It is Sickening how badly PWCC Shill Bids!

[MantleBham]

What I don’t get is this. Shill bidding or not is irrelevant. They couldn’t have a viable business unless someone at the end of the chain is paying. It might be the second chance offer, but someone is paying a highly inflated price in the end.

Why?

PWCC auctions routinely close higher than many BIN listings, who the hell is bidding above the BIN from other sellers?

That’s insanely stupid!

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC has very high visibility and they do a very nice job with their auctions and have a loyal following, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they get strong prices relative to other ebay sellers. What I have never really grasped, though, is some of the crazy premiums they seem to get for commodity cards. I get irrational exuberance on genuinely difficult cards, we're all guilty of that.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PWCC has very high visibility and they do a very nice job with their auctions and have a loyal following, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they get strong prices relative to other ebay sellers. What I have never really grasped, though, is some of the crazy premiums they seem to get for commodity cards. I get irrational exuberance on genuinely difficult cards, we're all guilty of that.

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

My experience with them has been the opposite. The last higher end card I sent Brent I first listed here, dropped the price and would have accepted a slightly lower offer, and it ended up selling for more than my original ask. Without being shilled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With that many cards on the auction block, experiences are going to vary. I don't think the fact that some guys did relatively poorly means that every strong price is shilled. At the same time, I have seen some that leave me shaking my head and some bidding patterns that looked pretty damn suspicious and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were consignors running up their own.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Some thoughts without mentioning company names so I don’t get in trouble:

-the sniping service I use is authorized by eBay - about a year or so ago, I had to reregister with them as they are now an “eBay service” so I had to agree to let them place bids for me - if eBay was trying to prevent sniping, they wouldn't allow these services. I'm surprised how many savvy eBay buyers are out there - I've bid on mundane (non collectables) stuff like old gaming systems - not super old (Wii and PS3) and all the real bidding still takes place at the end

-eBay bidding history is pretty transparent, so its not hard to look at schilling on a case by case basis. Sometimes if I win a card I want, I don’t look at the history - it doesn’t do much good to see the underbidder has 0 feedback and 96% with the same seller.

-When I do look, I believe I have seen cases where the schillers were brazen enough to snipe. It doesn’t make it right to call it a “hidden reserve”. According to the rules I’m bidding under, there is no reserve, so if a card sells lower than I’m willing to pay - I’m supposed to get the benefit of that "saving" - its fraud if I'm cheated out of that.

-I suspect if the schillers do successfully win a snipe, they don't pay which I think is unique to eBay because I think for auction houses, the bid is binding. Why can't eBay do that? Why is it so easy to get out of paying? If it wasn't, it may cut down on shady behavior.

-I had a eBay seller once tell me that they can’t block “new bidders”. I can see that for small time sellers, but for the larger sellers, you would think requiring a minimum feedback would at least discourage “small time” schilling

[bensie]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

Exactly. I both buy from and sell with PWCC. I set my buy price at my comfort level and forget about it. With selling, most of the cards sell for what I expect. However, you do get a few outliers both high and low. It's the nature of the auction format, the fact that these cards aren't a commodity, and a myriad of other factors.

[Neal]

4SC cards are often priced low …. and are BUY IT NOWS (like most everything)

PWCC are true auctions, which is rare nowadays. PWCC always auctions great stuff - so of course the bid percentage is very high with them as they are one of the only games in town

Not defending them, but like many, will continue to buy from them

[Marchillo]

Bid percentage isn't the best indication of foul play. I am sure I have a really high bid percentage with Greg Morris. I'll buy starter lots from the 50's and 60's and then at some point I need to start buying singles. They do so many set breaks of the years in my wheelhouse I could place 2-3 bids on 30-40 items in one night maybe win 10-15 of them. I always go this route because buying singles from multiple sources creates way too many shipping charges. Their format is perfect for what I am doing.

But then look at my bid retractions and I've never had a single one.

I buy from plenty of other sellers but when I am on a GM run I bid a lot in a short period of time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For me, the best sign to avoid an auction is when it runs up to 80 or 90 percent right out of the gate. That suggests to me people are probably running up their own, or at least it seems like a good possiblity. It NEVER happens when I list cards. Usually stuff is below 50 percent with a day to go or even an hour to go. It rarely happens with certain sellers I trust and know.

[MantleBham]

Originally Posted by Neal

4SC cards are often priced low …. and are BUY IT NOWS (like most everything)

PWCC are true auctions, which is rare nowadays. PWCC always auctions great stuff - so of course the bid percentage is very high with them as they are one of the only games in town

Not defending them, but like many, will continue to buy from them

Do you enjoy the 4SC and PWCC office Christmas parties?

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by mantlebham

do you enjoy the 4sc and pwcc office christmas parties?

:d:d:d

[Neal]

Originally Posted by MantleBham

Do you enjoy the 4SC and PWCC office Christmas parties?

never invited …. oh well

but a small percentage of my collection comes from PWCC, and probably close to half of my 80s to 90s slabs come from 4SC


I think for myself, set numbers in my head, and don't whine like a bitch about either company ….

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by MantleBham

What I don’t get is this. Shill bidding or not is irrelevant. They couldn’t have a viable business unless someone at the end of the chain is paying. It might be the second chance offer, but someone is paying a highly inflated price in the end.

Why?

PWCC auctions routinely close higher than many BIN listings, who the hell is bidding above the BIN from other sellers?

That’s insanely stupid!

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

It's not rocket science,. It boils down to fleecing new consignors Into sending items that do sell for real bids, much lower than last sales.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by MantleBham

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

Cards are not fungible. The 4SC 9 may have been more obviously defective than the PWCC card.

However, I do agree with the first part of your post. Shilling isn't a viable business model. If you guys are so convinced that they shill and push the value of the auctions artificially high, then the answer is simple. Buy from somewhere else and then consign your cards with PCCC to exploit what you think is their unfair advantage.