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  #101  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
No buyer's premium
No consignment fees.


Attachment 317280
You forgot the 3rd one.

No auction house.



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  #102  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:25 AM
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With regard to what I said below, I'd be surprised if anyone found empirical evidence that people wind up paying more (all else being held constant i.e. same item etc.) when the auction format includes a BP. That being said, I'm sure it happens - people can get carried away in the moment and as this thread stayed alive it did get me to thinking about another point:

I think the BP is kind of "phony". It seems more genuine to me that the AH should just get a percentage of the final bid. I don't care how simple the math is, why make people do it? I've been in the situation before placing a bid and the BP wasn't shown on the bidding screen, so I had to go search what it was elsewhere on the website before making the bid. It was kind of annoying. And why? Just so the AH can "frame" their model as not charging the seller? There is evidence out there framing i.e. describing 2 equivalent options in different ways can result in people choosing differently. I guess if one AH dropped the BP, other AHs could use it for marketing and say "we don't charge the seller, consign with us." It would be nonsense, but it would probably happen.

It's never been a consideration for me buying or selling, but I would see it as an improvement if the BP went away.

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Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans View Post
This is actually an interesting academic question. Economics 101 would certainly tell you its completely irrational to behave differently because in one case the amount you pay is what you bid (plus shipping) and in the other case the amount you pay is what you bid + 20% + shipping. The rational thing to do is make the calculation of adding the BP and behave (bid) the same way in both cases (i.e. reduce your bid because you know you will be hit with a BP at checkout). Someone would need to do a study to see if people actually behave according to the theory or whether the fact that that 20% in not included in their bid induces them to pay more as if they are willing to momentarily forget they will be charged the 20% later. It's entirely possible, and also the reason I believe some auction houses want you to have to do the math in your head (or not do it), rather than show you the BP when you place your bid. I think its something called the framing effect where people view options that are really the same as different depending on how they are stated.

One minor point is because the bid increments are wider for AHs than eBay, sometimes I have to make a decision whether I want to go under or over my target - something I never really have to do on eBay where the bid increments are very narrow.

Last edited by TanksAndSpartans; 05-23-2018 at 08:43 AM.
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  #103  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:25 AM
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Why is that a bad thing for the auction house or the consignor?
It's not a bad thing for the auction house or the consignor. It's a great thing for them. This discussion is about the BP being bad for the buyer and why the buyer should pay for a service being delivered for free to the consignor. And for some whether the buyer is really paying for that service at all (Spoiler Alert: They are).

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Originally Posted by x2drich2000 View Post
I buy almost all the items I sell on Ebay from AH. How am I able to make money doing so if the AH with their 20% buyer's premium is more expensive
Because there is room on "lots" in the AH format. Bidding on lots is naturally lower because of the nature of items that get put together into lots. You're not getting a T206 Wagner in a lot with other cards. So "Lots" are perfect for resale. I will agree that I have made some great purchases on lots of pennants even with the BP factored in. I typically can sell off the excess in the lot and get the one I really wanted in the lot for pretty close to free. I doubt you're buying a single PSA 5 1953 Topps Mantle (or any other single item) at an AH and flipping for a profit on eBay.

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Originally Posted by x2drich2000 View Post
OK, lets take your premise that the BP doesn't suppress the bidding and follow the logic.
It's not a premise:

Most recent PSA 5 1953 Topps Mantle at Heritage:

https://sports.HA.com/itm/baseball/1...ype=share_btn_

Most recent PSA 5 1953 Topps Mantle at Ebay:


http://r.ebay.com/TqUFOY

http://r.ebay.com/3Cu8Ei

http://r.ebay.com/DHs7mR

http://r.ebay.com/CkXc3U

http://r.ebay.com/nKMPi6

http://r.ebay.com/r9bCu1

http://r.ebay.com/PZfZFd

Let me know how much money you would've made on this card.
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  #104  
Old 05-23-2018, 01:34 PM
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It's all marketing, guys. No matter how many math examples we run, the fact is that consignors hate hearing about a commission. That's why a high BP is the norm: most AHs will waive the commission for a decent consignment. Just like shipping. REA (hi Brian) doing the free shipping is brilliant because shipping pisses off so many customers. It is a minuscule part of the overall invoice from the AH in most cases but it feels like dirt in your eye, especially when the AH charges for insurance to value and you just know that they have a blanket insurance policy that covers to a set limit regardless of value, so it is a profit center.

Scott B is definitely spot-on about other fields and what AHs charge there. We are lucky that we (consignors) can usually get a no commission deal. Try selling an entertainment item; you are nearly always going to pay 35%+ total because the AHs that deal in those materials do not waive their commissions unless the item is astounding.

As for BP splits, well, if you are offering a $100K card for consignment, you have leverage to get a piece of the BP. Nothing wrong with that.

I am not surprised people use PWCC for some nicer stuff. It gets the eBay customer base of eyeballs, the rate is substantially lower than most AHs charge, and cards to cash is fast as compared to other outlets. I don't know what others experience, but it is very frustrating when I consign an item in January, not see it hit the blocks for months and not get paid for another 30-60 days. Particularly if I have a use for the funds and can't wait half a year or more to get to paid.
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Last edited by Exhibitman; 05-23-2018 at 01:36 PM.
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  #105  
Old 05-23-2018, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
you are nearly always going to pay 35%+ total because the AHs that deal in those materials do not waive their commissions unless the item is astounding.
Adam, great post - I found the same thing this morning when I did some research = "google searches" - the BP gives AHs the opportunity to split their take into two different accounting items.

Another interesting thing was I did find a couple studies that were a bit surprising - one implying a low BP, less than 5%, doesn't suppress bidder behavior and another that showed a 10% BP compared with no BP had a 9% impact i.e. bidders did not reduce their bids by the full BP, but interestingly they used this as evidence bidders will reduce bids when the BP is present because it was very close to a 1-1 reduction.

Last edited by TanksAndSpartans; 05-23-2018 at 07:00 PM.
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  #106  
Old 05-23-2018, 05:49 PM
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A study by Gerding, Rogers, Dash and Jennings at the University of Southampton (UK) titled “Sellers Competing for Buyers in Online Markets: Reserve Prices, Shill Bids, and Auction Fees” states, “Another popular type of auction fee is the buyer’s premium, which is paid by the winner of the auction and is a fraction of the closing price … note that a bidder with a given valuation will correct his/her bid … such that the bid plus the fee … is equal to the bidder’s valuation. Interestingly, since all buyers thus lower their bids, the seller ends up paying the fee even though the fee is originally charged to the buyers.”
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  #107  
Old 05-23-2018, 05:58 PM
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the study obviously was written by a bunch of auction house cronies who are very angry
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  #108  
Old 05-23-2018, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
"...Interestingly, since all buyers thus lower their bids, the seller ends up paying the fee even though the fee is originally charged to the buyers.”
Yeah but thats not Webster's definition of a bid so it can't be true
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  #109  
Old 05-23-2018, 06:23 PM
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just got a text from the troll. his shift under the bridge scaring weary travelers ends at 9. he will check in then.
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  #110  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:19 PM
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just got a text from the troll. his shift under the bridge scaring weary travelers ends at 9. he will check in then.

Old man humor. I love it. I feel like I'm being trashed talked to by this guy.

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  #111  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
A study by Gerding, Rogers, Dash and Jennings at the University of Southampton (UK) titled “Sellers Competing for Buyers in Online Markets: Reserve Prices, Shill Bids, and Auction Fees” states, “Another popular type of auction fee is the buyer’s premium, which is paid by the winner of the auction and is a fraction of the closing price … note that a bidder with a given valuation will correct his/her bid … such that the bid plus the fee … is equal to the bidder’s valuation. Interestingly, since all buyers thus lower their bids, the seller ends up paying the fee even though the fee is originally charged to the buyers.”
The University of Southhampton? What's the matter, couldn't find a study from Bangladesh? Don't get me wrong, who better to go to for insight on the bidding habits of Americans in the sports memorabilia market than the Brits...after all they were playing the game back when it was still known as BaseRock.

Amazing they know the thought process of "all bidders". Sounds like a thoughtful study.
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  #112  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:43 PM
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The rants of a guy on a chatboard who is a minority of one doubtless are more persuasive.
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  #113  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:53 PM
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"mom! the meat loaf! we want it now!"
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  #114  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:16 PM
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Tired issue. . . I've posted on it a number of times myself and mostly been told I'm wrong. I think AHs love the BP because it does lead to higher bidding prices. In a perfect world all buyers would religiously include the vig in their bids. They don't. Just like why someone says a meal at a restaurant cost us $100, and not $120 including a tip. People aren't perfect decision making machines. Particularly with regard to a discretionary purchase like a collectible that they are passionate about. But most people here are perfectly rational and analytical in their bidding approach so I may be in the minority.

I've also had more than a few drinks at charity auctions and overbid for crap that I really don't need.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 05-23-2018 at 08:18 PM.
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  #115  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Tired issue. . . I've posted on it a number of times myself and mostly been told I'm wrong. I think AHs love the BP because it does lead to higher bidding prices. In a perfect world all buyers would religiously include the vig in their bids. They don't. Just like why someone says a meal at a restaurant cost us $100, and not $120 including a tip. People aren't perfect decision making machines. Particularly with regard to a discretionary purchase like a collectible that they are passionate about. But most people here are perfectly rational and analytical in their bidding approach so I may be in the minority.

I've also had more than a few drinks at charity auctions and overbid for crap that I really don't need.
remind me to notify you of my next charity auction
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 05-23-2018 at 08:38 PM.
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  #116  
Old 05-25-2018, 03:34 PM
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the pain of the mind is much worse than the pain of the body...

just sayin'.
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