So what is up with Jim Rice...

[sbfinley]

and his signatures on his 1976 Topps card? I picked this card a while back for my signed Topps All-Star Rookie project:




It would appear at first glance my four year old signed it three and a half years ago. Whatever, it was cheap and it filled a hole. I didn't follow Rice that closely so I figured he must just have a crap signature - he's lazy, can't spell his own name, or he taught a young Jason Pierre-Paul how to ignite bottle rockets. Didn't care. Until I saw more and more cards signed like this:



That's a nice clean signature Jim. I guess my guy just caught you on real bad day, like "The Young and the Restless" got preempted that day bad. No worries I'll pick up another copy.

Except that....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JIM-RICE-SIG...item43e28085c9

You sign...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JIM-RICE-PSA...item541cae1c2f

This card...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JIM-RICE-SIG...item1c48fb2b32

Like you just rented the original VHS copy of the Ring at the last Blockbuster video in America.

There is one decent looking signature raw card on eBay at the moment, but I'm not sure I should:

A. Just screw it and keep the one I have because at the end of the day he's just Jim Rice.

or

B. Buy it at this absolute moment because of it's singular existence.


Okay, I'm done exaggerating. I'm sure there are plenty of nice signed copies of this card out there, but 90%+ have his garbage signature. While a quick glance at all other Rice signed cards shows he signs cleanly and legibly almost 90% of the time. What gives?

[djson1]

The other possibility is that the TPA just got it wrong. I know as an autograph hound kid, I used to hang around ballparks and wait for the players to come out. The few times I saw Jim Rice, he would NEVER sign autographs. In fact, he usually had somebody with him who would tell the kids that he is "not signing today".....which was almost every time. So, I don't know how they could authenticate that. Also, when he did do sit-down signings, his signature was pretty legible, like the second example you show. I've never seen him scribble like the first pic though. I find it strange that those 4 examples of the 1976 card are like that.

[39special]

I never saw a Rice signature that looked that bad.All of the signatures I have seen of his you could read,and were pretty nice.If that is his scribble,it's the first one I have seen.

[egri]

The three Rices I have all look like the 1983 Topps that was posted, not the scribble. This is rampant speculation on my part, but is it possible he really doesn't like the picture on his card? It doesn't seem to be a very good shot, and Rice is prickly in the best of times, maybe it just sets him off? I guess the thing to do is send in the 1976 AS and a different card to his next autograph signing, and compare the signatures.

As an aside, I've noticed there do seem to be some cards that are impossible to find signed, that theoretically should be easy to come by. Guys like George Crowe, Roy Mcmillan, Clyde Vollmer, I have yet to see on a 53 Topps, although they are readily available in other years.

[MooseDog]

I'll echo what Jason said. Rice would never sign in a crowd. I only got Rice one time, and I was the only one on the rail near the dugout at the time. He even looked around to make sure there wasn't anyone else in waiting.

The signature was not like the 76, he took his time and it was closer to the 83.

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by egri

The three Rices I have all look like the 1983 Topps that was posted, not the scribble. This is rampant speculation on my part, but is it possible he really doesn't like the picture on his card? It doesn't seem to be a very good shot, and Rice is prickly in the best of times, maybe it just sets him off? I guess the thing to do is send in the 1976 AS and a different card to his next autograph signing, and compare the signatures.

As an aside, I've noticed there do seem to be some cards that are impossible to find signed, that theoretically should be easy to come by. Guys like George Crowe, Roy Mcmillan, Clyde Vollmer, I have yet to see on a 53 Topps, although they are readily available in other years.

Here's a McMillan

[sbfinley]

Thanks for the replies. I was just dumbfounded today when I was searching his cards on eBay and literally every authenticated example of his 76' issue looked like that. Small sample size though, so maybe it's a coincidence.

[Bosox Blair]

I have an early 1980s Red Sox payroll check to Rice with his signature on it. It is like the one on the '83 Topps you show (except it is signed as James instead of Jim).

Those '76 ones are horrible.

Cheers,
Blair

[mrmopar]

I collect the signed trophy cards and have 3 of the 76 Rice cards signed and all are sloppy and large, looping signatures. Perhaps there are a bunch of fakes out there or maybe Rice just doesn't like to sign that card the same way he does the others. I met him at the 2001 Fan Fest and might have tried to get that card signed, but I didn't have access to my cards at the time and ended up with a freebie someone in line gave me, signed neat like most of his signature cards you seen.

[johnmh71]

I got him at an autograph show last year. He signed a multi-signed first day item. Perfect signature.

I'm thinking that he dislikes the card. He strikes me as the type of guy that would do that.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

I have an early 1980s Red Sox payroll check to Rice with his signature on it. It is like the one on the '83 Topps you show (except it is signed as James instead of Jim).

Those '76 ones are horrible.

Cheers,
Blair

Found a scan - 1986 payroll check:

[David Atkatz]

Why do you think for an instant that the scrawl was done by Rice? Because PSA said so?

Not much of a reason, when all evidence implies otherwise.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why do you think for an instant that the scrawl was done by Rice? Because PSA said so?

Not much of a reason, when all evidence implies otherwise.

Because option B: That a master forger got rich flooding the market with a stack of 1976 Topps Jim Rice cards not signed by Jim Rice nor the forger, but by the forger's pet chimp Bubbles - just doesn't seem plausible.

All jokes aside, no, I don't just follow PSA like a blind sheep. Please.... Give me more credit than that. I'm a Global guy.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why do you think for an instant that the scrawl was done by Rice? Because PSA said so?

Not much of a reason, when all evidence implies otherwise.

David - you know I value your opinion on a lot of things, but I gotta disagree with you here . Actually, I think all of the evidence presented thus far gives more credence to the theory that Rice signs his '76 Topps in a manner different than his other cards. In fact, I don't think anyone has posted a '76 Topps card signed with the "legible" version of the Jim Rice signature yet.

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by canjond

David - you know I value your opinion on a lot of things, but I gotta disagree with you here . Actually, I think all of the evidence presented thus far gives more credence to the theory that Rice signs his '76 Topps in a manner different than his other cards. In fact, I don't think anyone has posted a '76 Topps card signed with the "legible" version of the Jim Rice signature yet.

Let's just ask him. Rice currently works for NESN, the Red Sox-owned TV station. I wonder if a quick email or tweet will net a result....I'll attempt later today.

[7nohitter]

I emailed Rice and sent him a tweet...we'll see if there are any results, though I doubt it. I may have to reach out to a contact at NESN.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Thanks for the replies. I was just dumbfounded today when I was searching his cards on eBay and literally every authenticated example of his 76' issue looked like that. Small sample size though, so maybe it's a coincidence.

There are a few clean ones up today.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JIM-RICE-VIN...item5d5756df39

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HOF-JIM-RICE...item20ef97f974

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by canjond

David - you know I value your opinion on a lot of things, but I gotta disagree with you here . Actually, I think all of the evidence presented thus far gives more credence to the theory that Rice signs his '76 Topps in a manner different than his other cards. In fact, I don't think anyone has posted a '76 Topps card signed with the "legible" version of the Jim Rice signature yet.

Tell me how PSA could certify both examples shown by the OP. Even if a PSA authenticator saw with his own eyes Rice scribbling on his rookie card, how could he call that "signed," or "autographed"?

Suppose I had a piece of paper that Babe Ruth used to get the ink in his fountain pen flowing. You know, he just scribbled randomly until the pen began to write, and then kept scribbling a bit longer to make sure the pen kept working. Would PSA consider that a genuine Ruth autograph? Would anyone?

[sbfinley]

Did some searching while watching Mets/Dodgers. I half believe he hates his 76 issue and half believe it's just his "leave me alone" auto. David's "chimpanzees and toddlers are forging Jim Rice autos and PSA is letting them get away with it" it also a serious contender. Here are handful featuring his "FML" signature variation:





Here is the Rice from the Collect Auction that featured the Auto Topps Set Runs:




Here are the only three legible Rice's I could find including the two Paul linked:




Here is evidence that Jim Rice does not care to deface your stupid stupid cardboard not matter the year:

[7nohitter]

I wonder, too, if it's the evolution of his signature. Rice long had a reputation for being surly and unapproachable by both fans and media.

Is it possible that the 'scribbles' were obtained in the late '70's-early 80's?

Rice's demeanor changed significantly once his playing days were over, and even moreso as his name lingered on the HOF ballot year after year.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Suppose I had a piece of paper that Babe Ruth used to get the ink in his fountain pen flowing. You know, he just scribbled randomly until the pen began to write, and then kept scribbling a bit longer to make sure the pen kept working. Would PSA consider that a genuine Ruth autograph? Would anyone?

It certainly wouldn't count as an autograph, but presuming the authenticity on such an item was unquestioned, it might be a fun novelty piece to own.

Babe Ruth squiggles? Why not? As long as you don't pay too much for it, and I guess you also have to be in a frame of mind that you don't take the hobby too seriously.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

It certainly wouldn't count as an autograph...

But PSA said those squiggles on the cards (which are certainly not Rice's signature) are "authentic autographs." We agree the are not.

And how does PSA know that Rice made those squiggles? They are certainly not recognizable, or unique to Rice.

[MooseDog]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

It certainly wouldn't count as an autograph, but presuming the authenticity on such an item was unquestioned, it might be a fun novelty piece to own.

Babe Ruth squiggles? Why not? As long as you don't pay too much for it, and I guess you also have to be in a frame of mind that you don't take the hobby too seriously.

Actually, we may be splitting hairs here, but an "autograph", defined by "the act of writing with one's own hand" whereas as a "signature" would be defined "the handwritten representation of a person's name".

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Actually, we may be splitting hairs here, but an "autograph", defined by "the act of writing with one's own hand" whereas as a "signature" would be defined "the handwritten representation of a person's name".

Yes, I'm quite aware of that. But "writing" is defined as

writ·ing
ˈrīdiNG/
noun
1.
the activity or skill of marking coherent words on paper and composing text.
"parents want schools to concentrate on reading, writing, and arithmetic"
2.
written work, especially with regard to its style or quality.
"the writing is straightforward and accessible"

Thus scribbles are not "writing," and it follows that they are not an "autograph," either.