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  #41  
Old 07-11-2018, 07:04 AM
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Griffey, Vlad and Bo were none too shabby.
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  #42  
Old 07-11-2018, 07:26 AM
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Default Roberto's Arm

A picture (video) is worth a thousand words. There's a video of a throw he made earlier in his career that was even better, but I could not find it. I was a nine year old base ball fanatic in 1971, and was blown away by what he did in that World Series

https://youtu.be/-WnfqgOsR6A

I also agree with the previous poster who mentioned Dwight Evan's arm. The best I ever seen in person
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Last edited by obcbobd; 07-11-2018 at 07:31 AM.
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  #43  
Old 07-11-2018, 07:58 AM
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Had he played another 4 years, I think he would now be the all time hits leader.

He would have to average 315 hits a year......
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  #44  
Old 07-11-2018, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
I beg to differ on Jackie. He had a 10 year career that only started when he was 28. In 10 years he put up a 61 WAR. Even with the late start he put up the 15th greatest 5 Year WAR in history 42.2. For traditionalists he won ROY and MVP a Batting Title had a career OBP over .400 and put up an .883 OPS career at Second Base. His MLB career basically started at the end of his prime. I think he should be recognized as tier one. For my money he's the second greatest 2b of all time. That's pretty first tier to me.
From age 28 to 37, Roberto Clemente put up 69 WAR, 8 more than Jackie.
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  #45  
Old 07-11-2018, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
From age 28 to 37, Roberto Clemente put up 69 WAR, 8 more than Jackie.
My point was that he ONLY had those 10 years to accumulate stats. When a career starts at 28 you have clearly missed a number of prime years. Plus there's the fact that Jackie was a second baseman not an outfielder. Also none of what I said was a knock on Roberto, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was one of the top 2 outfielders of all-time while one could certainly make that argument for Jackie at 2b.
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  #46  
Old 07-11-2018, 08:43 AM
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It is an interesting argument. It all really depends on how you define inner circle. Clemente would have a very good augment for the all time national league all star team, starting along side Mays and Aaron, especially if you move Musial to first and depending on your opinion and stand on Barry Bonds. Does that make him inner circle? OTOH, he probably would not be in the top 10 outfielder of all time if viewed objectively, though in the neighborhood. So far as Kaline goes, he was more spectacular though perhaps not quite as consistent. He started slowly and Kaline started fast which might account for the difference. He has a much larger persona than many players who are arguably statically better than he.
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  #47  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:29 AM
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I thought the OPs original thoughts were geared toward the collecting universe not stats.

Stats arguments and comparisons are rarely concrete or objective. It's mostly bar talk.

My comments were geared toward collector demand and collectability. Based on those parameters I don't think the others mentioned surpass Clemente. Parker is relegated to the dollar box and while here in Detroit, I can lay out a table of Kalines and sell them all, eBay sales do not match that demand. Clemente out paces Kaline sales by a country mile.

This that was said earlier is my experience:

Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
From my past experience over the last 10 years when a collector goes to sell his post war collection there are 3 guys he least wants to part with. This is how I gauge long term value.

1. Mantle
2. Jackie
3. Clemente

It’s a shame but people don’t have as hard of time letting go
Of Mays, Aaron, and Koufax.
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Last edited by JustinD; 07-11-2018 at 09:30 AM.
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  #48  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
My point was that he ONLY had those 10 years to accumulate stats. When a career starts at 28 you have clearly missed a number of prime years. Plus there's the fact that Jackie was a second baseman not an outfielder. Also none of what I said was a knock on Roberto, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was one of the top 2 outfielders of all-time while one could certainly make that argument for Jackie at 2b.
I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.
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  #49  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:50 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinD View Post
I thought the OPs original thoughts were geared toward the collecting universe not stats.

Stats arguments and comparisons are rarely concrete or objective. It's mostly bar talk.

My comments were geared toward collector demand and collectability. Based on those parameters I don't think the others mentioned surpass Clemente. Parker is relegated to the dollar box and while here in Detroit, I can lay out a table of Kalines and sell them all, eBay sales do not match that demand. Clemente out paces Kaline sales by a country mile.

This that was said earlier is my experience:

Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
From my past experience over the last 10 years when a collector goes to sell his post war collection there are 3 guys he least wants to part with. This is how I gauge long term value.

1. Mantle
2. Jackie
3. Clemente

Itís a shame but people donít have as hard of time letting go
Of Mays, Aaron, and Koufax.
+11
Yup I thought we were talking about collecting too.

Still a lot of cool stats that are blowing my mind.
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  #50  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pclpads View Post
As the late Mr. Dangerfield said, "tough crowd, tough crowd." For all you wizards of the keyboard - like the above - who piped in, like jackals waiting to pounce on the latest innocuous mistake, I offer a mea culpa. I neglected to note his age, thinking he was younger than 37 when he passed. So, 300 hits for four years at that age would be inconceivable even for the great RC. However, couldn't help noting there - so far - are no rebukes to my comment re: his cannon-like arm. Hello? Anybody? Tough to dispute that one, eh?
A poor manís Andruw Jones. Thatís all, a poor manís Andruw Jones.
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