The SCDA trip

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Aaron, do you think I like eating crow? I'm eating it....I was wrong on this bat. Robert Plancich posted things to this board as if they were fact that were shown to us with hard evidence to just be flat out wrong. Mastro nor SCDA were set up to give us a tour for this....I asked them for a tour. I sincerely hope that this does go to court now so the rest of you will be able to see the evidence for yourselves. For now you can take your snarky comments and shove 'em up your ass.

Dan

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Posted By: Aaron

"For now you can take your snarky comments and shove 'em up your ass."

Okay, so long as you don't confuse my ass with SCDA's and start kissing it.

Anyway, I don't see why you have to get so upset. I hope I get a chance to tour the MastroNet facilities while I'm in Chicago myself. It sounded like alot of fun.

Besides, we are in agreement about the legal proceeding. I think we can fruitlessly debate the topic back and forth, but that's going to be an appropriate venue to shed real light on the issues in an impartial setting.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Your confusing kissing SCDA's ass with forming an opinion based on facts. I knew that there were going to be some people who were not going to change their minds no matter what. I got Robert's side of the story here on Network 54, and I went to Chicago and got the other side of the story. I formed an educated opinion. You on the other hand have not. You have only made assumptions about me and the others involved. You're an anonymous ******* posting on the internet. Hardly worth my time. Carry on.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

Dan, I think you should chill. In one of if not your first posts on this thread you take a shot at anyone who would call this a dog and pony show. Well, the only one to use that term is your fellow traveler Jay, who used it in the first line of the first post. So too Jay takes swipes at those who have formed a different opinion on the bat, or who even question the presentation you were given, claiming that your integrity is being impugned. At least he doesn't tell folks to shove it--does that make you feel better?

I agree with others that the matter can be disputed. You claim that Plancich was caught in lies, and you give two examples. First you claim it is undeniable that JoeD batted both label up and label down, which Plancich says never happened. I'll give you that one, although personally I always thought it unlikely that JoeD batted every single time one way or the other over his career, particularly as ballplayers are notoriously quirky about trying things to break slumps. Second you claim the videotape is devoid of leading questions and Plancich Lied about that, "unless he saw a different video". Well, maybe he did, given some of the things that concededly occurred as to editing. Also, are you a litigator? I can tell you that I know lawyers here in Phoenix (and thus presumably everywhere) who could ask questions in such a way that the guy would admit to being Benjamin Franklin and in possession of the kite. Under the circumstances, I hardly think it's out of line to question the contents of the video.

So have you really unmasked Plancich as a charlatan, and debunked the underlying premise that the bat is not a streak gamer? Please allow me to be unconvinced, for although I believe you and Jay believe it, and I have no problems with your motivations, the question remains unresolved to me.

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Posted By: Aaron

Dan, what's with all the name-calling? I just don't know why you are so ashamed of yourself. With everything they were throwing at you guys, it's easy to understand how you could be so manipulated.

I mean whether you believe their authentication of the streak bat was valid or not, it doesn't change any of their policies of undisclosed conflict of interest, and to me that's a major issue that SCDA and their client auction houses just don't get. But who cares, at least you guys got a free lunch!

Anyway, I'm in the process of negotiating my visit with SCDA as we speak, but I'm not budging unless I get a tour of the MastroNet facility or Bill Mastro's personal collection. Otherwise, what's the point?

And I'm going to be open about my impending gushing about SCDA and Mastro. If I get the tour (and especially if I get my travel expenses to the National paid for), I'm going to have nothing but positives to say, as such: "Conflict of interest? What conflict of interest?" and "Hey, authenticators have to feed their families, too." Etc.

BTW, did they give you guys any freebies to take home? (I still have a Mastro tape measure I got at the National a couple years ago, but I bet you have that beat!)

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Posted By: Nuff Sed

How about it Jay, your video recording will speak for itself.
After all, you're not going to edit what you tape. .... are you???

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

if they haven't already, and that's examining Mr. Henrich's past. I truly am not here to pick on a 93 year old, especially as I am a Yankees fan who loves reading about those old great teams. Still, has anyone looked at his activities over the past 25 years or so? A streak bat would have been a very hot and valuable commodity for at least that long.

I say this because if Henrich attended card shows, old-timers events and other Yankee re-union functions, it would have been apparent, I would think, that anything Dimaggio-related was highly valuable, and anything streak related even moreso. Just sitting and talking to his old teammates and witnessing the various prices being paid by those in attendance would alert someone that all old Yankee stuff is a gold mine. Now, if he was there at a number of events over so many years (and I'm not saying he was), wouldn't something have sparked in his memory to look into whether he had some old game-used stuff from back in the day? Isn't it odd that so much time passed before this bat surfaces--with the old "I forgot"?

I know it would be hard to prove anything from such an examination, but it is at least relevant and in my view probative.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The "dog and pony show" comment goes back to a thread started a few weeks ago. The video is a sticking point as I would like to see unedited video of that and I'm sure that is something that will be subpeonaed if this goes to court. As I said earlier I still would not have given this bat an A-10, but there was so much thrown around in this forum that was just plain wrong about a lot of things. The pbor's are still owned by H&B and Bushing only has copies of them and he doesn't even have all of the records. He does have access to them though. It was said that he paid $30,000 to the Henrich family for the bat. That was wrong. Much of this stuff was printed by Michael O'Keefe in the New York paper. It was said that Mastro was misleading in how they characterized the relationship between DiMaggio and Henrich and their is no evidence to show this.

I came to the forum to report my conclusions having seen and heard both sides of the story. I don't need snarky comments questioning my integrity from someone who doesn't know me. This forum should be proud that they helped foster change in the hobby regarding disclosure of ownership of authenticated items.

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Posted By: Aaron

Todd: Those are interesting points. My question, however, would be why Henrich only remembered after the bat was purchased by Dave Bushing?

I mean, if Henrich or his family wanted to benefit financially, wouldn't he have imparted this information to his daughter prior to her selling the bat to Bushing for approximately $35,000, considering Bushing was then able to sell the bat for close to $300,000?

It seems to me that Bushing (and MastroNet via their commissions) benefited from Henrich's recollections more than Henrich did. Although, perhaps that's not the case, as Jay and Dan claim the Henrich's were later cut in on the final sale.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Great questions Aaron. You would have the answer to both of those had you been there. But since you're arranging a visit with them at the National I'll let SCDA answer them for you.

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Posted By: Rob L

This is great!!

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Posted By: Aaron

"This forum should be proud that they helped foster change in the hobby regarding disclosure of ownership of authenticated items."

What change?

Setting aside the streak bat, this much is known:

SCDA and its individual authenticators long practiced self-authentication of items they owned, which were then consigned to auction houses without the conflict of interest being disclosed to potential bidders.

This was publicly revealed last month.

After this was revealed, SCDA responded by instituting a policy whereby AFTER the winning bidder has won and received his item a box will be "checked" to indicate SCDA or one of its authenticators owned the item. The winning bidder then has thirty days to prove the item is NOT authentic (and he or she has to not only prove a negative but also pay for the costs associated with evaluating the item again and then run the risk of Mastro/SCDA not accepting his contrary findings).

SCDA's individual authenticators still refuse to stop their practice of authenticating items they sell.

Auction houses (namely Mastro) still refuse to identify an item as having been self-authentivcated by the consignor in the item description so that potential bidders can be made aware of the conflict of interest PRIOR to bidding (when it matters most as this is when the bidder makes his decision of whether to bid or not and how much to bid).

SCDA still refuses to withhold authentication services from auction houses who won't disclose their conflict of interest beforehand.

SCDA still refuses to withhold consignments from auction houses who won't disclose their conflict of interest beforehand.

I have asked SCDA to institute these policies both in this forum and via private e-mail. So far to no avail. So a system is still in place where a bidder purchases an item only to find out after the fact that the item's LOA was obtained from the consignor himself. I suspose this is better than not knowing at all, but to me this still falls far short of adequaltely addressing the problem, since the conflict of interest remains undisclosed when bids occur.

If these discrepancies change, then yes, we can say we have affected change. Otherwise, I believe they have simply taken the path of least resistance that is least threatening to the current auction system and their financial interest in it.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Aaron, you are wrong on at least one of your assertions. I won't tell you which one though because my opinion was bought and paid for with a free lunch and a tour of Mastronet that was well worth spending half a day in various airports for. You'll just have to find out for yourself at the National.

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Posted By: Aaron

Well, I wouldn't hold your breath--Troy's stopped responding to my e-mails.

But I will put this out there to whomever is reading:

I will be in Chicago from Thursday through Saturday of the National. I will be available at any time during my stay to meet with MastroNet and/or SCDA representatives other than Friday afternoon when I will be attending a Cubs game.

My only conditions are:

1. The meeting takes place at MastroNet's offices or in Bill Mastro's home. (Otherwise, it's not worth me taking time away from my vacation.)

2. My wife gets to attend with me. (I can't leave her at the hotel--think of the room service charges!)

No-one has to buy me anything or give me anything or serve me anything (I'll bring my own snacks). And you can even videotape me until the cows come home (just be kind--the camera adds ten pounds), or whatever else you need to do to protect yourselves legally. Hell, I'll even sign an NDA. I would consider it my personal little trip to Mecca.

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Posted By: My Outfield

Todd, I have a ball that was authgraphed about fourteen or more years back, collected over a period of different card shows by me.
There are only three names on it.
Joe D is on the sweet spot.
Charlie "King Kong" Keller the left fielder is on the left panel.
Tommy "Ol' Reliable" Henrich the right fielder, on the right panel.

Todd, you can bet your last centavo that the boys knew about the memorabilia gold mine.

You gotta remember these boys didn't have agents to negoiate their own contracts.
They would sit opposite the Jacob Rupert's or Dan Topping's and work out their own contracts.

The boy's were not naive.

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Posted By: PASJD

Perhaps someone from one of the auction houses or their proxies will answer this. Why can't they simply disclose, before the fact, and not in fine print, all instances where the consignor and the authenticator are the same person. I understand, based on something I believe Jay said, that there just isn't enough money in authentication to make a living, and I accept that. So if authenticators must also purchase and sell items, so be it. But why not follow a practice of full disclosure, and let the buyers decide whether or not they care that the consignor has authenticated his own items? Last time I posed this question in a thread where someone (was it Mr. Martinez?) was defending the auction houses, it never was answered. It does not appear to have been answered, or even asked as best I can tell, in connection with the recent "trip," although in fairness it arguably was beyond the scope of the trip. But WHY? What is the answer? Anyone?

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Posted By: Check One

Under what category does The SCDA trip fall under?

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Posted By: Giants00

Jay,
Thank you very much for posting on the trip. There are a lot of people who have a lot of anger. It gets a lot harder to be universally negative in the face of real people and real facts. there are issues, but i think what you are showing is that we are not dealing with crooks, but human beings. I do think that there are a lot of legitimate questions that should be asked about the auction houses, and about why they will not disclose things. that is of course for a different thread.
dan

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The explanation they gave to us was that they do a lot of business with different auction houses and they don't want to have to explain to one auction house why they consigned a certain item to that house instead of theirs. Take that for what it's worth.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

I find it amazing that in one day the good guys are bad guys and the bad guys are know the good guys. I think the courts should decide who is right or wrong. I also think that the auction houses are at fault when they sell items from the people that authenticate and own that same item. That is truly a conflict of interest. This thread is like being on the streets of New York and playing Three Card Monte. Now you see it Now you dont. My question would be how, in less than a day, can you make up your mind?

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Dan and Jay have covered pretty much everything that happened at the meeting. The responses by the handful here were expected. The big fact that swayed me towards this being a Streak bat was the fact that the bat a a wieght on the bottom of the bat and had to be specifically asked for and was added to the notes on the order, a lomited number were ordered this way (22 I believe). The time frame of the bat order and when the bat receieved by HEinrich is what conviced me that There is a very strong possiblity that it is a streak bat. I also do not believe it should not have got a A10. There is NO definitive way of authenticating memoribilia, but there is alot of strong eveidence indicating that this is a streak bat.

Troy, Dan and Dave have no preconceived notition that there is always a window that any item is not what it is said to be. This is why they have started SCDA authenicated. They hide no fact in how an item is authenicated and will give the submitted the evidence and a checklist to the grade they applied. This is exactly what everyone wants from the card grading companies and they are doing it in there business. Our flights were paid for by SCDA out of there pockets. They made no sales pitch just presented there case and we asked the questions (many of which were answered before we asked in there presentation).

What I got out of Dave Bushing from the initial sale of the bat is that they had authenticated it sold it to a customer (had bought bats preivously from him) at a show and on the way out the a comment was made to the gentleman about Dimaggio batting left handed, this prompted him to bring it back to Dave at which point he gave him his money back. As far as why didn't he do deep research right away I guess only Dave can answer that. but as to the fact he did do the research after the encounter and it turned out quite fruitful. Dave had the opportunity to turn the bat quickly for a profit but circumstance change teh whole situation. If this gentleman that bought it at the show had just left it would be just another Dimaggio bat. They did bring along 3 other original Dimagio bats, so thes guys have handled Dimaggio bats in the past and none magically became the streak bat.

I also want to reaffirm a fact Dan Berretta pointed out is that after it was deemed a streak bat, they rework the deal with the Heinrich family to there satisfaction, they were not obligated to do this. The "leap of Faith" is a part of buying memorabilia of this type and is accepted in these transactions. to what degree the "Leap of Faith" is has alot to do with the price. Unless you received the item personally there is really no way to prove in your mind that it actually is what some says it is. Having eveidence to back up the authenticity of the item is what takes an item from an A1 to A10.

Everyone can form their own opinion, I was very skepitcal going into this and came out of this with all the evidence presented that there was every reason to believe that this has a very strong possibilty of being a streak bat.

As far as those of you that used the excuse that you do not have the time to go meet with them and see them same thing we did. I work 6 days a week, I went on my one day off. It was all done in one day and they were more than willing to work around the schedules of those who wish to have gone. Instead of just writing of all this sceptictism everyone had the opportunity to go to this and SCDA is willing to meet with anyone at a show they are set up at, they do ask that you give advance notice. The "horse and pony show" was a reference to the early thread.

I give Troy, Dan Knoll, the people at Mastro auction and Dave Bushing a thank you for taking there time to give us this opportunity. We got in the way many times at Mastro but the people were very nice and approachable.


We went to Chicago to see all the facts and here from the people involved. We did that formed our own conclusions, which for turned out that we all came to the conclusion that they were justified in naming the bat a streak bat.

Lee Behrens
bowlingshoegiverouterguy

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Posted By: PASJD

So the policy of nondisclosure is set not by the auction houses but by the authenticators themselves, and the purpose is to keep the identity of their consigned items a secret from the other auction houses? Well, I guess it an explanation, although a purely self-interested one and not one I find satisfactory given the consequence to the consumer. But thanks for shedding light on it Dan.

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Posted By: Rob L

Conspiracy theories will always be around, however, it sounds like that the evidence points to a streak bat. Did Bushing mess up initially by not researching things enough? Probably. Was there financial gain for him once it was determined to be a streak bat? Yes. Can an interview with a 93 year old be sketchy? Of course. But when everything is weighed together, it does seem to point to one conclusion.

The upcoming lawsuit will be very interesting. I think voices such as Robert Planich need to be heard, but I it sounds like the guys that made this trip when it with the Planich state of mind and therefore were convinced he was right. Lets see what happens with the lawsuit.

My 1/2 cent worth.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Can anyone name an auction house that does not have there own authenticators? is this not a conflict of interest? How many of you that question these auction houses purchase from them? I do not like all there policies but the chose is boycott or buy. We are all skeptics but lives a risk, the best way to get by is to educate yourself to make the decisions you feel comfortable with.

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Posted By: Aaron

"Can anyone name an auction house that does not have there own authenticators? is this not a conflict of interest? How many of you that question these auction houses purchase from them?"

This one's easy: Like most collectors, I suspect, I had absolutely no idea that SCDA and its individual authenticators were authenticating items and then consigning those same items to auction houses.

Then this information became public last month.

Now that I know that this kind of undisclosed conflict of interest takes place, you better believe I'm going to be extremely cautious about it the next auction. I just feel bad for all the potential bidders who don't know that this kind of practice actually takes place.

Again, personally, this is such a blatant conflict of interest it wouldn't even have occurred to me to ask about it, so I suspect most collectors won't even know that the burden of discovering conflict of interest at auction houses rests on them and not the authenticators and auction houses themselves (who will continue to conceal their conflict of interest unless asked directly).

Anyway, I plan on putting my newfound knowledge to the test in Mastro's April auction. Once the auction is up, I'm going to ask Mastro for a list of all items in the auction which have been authenticated and consigned by SCDA and/or any of its individual authenticators.

If Mastro is as forthcoming as they claim they will be, then I'll post the list here on this message site and we can all review the items and get a better idea what percentage of game-used items in the auction have been consigned by SCDA and/or its authenticators (assuming Mastro is honest) and then discuss whether we agree with their findings or if we think a financial motivation might be involved.

All in all I think that could be very informative to collectors and help make better judgments when deciding to bid on items or not.

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Posted By: Rob L

Just as an aside, sniping at the Jay, Lee and Dan is a little ridiculous when Jay offered on several threads and the chat room sessions, to post any question that anyone had regarding the bat. Posting questions that they were not asked to check on is a little ridiculous at this time.

My other 1/2 worth.

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Posted By: steve

I was under the impression that the three of you were acting as our representatives or journalist of sorts and we're going to provide an accurate account of the meeting.
The first rule in proper journalism or broadcasting is when you have finished reading the article or viewed the event you wouldn't be able to tell who the reporters were rooting for. I suggest that had you followed this approach to some degree all would have been better served.
I hope this makes sense Jay and Dan. How classy that would have been to list the information, which by the way could have been weighted if desired, and then say "I have developed my opinion on the subject but that doesn't matter. Here's the information we gathered for our group to decide for themselves" we'd gladly attempt to answer any other questions. Oh well.
Now I hear a good question I'd love to hear your response and we get this, "plan your own trip if you want to know"
I wasn't under the impression there were spots available or worthy based on my tenure here to attend. Personally I am smack dab in the middle of the exact issue. Mr. Bushing and Mr. Taube are currently authenicating a pair of bats with tens of thousands of dollars hanging in the balance. I still would have been completely unbiased. I asked one valved member here and he blew me off as crazy to ask about going.
I assure everyone had I gone You would have received a professional summary that wouldn't have prompted any childish behavior and would have benefited from bonus Q&A's I have to be answered.
So in lieu of that I have some questions.
Went do we get to see Jay's video of the meeting. I'm sure others feel this would be more benefical then the current narration system.
What gifts were you given from SCD MastroNet?
Don't Henrich bat find, further study, his videotape evidence, more value, big kickback to family all tie together? Was he told prior to taping that with his documentation the bat would bring more and he'll receive half of anything over 100K. Answer that question please.
I don't know any of you but I have following this very closely and was shocked when the Recon team left with "the ain't fooling us what other questions do you have? we'll get the smut" and returned "Hey We guarantee it 100% and screw you to question us, you should of gone yourself" literaly overnight.
By the way I'd love to go. I have 50 great questions and would offer just verbatum answers

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Posted By: steve

Robert Edwards Auctions does not have in house authenicators. They require two seperate grading opinions and describe the item based on that information. The most accurate, professional run sports auctions on this planet.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

I'm an impartial party on this issue, in that I have no interest in acquiring game-used memorabilia and strongly doubt I ever will. I know Dan, Lee & Jay went in as non-believers and came out convinced that there was significant merit to the claims of Dave Bushing and SCDA. Were they hoodwinked by the bright lights? It doesn't sound like it to me, and I say that after I spoke to Jay today to get more info. I think they were shown some compelling evidence.

I absolutely agree that no one who authenticated an item should be the seller of that item. If you were trying to sabotage your integrity, you couldn't do a better job. But the fact that H&B bought this bat and plan to display it in their museum carries weight - they think it's as advertised.

I wish Robert P. luck with his case (or whatever we'd call it). It shouldn't have come to that.

Bill

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I wish to thank Jay, Lee and Dan for taking the efforts of going to Mastro. As has been noted, there were 5 spots offered here on this very board quite a while ago to take the trip and only these three chose to go.

I don't know Dan, but I know Lee and Jay. In my opinion, they are inteligent and far from being shills, and their opinions have weight with me.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

The question I now an answer to is that we received airline ticket (pd by SCDA), transportation to Mastro,a bottle of water at Mastro, they let us use there bathrooms (really nice),lunch, that included a beer, Old Mastro catalogs that wirhed a ton and Dan Knoll scraped me up a Mastro magnifying glass out of his cars and transportation back to the airport. That is the extend of anything of monetary value that they sent our way.

There actually waas a reporter on hand that will be writing an article for SCD on the whole meeting, maybe that will satisfying your need for a professional report. Ijust don't understand the response that tell us how we were suppose to handle ourselves the questions to ask when everyone single one of us had a chance to go and handle it our own way.

Steve, You seem to have alot of questions and trepidation I am curious as to why you did not volunteer to go, you said you followed the situation closely. How many bats have you sent off to SCDA and PSADNA, why chose 2 different authenticators? What is the history behind your bats that made you believe that they are real? I believe that all of us could come up with scenarios to your story that you have created the story to help authenticate and enhance the sale of your bats. This is just the nature of the beast. It is the type of evidence tied to your bats that will decided the degreee to it's authenticity.

All the questions you pose about the whole Heinrich situation are valid and were brought up, there response (please don't ask me what it was)led us all to believe that they were telling the truth. If you don't believe, then I guess you will not be buying that bat if it ever comes up for sale.

A note about SCDA, they do not give out a letter of authenticity, they give out a letter of opinion, this was changed after the board thread.

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Posted By: Aaron

"Ijust don't understand the response that tell us how we were suppose to handle ourselves the questions to ask when everyone single one of us had a chance to go and handle it our own way."

Another simple one: Because some people dismissed this as a worthless PR stunt when offered and continue to do so now.

It should be expected that some people are going to dismiss what you write about it. In fact, it actually reads as confirmation that the "demonstration" was every bit the PR stunt suspected. Frankly, the more defensive and indignant you become, the more you sound as if you are determined to espouse SCDA's POV.

Honestly, I'm really not clear what you think the value of your trip was?

Obviously they gave you a one-sided presentation of the validity of the "streak" bat (and even so, one full of holes that have already been pointed out by other posters) that simply restates their earlier position. Whatever you write about for them on this site is simply another form of conveying or distilling a press release.

So, basically until Adam starts questioning SCDA and Mastro during the Planich suit (where they will be asked detailed questions, under oath, from an adverse party) there's really nothing to talk about, and certainly no clear conclusion to reach. Nothing you or I do will be more valuable than what Adam accomplishes during the legal proceeding. That's when SCDA and Mastro won't be in control of the "demonstration."

Otherwise, again, in terms of the issue of undisclosed conflict of interest, you are merely repeating SCDA's previously stated arguments on this site (although Jay is now saying he'd prefer to buy from a dealer who authenticates his own material over one who doesn't). You've added no new information or details to that issue (and I've already tried to persuade Troy as to the problems with their policies via e-mail).

I mean, what else was there?

Your trip, IMO, was a complete waste of time and always was always going to be a complete waste of time.

At least you got to visit Mastro's offices though. That would have been worth it for me from a collector's perspective, like going to a behind the scenes tour of the HOF. I'd be willing to put up with whatever nonsense aimed at me if that were on the table (I'd liken it to getting a free ski trip if you sit in on a time share sales pitch for a couple hours). But alas, that was apparently a one-shot deal.

Now all I have to look forward to at the National is Ryan Cuban Card Guy trying to beat me up (unless I hand over both my issues of OCM).

PS: I'll trade you my Mastro tape measure for your Mastro magnifying glass.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

So Aaron what you are saying is that if you went you would not give yourself a chance to change your opinion and that you would only go would be to see the mastro facility. I am sorry to dissappoint you but the whole Mastro location was not on the schedule until we made plans to fly out there.

I have heard many good thinks about the Robert Edwards Auction and glad to hear that someone is using this format.

The 3 of us went out there with open minds and formed our own opinions and have reported it to the board. Take it as you may, but that is what went down.

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Posted By: Steve

For asking. The answer to your question regarding two authenicators can actually be answered by following your own thread. What auction co. doesn't self authenticate?
I honestly wish I'd asked to go. I felt being a member who's little planet has reason to orbit around this world once every couple years I might not have enough frequent flyer miles. As stated a well respect member was encouraged to discouraged it also. I am indifferent regarding that particular bats' history but am fancinated at the correlation between ownership and authenication ratings, the varied efforts and the information and authority bestowed on a single individual. Since you asked. I would have added answers to these questions
DiMaggio gives the bat to Henrich. How do you know this Dave Who knows could he have stolen it What did daughter sayWho did she ask Document answers
Henrich leaves bat at mother's house actually bats were all 5 together what were the other 5 Did his new wife allow bats in home why leave them there Heck he could forget about them by accident Document answers
Henrich's daughter finds bat and 5 others
She contacts Bushing, who buys the bats. Date this happened Has she told her father she is selling themIs she trying to prevent sharing monies with him or not want to bother or worried he'd say don't or If he is sharp why initially is he kept out of loop what day is she told he will be interviewed
Bushing sells DiMaggio bat insiginificant
bat gets returned.
more research done on bat. like any pulltizer prize novel the more time invested the better classic the author shall pen
Tom Henrich is contacted to find out more about bat. Search the tape for consistancies or variations what does daughter say when you ask to meet him do you tell her that it means a lot more money with his tape who cares if he was coached or cohersed did he know in advance about the money Remember John Lovet Action yeah that's the ticket yea professions are actors .
bat is determined to be a Streak bat. great I'm happy for you I do seem to have some questions. Same results, but WAY more fun and more impromptu than your mattinee and these albeit minor issues would provide great insight into industry
bat is sold at MAstro auction to H&B. to not disclose owner authenicator is solely for one purpose
I seem to have arrived of sorts. After a few polite updates regarding my items my emails don't make it to Dave's house anymore

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Posted By: jay behrens

I wish I had a tape. When the meeting got moved to the Mastro offices, they nixed my use of the video camera for security reasons. I didn't think of it until heading back home that I should have left the lense cap on and used it as just an audio recorder. This isn't so bad either since SCDA has said that this gladly make this presentaiton to anyone, at any show they set up at. So you can see it yourself at the National or other shows they are at. Just call them ahead of time to let them know you want to see it. I'm starting to think they should just pack this material with them at every show.

Let's get one thing straight about this bat and it's authenticity, Henrich's testimony IS NOT the lynchpin to this whole thing. Everything would stand on it's own without it. The bat could only come from one of 3 possible orders. Henrich got married buring the All-Star break and then left various items at his mother's house, including the bats, in August. This eliminated 2 orders from the possible candidates and cut it down to 6 bats that were shipped on July 1st. There is even more to this, but it's late and I want to get this posted. As we've said, we aren't comfortable with an A10 grade, but everything indicates that this is a Streak bat. I am comfortable with that.

Our main reason for going ont his trip was see the proof that this was a Streak bat, and this was proven within reason. We also talked about conflict of interest, etc. You can say we spewing the SCDA party on this, but in almost every field of collectibles, authenticators also sell the items they authenticate. This goes for art, furniture, toys, movie memoriablia, you name it. This is not something that Bushing and the auction houses made up to try and hide things. This is how the auction industry has operated for decades. Do you honestly think that all those experts on the Antiques Roadshow just authenticate items and don't sell things they find and authenticate?

Aaron, glad to see that you truly have clue as to what SCDA's new policy is, or most of the rest of this topic. Just lots of preconceived notions and prejudices. First off, if the authenticator is the seller, it is disclosed on the LOA. They have no control over what the auction house will put in the description, but you will be told about it if you are serious about bidding on the it, at least by MastroNet. There is no "30 day" limit to prove anything. It's a lifetime gaurentee. And if you can prove they are wrong, they will not only refund your money, they will also refund you the cost of the other expert. That's called standing behind your product/opinion on an item.

And too the person that expected a professional, jouranlistic report, too bad. None of us are professional journalists and we didn't know we were required to go on this trip and report back to the board in this fashion. If this is what you expected, you should have gone yourself, or gotten someone to go taht could have done this for you.

We went there to form an opinion, one way or the other. Not to come back and provide an unbiased report. I'm sorry if our conclusions didn't meet with your expectations. At this point, no one really has a right to whine or cry about what happened and the conclusions we came to too. You had the oppourtunity to take this trip. You also had the chance to provide with any questions you would like asked. Very few of you did, and Aaron, you didn't provide any. Why you are now making all this noise is beyond me. You had your chance and blew it. But hey, you get to sit home and say to yourself, yep, those guys were bought off, but if we had come back saying they were blowing smoke up up our arses, you still be sitting at home going yep, we were all right. It's great to sit at home, ignorant of the situation, believing only what you want to believe, and realize that you are right no matter what happens.

Jay

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

Troy R. Kinunen stated
"For the record, this offer was extended to some of the original parties involved that questioned the authentication of the Joe DiMaggio bat. My one request was that the entire session be video taped. I am going to request the same for this offer also so all facts will be accureately represented and chronicled."

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Posted By: From The Fearless NAIVE lips of

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1107478964&lp=1108414835

jay behrens
February 6 2005, 7:36 PM

"Joe, they've agreed to let me video tape the whole thing. And you can bet that if they try to spin our visit into something that it wasn't, I'll be the first one to speak up about it.

It may be a PR spin tour, but none the less, I gotten a bunch of good questions to ask them and the responses will be interesting and telling."
*
*
The above was a response to:
Joe P.
February 6 2005, 6:19 PM
The Good Folks Over At The Stabilized Place Would Like To Know If

You would be kind enough to send them your Game Plan & Play Book?

Come to my parlor!
Said the spider to the fly.

Jay, love ya man, but let's be realistic.
If you don't have the questions, the ferver and the research background of a Robert Plancich:
Why are you going?

Some have already said it, and I agree with them.
This is just an amateur PR feeble attempt to get a handful together so that they can use their prepared and rehearsed stonewall lines on you -- on their turf.

They are not going to admit conflict of interest to anyone on their turf. .... status quo.

It would make great SCD print.

"Group faced Us, and they couldn't touch Us with a glove."

Wrong Turf.

Jay amigo, you're not in that league, and it's not a sight seeing tour.

They have rehearsed their lines.

So Much for Their Agreement to Let You Video Tape the Whole Thing.
Did yo really BELIEVE that they would???

To make it worse, they used the least expensive vasoline in the market.
I hope that The Magnificent Trio smiled prettily for the SCD cameras.
The Magnificent Trio, not to be confused with "The Three Stooges".
They were creatively innovative.

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Posted By: Aaron

Jay, sorry but I'm 100% right about the return policy. Check page 5 of the current Mastro Classic Collector auction catalog. It's listed under SCD's profile in the "A Word About Authenticity" section.

You have 30 days from receipt to have the item examined by a "recognized third-party" who presents "verifiable informationnthat the item was not represented properly or accurately."

Again, I appreciate your good intentions, but the fact is you simply served a PR purpose for SCDA and Mastro.

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Posted By: Aaron

"It would make great SCD print."

This is another interesting point.

Jay, Dan or Lee: Did any of you catch the name of the outfit the reporter who accompanied you writes for?

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Joe,

What research and backgraound do YOU know that Robert Plantich has or has taken? Do you know him personally done research with him. Mr. Plantich was offered this same deal to show the eveidence when he first brought up the question to them and he turned it down. My question is why wouldn't you want the eveidence of an authenticator if you as a non-authenticator are questioning it's authenticity.

Steve,

You seem to be doing the exacthings you accuse these guys of, I asked specific questions about the bats you are sending and you send a general answer why is this? Why don't you post and scan your bats, post why you believe the bats are what you say they are and the board members tell you if they think they are legit?

Not an attack Steve but whatis your background? It don't think I have ever encountered you on the board.

Lee

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Guys, thanks for the reporting on the trip. I know you were all skeptical going in so I can appreciate your feelings now. That being said, an authenticator should not be selling his own crap without disclosing his relationship to the item. End of story--no matter how many times Troy sends me personal invective via email.

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Posted By: Aaron

"So Aaron what you are saying is that if you went you would not give yourself a chance to change your opinion and that you would only go would be to see the mastro facility. I am sorry to dissappoint you but the whole Mastro location was not on the schedule until we made plans to fly out there."

Well, I would substitute "unwilling to allow myself to be manipulated" for "not give yourself a chance to change my mind", but otherwise yeah, that's about it.

Now, had I known a tour of Mastro's facility been on the table, I might have been willing to shirk my professional responsibilities and burn a vacation day and allow myself to serve another person's agenda, but as it was originally presented, the answer was no, I was not willing to serve another person's agenda under those circumstances. (For the tour, I would have chalked it up to "If you are going to use me, I'm going to use you.")

As far as my opinion, I haven't really offered one on the validity of the streak bat. The only thing about the sale(s) that I've spoken out about are the fact that Bushing owned the bat, and if he disclosed this to the eventual purchaser. Otherwise, I am content (as I have said repeatedly) to let the matter be resolved in a neutral forum by those who are much more educated on the subject than me during the Planich litigation.

The only other thing that was really an issue was undisclosed conflict of interest, to which no new information was added during your trip. And, yes, I can say with certainty that I would not have changed my mind and approved of it, even if given a free lunch and tour of MastroNet (although I would have been very cordial during the visit!).

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I agree with that fact that they should not sell an item they sold without disclosure of the fact. It seems alot of that is up to the auction houses from my understanding. We did not agree on everything especially that the bat should receive an A10, in my eyes at least an A9.

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Posted By: Naive and Sleepless in Iola

You make me feel like an expert, and I know absolutely nothing about bats, gloves and the likes.

The Trio's decision to go, bewildered many of the
posters.
Your qualifications were nil to the task required.

You were the PERFECT pawns for the SCDA group.
They could not have hoped for a better sellection.

The outcome to this charade was as predictable as Night following Day.

Predictable and foreseen by most, except the Gentlemen from Iola.

Tell us Lee, who is this Burdick fellow, and what kind of reseach did he do?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Joe, thank you for coming down from your high and mighty place. I knew you were sitting next to Aaron, in your comfortable win-win loungers. You say I am unqualified? Do you know what my experience is with game used bats? I'll let you answer this and prove your ignorance on this one.

Aaron, you crack me up. You talk about how easily were manipulated and claiming that nothing could manipulate you. Look at yourself, you are the one that is falling all over himself just trying to get into the MAstro offices. Of the 4 of us, who do you think would be the most easily manipulated? It would be you becuase you would be the one bedazzled and stunned like a deer looking into the headlights.

Back to the conflict of interest, H&B did not find out that Bushing owned and authenticated the bat after the fact. All the bidders were made aware of this. Mastro even offered to contact the bidders so they could confirn this with us. And I can already see your answer, the bidders are jsut more lackeys doing the what Mastro wants them to. And did you miss the part where I mentioned this an industry wide practice, not relagated soley to sports memorabilia? Does this make it right and mean we have to agree with it? No, but the people that bid in these auctions on a regualr basis are well aware of it.

Enough of the boys in the win-win barcaloungers. Time to hit the ignore button on them until they say something useful.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Sweet now you say that Robert Plantich and Burdick are in the same league give me a break.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

For what it's worth, I don't think it appropriate to malign those that went on the trip as rubes that were dazzled by the bright lights of Chicago. These guys are obviously bright, learned collectors who went there with a chip on their collective shoulder. It would be simplisitic and obnoxious to suggest otherwise. As for H & B not knowing that Bushing owned the item, that may also be. I'm not sure I believe it but of course I could be wrong. One thing I know that I am correct about is that Bushing knew that he owned the item that he was authenticating. And for me, that makes Bushing an untrustworthy snake oil salesman who lied by omission.

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Posted By: Aaron

"Aaron, you crack me up. You talk about how easily were manipulated and claiming that nothing could manipulate you. Look at yourself, you are the one that is falling all over himself just trying to get into the MAstro offices. Of the 4 of us, who do you think would be the most easily manipulated? It would be you becuase you would be the one bedazzled and stunned like a deer looking into the headlights."

Again, another easy one. I'm not trying to even give the impression of SCDA's credibility if I went on a tour of the Mastro facility. I wouldn't come back here and post about how they proved the validity of the Planich bat and how conflict of interest isn't such a bad thing.

I'd just go on my tour, have fun and that's it. That's why I even volunteered to sign an NDA: Because I have no intention of spewing SCDA or Mastro's propaganda (on this site or anywhere). I would just using this whole situation as a pretense to get a free tour of a personal collecting heaven.

You guys on the other hand, are acting like trained seals, doing their PR for them, just as they hoped.

That's why I refuse to sit through their demonstration unless it's at Mastro headquarters. Otherwise, why bother to sit through their spiel? To learn something "unbiased" so I can come back here and do their work for them? Come on, ego aside, can't you see how badly you've been used?

Troy told me yesterday that Mastro and SCDA would only be at the National and a visit to MastroNet during the National was impossible, so no "demonstration" for me. Simple.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

don't malign those that went. You can discount or completely disagree with their take, but allow them to have one. If you believe you pre-ordained what would happen and/or had no intention of giving the report any credibility, regardless who issued it, then make your point to that effect once and move on.

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Posted By: Rob L

Aaron, since it seems that you have no interest in seeing the evidence to dispute what these guys are saying, why bash them? They told us they were going, we were asked to give them any questions that we had (some asked)and they came back and reported what they saw and felt.

Your take that you won't go and listen to the evidence because you can't get a tour of the Mastro facility is laughable. You are going to the National and won't take 15 minutes to hear there spiel there. I don't get it. I guess my feeble brain is about to explode.