NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:00 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 1,646
Default Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

I had always considered Al Kaline to be a somewhat better player than Roberto Clemente, and objectively, the stats would seem to indicate that was true: Kaline--134 OPS+; .856 OPS; 15-time All-Star; 10 gold gloves; % runs created above league average of 154%. Clemente: 130 OPS+; .834 OPS; 12-time All-Star; 12 gold gloves; % runs created above league average of 142%.

Yet Karl Ravech's (clearly incorrect) statement on air recently that "Clemente built the Pirates' franchise" (ever hear of Honus Wagner, Karl, unanimously rated as the greatest shortstop of all time, linked with Cobb as the two best players of the first 20 years of the 1900-1920 era, and rated by Bill James as the second best player of all time) got me thinking. I perused my latest Heritage Auction catalog and found a great abundance of Topps Clemente cards in NrMT-Mt or better prominently featured. Obviously, the conclusion to be drawn therefrom is that he sells, and very, very well.

Has Clemente arrived within the inner circle of the elite, joining Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Gehrig, etc., or is he on his way? Certainly his untimely heroic death and legendary humanitarianism boosts his stock considerably. Has he come that far, though? All thoughts appreciated.

Regards to all,

Larry

Last edited by ls7plus; 07-10-2018 at 04:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:25 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 14,249
Default

I've always thought of Kaline and Clemente as roughly comparable with perhaps an edge to Clemente. But interestingly, on baseball reference, Kaline is not in the top ten for Clemente's similarity scores.
__________________
Buy high, sell low.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:33 PM
jerseygary's Avatar
jerseygary jerseygary is offline
G@ry Cier@dkowski
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 668
Default

I have no idea who Karl Ravech is, but I find that many present day sportswriters don't think baseball existed before Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris. Clemente might be the oldest Pirate player he knows of, that and Mazeroski is too hard to spell or pronounce. Research is hard for some people.
__________________
MY BASEBALL CARD PROJECT:
www.studiogaryc.com/baseball-blog/
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:37 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,219
Default

Post war he is the second easiest sale after Mantle IMHO. He sells faster than Mays and Aaron for me.
__________________
Great experience buying from edjs and mybuddyinc. Check out my ebay store, weird, eclectic, accurate, and reasonable! http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarian-Sports-Cards Also check out http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:49 PM
JustinD's Avatar
JustinD JustinD is offline
Ju$tin D@v3n.por+
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birmingham, Mi
Posts: 1,222
Default

On Karl Ravech and somewhat related:

While I totally agree with my statement on Clemente, I just remembered why this struck a chord.

Ravech is the idiot that on Jackie Robinson Day 2009 ended his piece on Jackie Robinson by saying, quote, "tragically lost his life in a plane crash delivering humanitarian supplies to Nicaragua". It was epic in it's stupidity.

So while Ravech is a twit, Clemente is top-5 postwar and maybe top-3.
__________________
- Justin D.


Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander.

Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-10-2018, 07:31 PM
glynparson's Avatar
glynparson glynparson is offline
Glyn Parson
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Blandon PA
Posts: 1,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
Post war he is the second easiest sale after Mantle IMHO. He sells faster than Mays and Aaron for me.
I agree 100% though Jackie is now also in the discussion. Especially since 42 came out and mlb retired his number. Mays Aaron and koufax seem to be the next level guys as far as demand goes.

Last edited by glynparson; 07-10-2018 at 07:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-10-2018, 07:36 PM
glynparson's Avatar
glynparson glynparson is offline
Glyn Parson
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Blandon PA
Posts: 1,747
Default Parker

I was just a few months old when Clemente died so I have to second peters statement that the best arm I personally saw was Dave Parker.

Last edited by glynparson; 07-10-2018 at 07:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:33 PM
JustinD's Avatar
JustinD JustinD is offline
Ju$tin D@v3n.por+
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birmingham, Mi
Posts: 1,222
Default

Not as far as the examples mentioned in the hobby. But certainly worked his way to Aaron hobby status.

I think taking away all the prewar examples you tossed out and focusing on postwar he is very likely top-5 and is relevant enough to be well known to the next generation of collectors.

Also, not to absolutely blow his cards out of the water in pricing. We have seen what has happened to Jackie's cards following the release of "42" which brought the story back in the limelight.

The same studio bought the rights to do a Clemente movie and hired director Ezra Edelman in February to direct it. It's a total go and should be coming out late next year or 2020. I would anticipate it would very much renew the interest to the casual person in the same way 42 did.

Roberto is not done.
__________________
- Justin D.


Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander.

Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:02 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 1,646
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinD View Post
Not as far as the examples mentioned in the hobby. But certainly worked his way to Aaron hobby status.

I think taking away all the prewar examples you tossed out and focusing on postwar he is very likely top-5 and is relevant enough to be well known to the next generation of collectors.

Also, not to absolutely blow his cards out of the water in pricing. We have seen what has happened to Jackie's cards following the release of "42" which brought the story back in the limelight.

The same studio bought the rights to do a Clemente movie and hired director Ezra Edelman in February to direct it. It's a total go and should be coming out late next year or 2020. I would anticipate it would very much renew the interest to the casual person in the same way 42 did.

Roberto is not done.
Very much look forward to seeing that one. I would also recommend the movie, "Chasing 3,000" (as I believe it was titled, about two teenagers originally from Pittsburgh who had to move to California with their mom and who just had to make their way back to Pittsburgh completely on their own in time to see Roberto get his 3,000th hit.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Larry

Last edited by ls7plus; 07-10-2018 at 05:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:05 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 1,646
Default

Gary, Karl Ravech is in the ESPN broadcast booth, usually with Tim Kerkjian and Eduardo Perez. And Justin, I agree that he is absolutely a "twit." He likes to spout out regarding matters of baseball history, but is very ill-prepared to do so.

Highest regards,

Larry
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OT sort of--The Post Office is the 9th Circle of Hell Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 18 08-13-2006 10:18 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:19 PM.


ebay GSB