HOF Numbers Game: The Accumulators

[dgo71]

Guess we can talk about Harold Baines here now.

Kind of fitting he gets in along with Lee Smith since January will likely bring two other players prominently known for being a designated hitter and reliever.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

When he hit .301?

Wow! Uh, No!

He won the Triple Crown and led the Red Sox to their first pennant in 21 years.

Led the league in the following categories:

R-112; H-189; HR-44(tied); RBI- 121; BA- .326; OBP- .418; SLG- .622; OPS- 1.040; OPS+- 193; TB- 360; WAR- 12.5

His Sept/Oct slash was .417/.504/.760

Boston lost WS in 7, but Yaz's line was 24AB-10H-3HR-5RIBI .400/.500/.840

Definitely Not an Accumulator's type year.



He hit .301 the following year leading the league and also leading with 119 walks.


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[drcy]

When he was playing, I would say Brett Favre was the best quarterback active. It could be reasonably argued there were better on the field players, but Favre played every game and even an average quarterback in the game is worth more than Johnny Unitas or Dan Marino on the sideline. Plus, he was a great quarterback anyway.

So longevity and games played is itself a desirable quality to the team. Though that's not to be confused with me saying that longevity and "accumulation" make a player a HOFer. I certainly don't think Harold Baines is a HOFer, no matter how many years and games he played.

[999Tony]

Not fair to Biggio to call him an accumulator or compare him to DH Baines without a positional adjustment.

Not much below the average 2b peak or career in the HOF:
65.5 career WAR / 41.8 7yr-peak WAR / 53.7 JAWS
Average HOF 2B (out of 20):
69.5 career WAR / 44.5 7yr-peak WAR / 57.0 JAWS

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by drcy

When he was playing, I would say Brett Favre was the best quarterback active. It could be reasonably argued there were better on the field players, but Favre played every game and even an average quarterback in the game is worth more than Johnny Unitas or Dan Marino on the sideline. Plus, he was a great quarterback anyway.

So longevity and games played is itself a desirable quality to the team. Though that's not to be confused with me saying that longevity and "accumulation" make a player a HOFer. I certainly don't think Harold Baines is a HOFer, no matter how many years and games he played.

IMO, Comparing longevity in Football and Baseball is like...well...

Comparing Apples and Zagnut Bars.

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[rats60]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Not fair to Biggio to call him an accumulator or compare him to DH Baines without a positional adjustment.

Not much below the average 2b peak or career in the HOF:
65.5 career WAR / 41.8 7yr-peak WAR / 53.7 JAWS
Average HOF 2B (out of 20):
69.5 career WAR / 44.5 7yr-peak WAR / 57.0 JAWS

Baines OPS + 121 Biggio OPS + 112. If Baines is an accumulator, as most would agree, then so are those who were worse hitters. Using Baines hit total as the floor, you get

Baines 121
Pete Rose 118
Beltre 116
Jeter 115
Yount 115
Biggio 112
Sam Rice 112
Ripken 112
Frisch 110
Brock 109
Ichiro 107
Vizquel 82

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other accumulators: Molitor maybe? Yaz, to some extent. Vizquel for sure. Colon. Moyer. Kaat.

Molitor was one of the most exciting guys to play the game. And, had he not been injured so often early in his career, he'd have challenged Cobb's all-time hits record.

If Molitor is a compiler, so was Pete Rose.

Yaz? I can see it, but for a time, he was probably the best player in the game. The problem is that the second half of his career wasn't exceptional. But if we're talking a combination of both offense and defense, in his prime, he was fantastic.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the 'Stache sees this all hell will break loose.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And the innocent Ryan Braun.

Yount's inarguably one of the top five shortstops to ever play the game. And before he hurt his shoulder, he was one of the top two or three players in baseball. Shortstops just didn't hit for that kind of power, and play incredible defense, at the same time. You had guys like Ernie Banks who could crush the ball, and was pretty good with the glove, but he couldn't do all the things Yount could. Wagner is the Gold standard. But after that, Yount's not far behind anyone else who's ever played the position.

There's NO comparison between Baines and Yount. None. Baines, in 22 seasons (20 full ones) finished 9th and 10th in the MVP. Yount was an MVP at short and center field, two of the three toughest defensive positions in baseball. Baines by no stretch of the imagination should be a Hall of Famer, and that he is in now further waters down what has become a joke.

And nowhere have I ever said that Ryan Braun was innocent. He screwed up, broke the rules, and deserved to be suspended. The narrative I've always pushed was that he didn't need PEDs to be a great player, and that he didn't take a PED. He took a banned substance to heal an injury. Dumb, and illegal, per baseball's rules, but not the same thing as a performance enhancer. Before he had the nerve damage in his hand, he was one of the very best hitters in baseball. After his positive test, and with baseball testing him/watching him under a microscope, he put up a season nearly as good as his 2011 MVP one. Led the league NL in home runs, and with a .987 OPS, only 7 points lower than the prior season.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by rats60

Baines OPS + 121 Biggio OPS + 112. If Baines is an accumulator, as most would agree, then so are those who were worse hitters. Using Baines hit total as the floor, you get

Baines 121
Pete Rose 118
Beltre 116
Jeter 115
Yount 115
Biggio 112
Sam Rice 112
Ripken 112
Frisch 110
Brock 109
Ichiro 107
Vizquel 82

In defense of Yount, his first 700 games, he had an 89 OPS. He was a full-time player at age 18, long before medicine and training had guys hitting the ground running at such a young age. He didn't know if he wanted to be a baseball player, or a golfer. Once he decided, and started adding weight training to his exercise regiment, he took off. From age 24 to 34, he was a .305 hitter, and OPS +'d 135. For those ten seasons, his 162 game averages: 108 runs scored, 194 hits, 38 doubles, 10 triples, 20 home runs, 92 RBI, 17 stolen bases, .365/.485/.850. Considering, especially, that this is between 1980 and 1989, those numbers for a shortstop/center fielder are pretty exceptional.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yaz had two great years, 67 and 70. Other than those years and a pretty good year in 69 though his BA went way down, the first half of his career wasn't so spectacular either.