If you could improve the hobby, what would you do

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich Klein

Only positive steps please -- here are some examples:

At the major shows, reinstate a dealer hospitality room (or suite)

Create a National Association -- similar to the ASDA or APS (American Stamp Dealer Association) or (American Philatelic Society)

Try to remember this is designed to be an hobby. Frank Barning used to tell me all the time -- that he named his paper Baseball Hobby News to empahsize the fun. For most of us, this needs to be something we relax with during our off-hours.

Regards
Rich

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I think there could be a hobby organization concerning ethics, practice and expertise that has as members reputable and honest sellers who agree to abide by certain ethical practices (requirements to be determined). This would not solve the sellers ills of the hobby, but would allow a buyer to locate reputable and respected sellers. Someone outside the hobby who is, say, buying a birthday present could find a seller on the list. The buyer may know nothing about cards and may not know the seller, but will identify him or her as a member of the organization. Other collecting areas have similar organizations which make it easier for collectors to find reputable sellers.

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

1. Rotate the National to different cities and hold it at different times in the summer.

2. Bring back large regional shows

3. Force ebay to go back to the old system of bidder identification

4. Eliminate 50%-75% of the auctioneers

5. Create a national collector's association similar to the Cartophilic Society of Great Britain

6. Update the Standard Catalog by creating new designations for all the "unc" cards out there now. After all, Burdick would have...

[Archive]

Posted By: PSpaeth

Get rid of banner ads, the source of all evil.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I would get rid of Peter Spaeth...the instigator of all evil

Seriously, I think a Seal of Good Hobby Standards would be nice.....sort of like the BBB of the hobby. There could be a committee formed of collectors, dealers and whomever else needs to be on it...and they could vote on rules and regulations....too many complaints and you don't get a seal....There are a million things that could be thought of and this is only an idea with no legs and no real thought yet....but it could be nice....maybe above a 99.5% ebay rating would be included, if said person, or company, did ebay.......just some thoughts...but good question.....maybe a good cockfight or two also.....

[Archive]

Posted By: PSpaeth

On a more serious note, I would like to see transparency by the grading services in the sense that you could look up who initially submitted a card for grading. It will never happen, but I think if it did that would help a lot of us form judgments as to whether a card was more or less likely to be legitimate particularly if there were questions based on appearance.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Concerning the sellers in the group, it would have to be fairly simple.

99.9 percent of bad sellers are either incompetent (can't tell a 1952 Topps and a 1952 Topps reprint, think a Mint card can't have 6 creases) or unethical.

Sellers in the group would have to be competent (consistently correctly identify and describe the stuff they are selling) and agree to follow ethical standards that bad sellers don't follow. It could be as simple as that.

Along with reputation and recommendations, it would be simple to review a seller's auctions to judge whether he is competent and fair at describing the items he sells.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

It will never happen, but somehow make card tampering unacceptable. IMO the idea that tampering is acceptable "sometimes" under certain circumstances, has opened pandoras box, and has "stretched" the very definition of tampering. I am a collector, not a dealer, so I'd prefer that it never happen. Now I know this won't and can't happen, but, hey, you asked the question. I find the whole idea of flattening, bleaching, trimming, cleaning, to be wrong. I won't use the term immoral, because we're only talking about baseball cards. Not the elimination of AIDS. There are thousands who can rationilize why I am wrong. But many can rationalize anything.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Following up on what Peter wrote, I would want to see the history of a card's submission - assuming you could identify each card, not the slab, with a fingerprint of sorts. Problem is, the scammers who resubmit over and over would just use a fake name for each subsequent submission.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Good idea Jeff...you could call it Cardfax.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt E.

Regarding the National

I would like to see more collectors / average baseball card fanatics set up with what they could dig out of their basement or attic. Clearly more interesting to dig thru this type of stuff than the same overpriced cards I see at every show from the same dealers.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Matt,

Nice idea, but unfortunately it's pretty expensive to set-up at the National. It's a sizable investment of time and money to set-up for the entire show.

It pretty much rules out the weekend warrior types.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

<sigh> I wish I lived in an area where I could see the same dealers stuff over and over. There isn't a real card show within 500 miles of me.

If the National is in Chicago next year (which I thought somebody mentioned) I will be making my first trek to a National.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

As many probably don't have an idea ....A table at the National, that will fit about 6-8 cases, is in the $900-$1100 range, for the whole time...and that doesn't include the cases....if you rent them they are about $55 ea...or if you buy them they are about $55 ea....but then you have to lug them back to wherever you came from.....

ps...this was not meant to hijack this thread I just thought with the last comment folks would like to have an idea of the cost.....

[Archive]

Posted By: whitehse

I would love to see the return of smaller weekend shows. I remember when there were card shows all over the place and on any given weekend you were within a 2 hour drive of 20 card shows.

I also agree that the national would be a more interesting place if the dealers were some of the guys who just dug stuff out of their attic but I know that will be cost prohibitive. But how about something like a dealer "flea market" Limited to only non regular dealers who just found stuff in their grandma's attic or wherever. This could be something that could be added on to the national or many of the regional shows such as the sun times show or sportsfest in Chicago. It would be a separate room and would encourage everyday guys to sell their finds and possible spend what the make at the big show. Yes, I know the dealers in the normal show would be upset but the dealer "flea Market" could be limited to sales under 50 bucks or less to make the regular dealers happy when these guys come over to spend their bucks they just made..

I dont know but its a thought.Its friday.. I am outta work in a half hour.. I dont know what i am saying!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony

everything that Adam said, plus a consignment table at the National and other shows. You could drop off 1 card or a stack, put your price and cell number, and pay a cut to the person staffing the table.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Parmentier

I recently bought raw, like many of you net54 folks like (as opposed to slabbed).

Dude assured my no funny business. Result, not holdered, evidence of trimming. Now its going to be pulling teeth trying to get this guy to cough up refund.

If you just buy cards slabbed and full sized to the holder edges, its slabbed, its slabbed, its slabbed, and nobody can take that away from you (unles you're stupid and bust it out).

Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt E.

Peter,

That is my point precisely it costs more than the average collector wants to pay. Why spend $900 -$1,000 to set up when you can walk around and have that much more to spend or come home at the end of the show and buy from Ebay (which is what usually happens).

Many collectors on this board and in general can certainly handle the table fees and I am sure have their own cases. But show us the $200 table room / section and I guarantee it will be packed. Heck we will even give up the hospitality suite.

Great consignment table idea

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Perhaps at the bigger shows you could have a roped off area where collectors can only trade. There would be no exchange of money.

The promoters will think of this as wasted valuable space and the dealers will be unhappy because they lose potential buyers.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, I used to buy solely raw off ebay until what happened to you happened to me. That was the last time.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt E.

The no exchange of money is ridiculous. What are you going to make change with ..1987 Topps cards?

As far as the wasted valuable space....It's called the aisles. Collectors will continue to buy, sell and trade in the aisles and common areas like they have done for years. I know I have watched many deals be rejected due to the dealer not offering any true monetary value for the cards.

At the conclusion of their conversation I have asked the seller If I could look at the stack of cards and been able to buy just a few from time to time. It goes on but not just not in a roped off area.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Matt,

It's idealistic, but not that ridiculous. For one thing if you let money be exchanged then the tax people will be looking over people's shoulder while they're trading.

The second thing, is that it will build friendships and bring more people into the hobby which would lead to more attendance at future card shows.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Can't imagine that there are too many undercover IRS agents at the National. Plus the exchange of cards for cards, assuming they have value, is a potentially taxable event.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave Haas

I'd like to see grading companies certified/approved by a baseball card collectors association and a standard set of grading rules that all grading companies must abide by or they lose their certification. This would eliminate all the 3rd and 4th tier graders that will grade anything, trimmed , altered, recolored etc. Good luck on this!

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich Klein

And they tried to set up a "collector to collector" only section. That idea, great in concept, turned out to be a big bust.

However, the consignment idea at a big show such as the National is great in theory. Many details need to be worked out for that; but I would only have that table open to certain types of items -- i.e. Graded Cards, because of whom would have to take what responsibility if something went wrong.

The National Association is something that is overdue and very needed. It could help with many diverse issues from Jim C's graded card issues to helping to grow tomorrow's collectors.

Figuring out a way to increase face to face dealings would help both the youth of the hobby and the veterans

Regards
Rich

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

A consignment table would be a nice addition to the shows. I'd say that any of the auctioneers who presently just set up showcases of their auction wares could easily devote space to this--and they already have the consignment contracts, etc., ready to go.

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Sophisticated markets including precious metals, diamonds, stocks, funds, etc. know their performance history and the performance histories of their subdivisions (for example: platinum, gold, silver).

I would clearly document the appreciation of our hobby and its subdivisions so that others can consider baseball cards as an option, based on an awareness of the facts.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ed

More stare decisis. Precedent too scant.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Gil,

I suggested having historical prices for key vintage cards to Bobby Binder, I hope he follows up. If you have been in the hobby for a while, you get a feel for prices. You know the prices of certain stars follow the prices of the superstars in the same set. You know that a certain series within a set is rarer than another series.

Well for a newbie historical prices gives them an idea of whether these relationships change over time.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Evans

I likewise am disappointed with the decreased size and quality of regional shows. I regularly attend the Chantilly show which used to be much larger and include Levi Bleam as well as other major dealers. It's no secret that the internet, especially eBay, has taken its toll on such shows, which now appear to survive largely due to autograph guests. In the absence of a novel marketing strategy, I'm inclined to think that the days of the large, vibrant regional shows are behind us.

If the idea of a collectors' association is to materialize, I don't think it will happen spontaneously. Instead, I think it will require someone with entrepreneurial spirit, and leadership and organizational skills, to reach out to collectors, especially those with a significant financial stake, and offer a detailed proposal to redress the ills of the hobby as detailed in other threads. While I'm not that guy, I would be pleased to offer part-time assistance (so as not to cut too deeply into golf and my other retirement activities). And, I work cheap, at least until I figure out what I'm doing.

Looking forward to dinner. Mark

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Lamb

I would be happy If dealers would clearly price their merchandise. Instead at these shows they look you up and down and give you a price based on your appearance and perceived ability to pay.That is why I purposely dress down at these big shows and leave the "bling" at home....Bob

[Archive]

Posted By: Solomon

1) I always thought it illogical that setup at a National was based strictly on seniority. Those tables up front are worth 3-5x what the ones in the back should trade at. If you sold the tables at the front for $2500, those in the middle for $750-1000, you could have a section in the back for your part timers at $250/table. The front area will be carpeted, with tables & chairs provided, etc. - the back area will have a beat up picnic table and your name on it. Let your big dealers pay for the publicity they want, and you'll have a better variety of material, with space for the local flavor of someone with $5-10k in inventory and staying at a buddy's house in the stix. Real estate is valued based on location, location, location - no reason show space should be any different.

2) Find a way to get more involvement from the leagues and players associations. Think of how much more interest...my God there might even be a "cool factor"...if the players were involved more, instead of just taking, taking, taking.

3) Outlaw grading of new cards. Half of the stuff is bad, the other half is overhyped crap. And yes, I know what paid my bills from 1999-2003. Knew it then, know it now. What a joke.

I'm sure there's more, I'm just tired.

[Archive]

Posted By: PSpaeth

What are you doing these days, haven't heard from you in years.

Could you elaborate on "half the stuff is bad"? Are you saying people are trimming 90s cards?

[Archive]

Posted By: sean

make every card worthless so collectors can jump on what they want Id lose a lot of money but it sure would be fun having a chance to get some great cards

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Sean,

You are not related to Joe Pelaez are you?

At any rate getting away from the price of a card was the key reason for having an area where trades are made without the addition of cash by eithr party. It's a situation where you go beyond the price guide and each party thinks about whether it is a fair and reasonable deal instead of whether the deal makes financial sense.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Solomon

Mostly involved with running my rental car & parking business, lot more interesting and involved, a "real" job.

At times, I felt when I left the hobby that the % of bad new cards were as high or higher on some issues than older ones. The biggest problems I see is that, with many issues (especially post-90), it is almost impossible to tell the difference in cuts on the edges, because most modern cards are guillotine cut. So, if you have a properly sized card, it's good. It's much easier to tell a bad cut on a '57 Topps card than an '89 UD Griffey.

The more I've thought about it, I think most problems with grading companies stem from incompetance vs. illicit behavior. I just don't think they can spend enough time examing cards for $5-10/card, and make a profit.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

That's why I believe that there's a market for a high end grading company. They could charge more for a more exhaustive service. I'm sure that if you had a Boston Garter Mathewson, you would be willing to pay more for a card holder that actually fit and a proper grade attached to the card. Also important to have a written guaranty.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Solomon

The irony is, I remember when GAI first opened their doors...that was what they were preaching. "We're not looking to grade a million cards - we want to grade premium items, and we'll be the premium service."

Unfortunately, the problem becomes economics. There just aren't enough of those cards to grade. Look back to grading 10+ years ago, when you had PSA as the dominant force and SGC just starting. People graded cards that needed to be graded - i.e. high grade vintage, and some very rare items for authenticity more than anything (any Ruth, etc.) Nothing was effectively graded post-70, and little was graded (or carried a premium worth grading) pre-70 that was less than NM/MT, or NM for most vintage. Grading companies, and dealers, did a wonderful job expanding the desirability for grading to:

1) Modern cards in 9 (70s and 80s) and 10 (80s and 90s)
2) Vintage 50s to 70s commons (8s to 9s)
3) Prewar - anything 7 and higher
4) Any valuable card almost regardless of condition - i.e. any regular issue Mantle, etc.

If you eliminate these above four categories, NONE of which justify a payment over $5-10/card - how much of the market would disappear? 90%? 95%? If PSA grades 100,000 cards/month now (I have no clue what the real number is) - do they get 10,000 cards/month of high grade star vintage?

Look at a Mastro auction. How many total cards in the entire auctions truly should be graded by a higher standard? Now ask...how many are ones that he freshly submitted? And if Mastro doesn't have the stuff, it's not coming from weekend warriors.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

1)Force the large grading companies to improve their standards.
2)For those caught restoring or trimming cards mandatory jail time.
3)Force the auction houses to disclose whether they have altered a card before it is up for auction.
4)If dealers knowingly sell altered cards, they are banned from the hobby.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I love your optimism - but I'm afraid Congress will never insert a section of the federal fraud statutes which permit a mandatory minimum sentence for card alterers when you consider that someone who defrauds a bank of, say, $100,000,000 would not have such a sentence (he may go away for longer but there is no mandatory minimum).

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Get rid of 3rd party grading or hire graders that know the proper designation of cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

You are asking for far too much.....


edited grammar

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Nieves

Mr. Crandall,

Would you care to comment on this?

Tom

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Forget about new legislators, can you imagine congressmen and woman, legislating about mandatory prison terms for people defrauding hobbyists. Come on they don't even have time to get us out of Iraq.

What would be really nice is to have a collector's association that is approved by MLB and Bud Selig.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Forget about new legislation, can you imagine congressmen and women, legislating about mandatory prison terms for people defrauding hobbyists. Come on they don't even have time to get us out of Iraq.

What would be really nice is to have a collector's association that is approved by MLB and Bud Selig.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

U R correct Leon, I am always asking for too much. Oh well, never hurts to ask!

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

First I have never left feedback for anyone --I do not know how to do itr.

Secondly I have made no secret that I have bought a lot of ungraded cards from Gary Moser in the 1990s--I submitted several hundred he sold me--they all came back legit.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

It would be nice if there was an online website that kept track of legit dealers and known counterfeits that have never been destroyed and the present owners of the cards. It would be a fantastic resource and a way of keeping track of known scammers. Possibly you could also have a list of known scammers.

Peter