Why I Hate the Whole Card Grading Thing...

[JollyElm]

(It's not my card and I obscured the serial number for the heck of it.)

I can't stand people who constantly talk about graded cards and all the ridiculous chatter about, "Hey, do you think if I break this card out and get it re-graded it'll get a .5 bump??" It bugs me to no end. Hate it!!!! You may have a different opinion, so whatever. But that's where I stand.

So I ran across this card today and am at a complete loss as to why in heck anyone in their right mind would say this is an 8????!!!! Isn't an 8 supposed to be a beautiful, nearly perfect card?? Since the number grade is on a separate line, this is a relatively recent grading, so you can't say that perhaps PSA overgraded it back in the day when they didn't really have their act together.

$_57.jpg

The photograph itself is at such a ridiculously tilted angle that it almost pinwheels right off the face of the card. That jumps out at you right away and it's impossible to ignore this stupidly obvious flaw. Add in the fact that each corner shows bumped/rounded wear and the edges look, for lack of a better term, pockmarked. How is this an 8?????????????????????????????????????

Yowza!!!!

[1963Topps Set]

I hate the graded system as well. I don't need anyone to tell me what my eyes are seeing. The grading system came out when the industry was dying it's first death back in the 1990s. Collectors are wetting their pants to get a 2.00 low number common for thousands because it is high grade. I only collect raw cards. If I have to get a graded card, I will take it out the holder to put the card in my collection.

[bnorth]

The part about grading that I don't get is why. To buy a raw card that isn't altered/counterfeit I have to know several things to look for. Now if I wanted that same card graded I need to know everything I do to safely buy a raw card. Then on top of that now I have to learn how to look for cracked/resealed slabs, fake slabs, and learn what companies aren't a complete joke(I know they all are).

In my opinion it is much safer to buy raw than graded anyday.

[Vintagevault13]

But if we didn't have graded cards, when would we use the word "poppage"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[brewing]

Grading has its pros and cons.
Majority of the time a graded card provides a valid condition level when buying and selling on eBay. Graded cards also provide a level of protection.

[Mesquite]

It's strange that someone hasn't come out with a computerized digital pattern/texture recognition based system that would give the same grade to the same card every time, and charge a flat rate for grading regardless of value. Technology certainly exists to do that, but maybe the development costs are more than the business model could recover. The number of cards such a system could grade per day would be way beyond human graders so it might make it up in volume, especially if everyone abandoned human graders.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Could be that this card is an "8" when compared to other copies of this card? With the 72 set being one of my favorites and with having gone through 10s of 1000s of 72s to build multiple sets, I know that this 518 card is tough to find centered. Despite the tilt cut, this example is remarkably centered when compared to other copies of this card.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Could be that this card is an "8" when compared to other copies of this card? With the 72 set being one of my favorites and with having gone through 10s of 1000s of 72s to build multiple sets, I know that this 518 card is tough to find centered. Despite the tilt cut, this example is remarkably centered when compared to other copies of this card.

I don't believe it really matters that this card is difficult to find centered. The grade of an 8 is what it is. I would think that most of us hold an " 8 " to a higher standard than what is described below though, I know I do.

NM-MT 8: Near Mint-Mint
A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high-end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance, but upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Could be that this card is an "8" when compared to other copies of this card? With the 72 set being one of my favorites and with having gone through 10s of 1000s of 72s to build multiple sets, I know that this 518 card is tough to find centered. Despite the tilt cut, this example is remarkably centered when compared to other copies of this card.

good point...also funny that graded cards really saved the hobby....yes all these 70s sets are in the hundreds ungraded and the thousands when graded mint ..that's thousands that are needed to set up shows, to set up advertising etc...the hobby cant live off 200 bucks for a 1974 set for example....costs to keep the lights on etc are the same no matter what you are selling and the more prices go high the more profit margin there is ...

I cant imagine the amount of ebay returns if all there were was ungraded cards....arguments of not seeing the scan clearly and what 'near mint' is....

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The part about grading that I don't get is why. To buy a raw card that isn't altered/counterfeit I have to know several things to look for. Now if I wanted that same card graded I need to know everything I do to safely buy a raw card. Then on top of that now I have to learn how to look for cracked/resealed slabs, fake slabs, and learn what companies aren't a complete joke(I know they all are).

In my opinion it is much safer to buy raw than graded anyday.

For the average collector those things you look for to tell if a card is altered or counterfeit are sometimes hard to notice in person, and very difficult online.

While grading is subjective and we've all seen examples of when even PSA or SGC didn't get it right I believe they do a pretty good job for the most part. Almost all of the vintage cards in my collection are graded, and I feel safer buying a graded card than a raw one if I'm spending more than a couple hundred dollars online.

[Mark70Z]

First, that card doesn't look like an "8" to me... I guess why it's said "buy the card not the holder".

I'm not doing the registry thing, but it seems like a lot of people are into it. I think it could be fun, but I wouldn't personally care about who has the best conditioned cards in a particular arena.

I've never sent in a card to be graded by any of the grading companies, but when I purchase online I do try to pick up graded cards. I've had way too many instances when buying online that the raw card was nowhere near what I expected. To date, I haven't had a bad experience with a graded card; hopefully that will continue. If I'm going to a show I like to buy the raw stuff...

[Laxcat]

Color Blind?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

Color Blind?

looks like a black and white dress..i mean blue and gray..

[SmokyBurgess]

Originally Posted by Mesquite

It's strange that someone hasn't come out with a computerized digital pattern/texture recognition based system that would give the same grade to the same card every time, and charge a flat rate for grading regardless of value. Technology certainly exists to do that, but maybe the development costs are more than the business model could recover. The number of cards such a system could grade per day would be way beyond human graders so it might make it up in volume, especially if everyone abandoned human graders.

Will the day come when they use an electron microscope to examine corners?

[Mountaineer1999]

I just dont get why anyone would have a '72 Wayne Garrett graded in the first place.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

I don't believe it really matters that this card is difficult to find centered. The grade of an 8 is what it is. I would think that most of us hold an " 8 " to a higher standard than what is described below though, I know I do.

NM-MT 8: Near Mint-Mint
A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high-end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance, but upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

Having built the 72 set graded(as well as several other sets) there is obviously quite a bit of subjectivity within the grading, as in this case to award this card an "8" with the tilt cut. While not the norm in my experience, this card still appears to meet the qualifications for an 8 centering wise, as PSA's requirements do not mention tilt cutting as an imperfection that counts against this grade level.

http://www.psacard.com/psasetregistr...et.aspx?s=3092

While the scan makes it tough for me to tell the condition of the corners, a grader applied their "subjective" opinion to the card in regards to the corners and awarded the card an "8".

This card has always been a low pop card (currently only 54 8s and 15 higher) likely due to how tough this card is to find centered. Seems like the fact that this specific example is much more reasonably centered than most copies of this card helped it subjectively grade an 8. In other words, because this card is a challenge to find well centered, did someone allow more room on this 8 than other 8's and have their opinion swayed because of the low pop? Likely so, IMO.

In the past with the graded sets that I built (and still have them), my enjoyment of the sets came from the challenge of building them cost effectively, as this set 72 Topps fully graded maybe offered once or twice a year. Whenever buying a graded card though, I still bought the card and not the grade. When building my 72 set I still would have considered this card, but at a much lower price than a more nicely centered example.


As a collector I much prefer building ungraded sets(as long as they are a challenge to complete). As I move back and work on older sets, hardly any of my cards are graded for this reason.


Why would someone grade a 72 518 card? Because if a collector would like to complete the challenge of building a 72 graded set, this is a tough card to find as many are located in other collector's sets already.

[KCRfan1]

Thanks for the insight on the '72 set. Presently, I am slowly working on a '69 and '73 set, so when it comes time to hit the '72 set this will be a card that I will have stashed in the back of my mind. I always learn something new on this site!

[begsu1013]

I understand your frustrations. I have the same from the opposite side of the fence...I cant stand when raw dealers expect psa pricing on a raw card and use wording such as "possible psa 9".

"you want $10K for that card because you think it would grade a psa 9? sure thing. i'm gonna pass on the card, but would love to grab some of what you're smoking"

[ALR-bishop]

I collect 99 .5 % ungraded cards. But I am strictly a buyer and I collect strictly as a hobby. Some folks are in cards strictly as an investment. Some are in it as a hobby and an investment. If I were in one of the last two categories, the realities of the current market would lead me to be much more into graded cards. If a person in all three categories with similar collections gets hit by a bus tomorrow and their executors have to liquidate their stuff, the graded guy comes out best in my view. But I collect sets and prefer them ungraded for easy viewing and access in binders. To each their own.

[LeftHandedDane]

I, too, buy almost exclusively raw cards. I don't have the space to store the oversized holders, and I find that the label takes away from the beauty of the card.

I pay no attention to the "grade" that the seller gives to a raw card - I judge it myself and bid accordingly.

I also wonder why people get cards graded that are not worth as much as it costs to grade them.

The only value I see to grading is protection against counterfeiting, alterations, and the like. However, I have bought some cards that have been trimmed, and as long as it was done well that doesn't really bother me. If a card is worth more than, say, $300 or so, I am more likely to seek a graded version - or at least be very careful when buying a raw card at an apparent "steal".

[turtleguy64]

my feeling after spending thousands of $ on PSA grading is that if you get a grader on his "bad day" or he is about to "finish a shift", then it is up in the air what grades you will receive. It SHOULDN'T be that way.There is a lack of uniformity in the grades entered by PSA.Many times I've broken out cards of which I simply could not accept the grade given.Then re-submitted and got the "right" grade.No one should have to do this.There is the rub .Lastly,I can tell when I've gotten a rookie grading my cards,much more liberal grades. The human element is affecting the outcome.

[gnpaden]

Personally, I prefer raw cards over graded cards any day. I feel that the slab/present day printing takes away from the prestige and Americana feel of the card. However, with that being said, I mainly buy graded when online due to all the scams, fakes, etc. When buying at shows or my LCS, I prefer raw cards. My 1955 set is all raw, 1956 set is raw/SGC with 1958 being 70/30 raw/graded allocation.

I agree that grading saved the hobby, but grading is sort of a preferential market. For example, I know some guys who submit weekly and because of the amounts of $$ spent they always get high grades on their submissions. The subjectivity kills me

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by gnpaden

Personally, I prefer raw cards over graded cards any day. I feel that the slab/present day printing takes away from the prestige and Americana feel of the card. However, with that being said, I mainly buy graded when online due to all the scams, fakes, etc. When buying at shows or my LCS, I prefer raw cards. My 1955 set is all raw, 1956 set is raw/SGC with 1958 being 70/30 raw/graded allocation.

I agree that grading saved the hobby, but grading is sort of a preferential market. For example, I know some guys who submit weekly and because of the amounts of $$ spent they always get high grades on their submissions. The subjectivity kills me

yeah paying for an expert opinion will always have issues..at least we are only talking about grades and cards.... people go to trial for a crime and the State pays an 'expert' to go against the defendant...but if the defendant hired that same expert earlier..maybe the opinion changes.....

grading did save the hobby.....try selling a ungraded set versus a graded set that are Mint....

[Brianruns10]

Card grading has been a boon for me. I wouldn't be able to collect, otherwise, because of the lack of good, quality vintage dealers in my area. And I simply do not trust buying raw cards online...too much of an issue over alterations.

At least with card grading there is a standard in play, and I know with the better confidence that what I'm getting is legit.

But with that said, I always buy the card, never the grade. If offered for the same price, I'd readily buy a centered PSA 6 over an off center PSA 8. And while I try to buy PSA 6-7s, I have no problems buyings 5s or even 4s if the card has terrific eye appeal for me.

Card grading is a tool to aid the hobbyist and the collect and the investor, but it is not the only one, and certainly not one which all should rely upon. Because a blind faith is a great why to wind up with a phony '52 Mantle in a cracked holder....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Brianruns10

Card grading has been a boon for me. I wouldn't be able to collect, otherwise, because of the lack of good, quality vintage dealers in my area. And I simply do not trust buying raw cards online...too much of an issue over alterations.

At least with card grading there is a standard in play, and I know with the better confidence that what I'm getting is legit.

But with that said, I always buy the card, never the grade. If offered for the same price, I'd readily buy a centered PSA 6 over an off center PSA 8. And while I try to buy PSA 6-7s, I have no problems buyings 5s or even 4s if the card has terrific eye appeal for me.

Card grading is a tool to aid the hobbyist and the collect and the investor, but it is not the only one, and certainly not one which all should rely upon. Because a blind faith is a great why to wind up with a phony '52 Mantle in a cracked holder....

would be easy to start a thread 'why I hate raw cards' and show a listing on ebay with the card description and pictures and then when receive the card show what you actually got picture wise.......the comparisons would show huge differences .

[grainsley]

Personally, I have no use for grading.........for the most part. I do see some value to it, in the case of wanting to hedge your bet that the card is genuine, and not a reprint/forgery/counterfeit. Perfect example is the Rose RC...I just felt better knowing it was in a slab. (PSA) Obviously not a guarantee, but I feel it tilts the odds in your favor.

[rgpete]

I must have missed something

Experts have a prolonged or intense experience through practice and education in a particular field. In specific fields.

Do grading companies have their own schools like Fast Food Companies and Circus Clowns

Also the Grading Companies have no Liability on the cards that they grade wrong or by inconsistencies by a half or whole number which can also cost MONEY for people who paid for the grading service

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by rgpete

I must have missed something

Experts have a prolonged or intense experience through practice and education in a particular field. In specific fields.

Do grading companies have their own schools like Fast Food Companies and Circus Clowns

LOL Some days I would say exactly like circus clowns.

[MattyC]

Brilliant about the circus clown school! It is often true.

As some have said: TPGs are very useful for basically telling you a card is likely unaltered and legit when buying online, which thus makes buying online much safer. That's great for the hobby. And there's the slab's protection. But for me that's all they are for. My own personal grading standards are way different from theirs, in terms of how I weigh back damage, wrinkles that need magnification or intense light to see, centering, tilt, etc.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by rgpete

I must have missed something

Experts have a prolonged or intense experience through practice and education in a particular field. In specific fields.

Do grading companies have their own schools like Fast Food Companies and Circus Clowns

Also the Grading Companies have no Liability on the cards that they grade wrong or by inconsistencies by a half or whole number which can also cost MONEY for people who paid for the grading service

Yes you missed something.. Experts get things wrong in criminal cases and people go to jail......and you worried about MONEY for a half point.....don't need schools to be an expert in the field......I would think the lead grader from PSA would qualify as an expert in a court of law if there was a dispute on a raw expensive card about what is 'mint' and 'poor' etc.......or I guess they can be an expert on circus clowns..you guys are so witty!..

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by rgpete

Also the Grading Companies have no Liability on the cards that they grade wrong or by inconsistencies by a half or whole number which can also cost MONEY for people who paid for the grading service

actually there is liability on psa's part and there have been many of instances where a circus clown has gotten the grade wrong and psa has either bought the card back from the winning bidder or was the winning bidder themselves to get the card off the market.

[MattyC]

Where do we start with this one?

Special

I mean, with registration this poor, shouldn't the card get a "1"? It does in my personal grading book.

Not to even mention the centering.

Or the back, LOL.

This is why-- no matter what their little sticker says-- I use my own eyes and personal judgement to evaluate a card. If some guy in a cubicle thinks that card is "better" than some amazing 4s I've seen, then I simply reject their system. For basic authentication, to know a card is legit and (likely) unaltered, and thereby to buy easier online, the slabbers are great. But the numbers on their stickers are utterly irrelevant to me.

This is just me, and an opinion admittedly worth nothing, but there are "3's" I'll pay "5 money" for without hesitation, and then there's the "5" above for which I wouldn't pay a dollar.

[rgpete]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Yes you missed something.. Experts get things wrong in criminal cases and people go to jail......and you worried about MONEY for a half point.....don't need schools to be an expert in the field......I would think the lead grader from PSA would qualify as an expert in a court of law if there was a dispute on a raw expensive card about what is 'mint' and 'poor' etc.......or I guess they can be an expert on circus clowns..you guys are so witty!..

I disagree some schooling whether it be trade schools, certified courses or college is needed. Plus meeting the Competency Level by what ever means by exams or hands on testing. I guess not going through K-12 you can still be considered an expert. There is no news there for the difference between Mint and Poor if you cant get that right hang it up

[ALR-bishop]

I think the hairdresser girlfriend in My Cousin Vinnie qualified as an expert

[begsu1013]

"she's kinda cute too, isn't she?"

"well yes, very!?!?"

[rgpete]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I think the hairdresser girlfriend in My Cousin Vinnie qualified as an expert

Yes she is, and more likely can grade cards a lot better. Even hair dressers take state exams

[rgpete]

Someone should start a grading company PMS it just depends on the time of month for what type of grade you get on the card, at least they have excuses

[skelly]

I can't speak for PSA, as I only deal with and buy SGC Graded Cards ( will buy PSA if need be and then cross over with SGC ). I will say this. Is grading perfect- no, I've been upset / surprised a couple of times, but overall I like it. For starters, it certainly makes online buying easier, which has really helped the hobby. The cases help protect and allow you to catalog the cards. Another good aspect from a collectors point of view is that I can buy a card that's graded a 5 or a six and it looks great. Before grading, I'm paying full book value for a card like that, now it goes for a "discounted" price. Finally it's fun to submit a handful of cards and speculate what grade they might get. So overall I accept that shortcomings and am grateful for the grading we have in place.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

"she's kinda cute too, isn't she?"

"well yes, very!?!?"

I would let Marisa Tomei work on my '64 Skylark any day.

[stlcardsfan]

Great Seinfeld episode with Marisa. Classic when she punches George.

[pawpawdiv9]

One hottie for sure, i enjoyed Wild Hogs