T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[parkerj33]

Hey Ted.

In another thread you posted a pic of 12 150-only cards, and seemed to imply that they must have been on the same sheet. Maybe I misread your implication, but I don't see how you can conclude that because there were 11 150-only cards that weren't extended into the 150/350 series, that they then must have been on the same sheet.

Here is my reasoning: ATC puts together ~150 (156) cards for the first series....They are randomly organized into sheets (maybe 12 wide, maybe not....) for printing and then for back "assignment".

Turns out that out of those ~150, a few errors, mistakes and problems arise...guys die, guys leave the big leagues, Plank/wagner, Magie/Magee, etc. When they laid out the original sheets in april 1909, they would have had no idea which random images would need to later be excised....

So my contention, is that when they decided to expand to 350 cards...they just took the first ~12 or so from the proposed new sheets and inserted them into the existing sheets as replacements for the non-extended subjects. maybe they had 9 to replace, but since they had sheets of 12, they replaced 12 people from the 150series sheet layouts.

respectfully, jim.

[tedzan]

Hi Jim

I'm not quite sure of the point you are making. Let me think about it before I respond. I'm away right now, and I'll try to give you an answer later today.

I'm guessing that you re referring to this illustration of mine ?

150-only Series

American Lithographic introduced the T206 set during the Spring of 1909 by printing these 12 cards then shipped them to T-Factory's____




TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[parkerj33]

yes, my point was that i think you were implying that since those 12 were discontinued, then they must have been on the same sheet together. I don't think that ALC was "lucky" enough in laying out the sheets initially, to fortuitously group all the subjects that eventually had reason to be discontinued, when those reasons would not have been known at the time the sheets were laid out.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by parkerj33

Hey Ted.

In another thread you posted a pic of 12 150-only cards, and seemed to imply that they must have been on the same sheet. Maybe I misread your implication, but I don't see how you can conclude that because there were 11 150-only cards that weren't extended into the 150/350 series, that they then must have been on the same sheet.

Here is my reasoning: ATC puts together ~150 (156) cards for the first series....They are randomly organized into sheets (maybe 12 wide, maybe not....) for printing and then for back "assignment".

Turns out that out of those ~150, a few errors, mistakes and problems arise...guys die, guys leave the big leagues, Plank/wagner, Magie/Magee, etc. When they laid out the original sheets in april 1909, they would have had no idea which random images would need to later be excised....

So my contention, is that when they decided to expand to 350 cards...they just took the first ~12 or so from the proposed new sheets and inserted them into the existing sheets as replacements for the non-extended subjects. maybe they had 9 to replace, but since they had sheets of 12, they replaced 12 people from the 150series sheet layouts.

respectfully, jim.

Hi Jim.....excuse my delay in responding, as we had a 5-hour power failure last night.

American Litho (ALC) started planning the T206 designs for the 150 Series in 1908-09. But started their presses rolling with just these 12 subjects (in post #1359) in Spring of 1909.

Throughout the remainder of 1909, ALC cranked out 144 more 150 Series subjects. These little Tobacco cards became so popular, that ALC extended many of them into 1910, when
they started printing the 350 Series cards. ALC continued printing many of this group of 144 cards, but with PIEDMONT 350, SOVEREIGN 350, SWEET CAP 350, etc. on their backs.

I'm not sure that I have answered your question. If not, I'll try again.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Jim.....excuse my delay in responding, as we had a 5-hour power failure last night.

American Litho (ALC) started planning the T206 designs for the 150 Series in 1908-09. But started their presses rolling with just these 12 subjects (in post #1359) in Spring of 1909.

Throughout the remainder of 1909, ALC cranked out 144 more 150 Series subjects. These little Tobacco cards became so popular, that ALC extended many of them into 1910, when
they started printing the 350 Series cards. ALC continued printing many of this group of 144 cards, but with PIEDMONT 350, SOVEREIGN 350, SWEET CAP 350, etc. on their backs.

I'm not sure that I have answered your question. If not, I'll try again.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Ted, I disagree with this for many reasons but to keep it simple here's one, Wagner wasn't in the initial printing if he was he we be found with factory issued Piedmont 150's.

[parkerj33]

Ted, i am asking really, why do you think these 12 were the very first ones printed? What is the evidence to draw that conclusion?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by parkerj33

Ted, i am asking really, why do you think these 12 were the very first ones printed? What is the evidence to draw that conclusion?

Jim

The evidence is only five T206 brands printed on the backs of the 150-only Series cards that distinguishes them from the 150/350 Series cards,
which were printed with an assortment of PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAPORAL backs, and EL PRINCIPE de GALES, HINDU, OLD MILL backs.
Of course....Plank and Wagner were only printed with PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL.




TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty


I found two more blue Wagners stashed away in my archived stack of T206's. These two increase my total up to 14 blue Wagner's.

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I started this thread's title.... "Can't afford the orange Wagner".... it occasionally reminds me of when I first got back into this hobby in the late 1970's.
Back then, I could afford to buy a half a dozen Orange Wagner's. I had a great salary working as a Senior Electronics Engineer at Bell Laboratories in NJ.





TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty


I found one more blue Wagner hiding in my archived stack of graded T206's. This one increases my total of blue Wagner's to 12 with different Tobacco advertisements.

.



I started this thread's title with..... "Can't afford the orange Wagner" ..... it occasionally reminds me of when I first got back into this hobby in the late 1970's.
Back then, I could afford to buy a half a dozen Orange Wagner's. I had a fantastic salary working as a Senior Electronics Engineer at Bell Laboratories in NJ.




.

Last nite, I received an email from a Net54 reader (I dislike the term "lurker" ). He wanted to know what the going price of a T206 Hans Wagner was back in those days.

I got back into this great hobby in 1977 (thanks to my teenage Daughters....Debbie and Zoe). Circa 1977, a Vg-Ex Wagner was selling in the ballpark of 4K - 6K.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty


Hey guys,

Lately, I've been receiving more than the usual number of Emails via Net54 Contact Info online feature (I don't do PM's) regarding this topic: "Orange and Blue Wagner's".
Or other topics in this T206 REFERENCE thread.

If for whatever reason you don't feel like publicly posting your questions (or comments) here, email me directly...... tedzan11@comcast.net
I will do my best to respond to you as soon as I can.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.