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  #21  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:36 PM
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glynparson glynparson is offline
Glyn Parson
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Default Parker

I was just a few months old when Clemente died so I have to second peters statement that the best arm I personally saw was Dave Parker.

Last edited by glynparson; 07-10-2018 at 08:36 PM.
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  #22  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:48 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
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Originally Posted by pclpads View Post
Nobody, but nobody ever or now had / has the arm that RC had. Just a lazer shot for runners foolish enough to try stretching a double into a triple. Had he played another 4 years, I think he would now be the all time hits leader.
Not having read the whole thread yet I'm sure someone else has probably already pointed out that it is doubtful that he would have averaged 300 hits a year for his age 39, 40, 41 and 42 year old seasons. Just saying.
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  #23  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by kailes2872 View Post
300 hits per year for 4 years?
I knew it had to have been said.
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  #24  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:10 PM
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Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
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Originally Posted by pclpads View Post
Nobody, but nobody ever or now had / has the arm that RC had. Just a lazer shot for runners foolish enough to try stretching a double into a triple. Had he played another 4 years, I think he would now be the all time hits leader.
+1

...and his power numbers were somewhat suppressed by playing half his games...for many years in the cavernous Forbes field. I say somewhat suppressed because Clemente wasn't a pull-power hitter, but a slash, line-drive type.

I was so thankful to watch his diamond art-work in the '71 Series!

Not every truly great player has gaudy stats, though 3,000 hits is pretty damn gaudy!

The circumstances of his death left us wanting more...
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  #25  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:10 PM
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Great player for sure and certainly in the same category as some of the greats of the game but was not really superior as a ballplayer than Al Kaline, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Yaz, etc., etc. which are all IMO on the second tier of "All-Time Great" status. That being said Jackie Robinson is also not on tier one as a ballplayer.

Jackie and Roberto Clemente both transcend the sport they played in their own ways. For Jackie Robinson the reason is obvious, Clemente was perhaps the first truly great Latin American superstar at the Major League level and his star has continually risen over the past few decades. Back in the day when I first began collecting Clemente's cards were priced more along the lines of Kaline, Duke Snider, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks, and that group of players... below the level of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and obviously Mickey Mantle. There has certainly been a shift in the "power rankings" of players over the years.

On the flip-side of players like Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente & the Yankee Stars (Mantle, Jeter, DiMaggio, Maris, etc) are some great players that have great statistics and barely sell for more than the most common of Hall Of Famers. All these players mentioned in this paragraph tend to sell as collectibles for more than their statistical peers. It is all about demand.
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  #26  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:25 PM
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These things can be debated for generations, and no doubt many bars and pubs across the country have held the same debates that we do on this forum. It's fun and it's what we do as sports fans.

Now, I'm as big of a Clemente fan as any, and while I had not seen either Kaline or Clemente play in person (too young), it should be known that Kaline also was known for a rocket arm. Just read the cartoon on the back of his 54 Topps rookie card.

Also, if you have a minute, check out this passage from Bill Dow's blog article. Here's the excerpt on Kaline's arm:
In 22 seasons Kaline had 170 assists and had a TZR of 155. In 18 seasons Clemente had 266 assists and had a TZR of 204. No doubt that Kaline was one of the greatest defensive RF, but Clemente was in a class by himself.
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  #27  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:34 PM
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I saw the majority of Clemente's career but in the pre-cable days you only saw a player on TV a few times a season. I remember that everyone considered him an all-star caliber player but he was never mentioned among the top ten of his era.

I am a huge fan of his and as a 30 year member of SABR I'm tickled people think so highly of him now. As for the face of the franchise. There is Wagner and everyone else.

Of course in this time of ESPN and Fox labeling some hit or defensive play each night as one of the best of all-time I once again am glad that people think of him.

Even the NFL Network seldom recognizes anything pre-Super Bowl??????
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  #28  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:39 PM
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Howard Chasser
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Default Totally Biased, but....

I am a life long Clemente collector. I was never a huge sports fan nor did I get to see him play (that I can recall - I was 6 when he died). I became interested because even when I started collecting, his cards were worth more than common players, some of the "headlines of his life" were amazing, his cards were in a multitude of cool regional and test issues.

Clemente cards have definitely risen in popularity (and price). I believe much more rapidly than some of his statistical contemporaries. As has been touched on - In addition to him being a great player (Gold gloves, multiple time all star All Star, Batting leader, MVP, 2 world series, 3000 hits), the story of him working his ass off for the love of the game and making it to a professional level - is the fulfillment of what many a child has dreamed of, His breaking through early on of a barrier first broken a few years earlier by Jackie, and his need to deal with all the associated bs and his ability to handle and rise above it and the crazy circumstances surrounding his death while committing a huge act of compassion and selflessness I suspect will continue to push Clemente up the collected charts for a while to come.

I've heard talk of a movie for years - glad to hear it may be truly under way!

Clemente beyond being a great player - was a great role model - something SORELY lacking with many (not all)great athletes since. Just a really unique combination of great athlete and great human being.

Last edited by hcv123; 07-10-2018 at 09:40 PM.
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  #29  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:54 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhettyeakley View Post
Great player for sure and certainly in the same category as some of the greats of the game but was not really superior as a ballplayer than Al Kaline, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Yaz, etc., etc. which are all IMO on the second tier of "All-Time Great" status. That being said Jackie Robinson is also not on tier one as a ballplayer.

Jackie and Roberto Clemente both transcend the sport they played in their own ways. For Jackie Robinson the reason is obvious, Clemente was perhaps the first truly great Latin American superstar at the Major League level and his star has continually risen over the past few decades. Back in the day when I first began collecting Clemente's cards were priced more along the lines of Kaline, Duke Snider, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks, and that group of players... below the level of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and obviously Mickey Mantle. There has certainly been a shift in the "power rankings" of players over the years.

On the flip-side of players like Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente & the Yankee Stars (Mantle, Jeter, DiMaggio, Maris, etc) are some great players that have great statistics and barely sell for more than the most common of Hall Of Famers. All these players mentioned in this paragraph tend to sell as collectibles for more than their statistical peers. It is all about demand.
I beg to differ on Jackie. He had a 10 year career that only started when he was 28. In 10 years he put up a 61 WAR. Even with the late start he put up the 15th greatest 5 Year WAR in history 42.2. For traditionalists he won ROY and MVP a Batting Title had a career OBP over .400 and put up an .883 OPS career at Second Base. His MLB career basically started at the end of his prime. I think he should be recognized as tier one. For my money he's the second greatest 2b of all time. That's pretty first tier to me.
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  #30  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:07 PM
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CW CW is online now
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
In 22 seasons Kaline had 170 assists and had a TZR of 155. In 18 seasons Clemente had 266 assists and had a TZR of 204. No doubt that Kaline was one of the greatest defensive RF, but Clemente was in a class by himself.
Hmmm, so you're the guy at the bar who always pulls his phone out to have stats to back up his argument.

Seriously, though, that's some interesting information. I just spent about 15 minutes learning about total zone runs. Good stuff and point well taken.
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