SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

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Posted By: Lee

Ted,

I'm not sure, but I think it is a Piedmont 350....I currently don't have the card in my possession, but I will check it soon to see. Leave me off the list until then I guess.

Best,
Lee

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have a question for you. and I can't find your email.......

Can you please Email me at......

tedzan11@comcast.net

Thanks,
TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Four new inputs from "readers" of Net54.....How about some more inputs from "posting" members ?
I know there's more of these Joe Doyle cards out there.

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........6.........12

Sweet Cap 350......0.........12

Polar Bear.............2..........8

Tolstoi..................0.........1

Old Mill..................0.........1

Sovereign 350........0..........1

EPDG

Well, the Joe Doyle cards with this mysterious "printer's mark" are being outnumbered by the No-Mark
Doyle's by a factor of 4.4 to 1. With more of the Doyle's reported, I expect this ratio to get higher.

The initial 6 Joe Doyle's reported with this MARK were due to I, and others, who had discreetly acquired
them. With 43 cards reported, we are starting to approach a true random sample and eventually we will
have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's
mark".

So, keep those inputs rolling in....we haven't gotten to 1st base yet, we are 80 ft. down the line.

Incidently, does anyone have a Joe Doyle with an EPDG back ?
I listed it on this survey only because the POP report says it exists.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Since yesterday, I've received, via emails, 5 more inputs to this survey. Four "no-mark" cards and one
card with the "printer's mark".

That brings the total to 48 responses....far short of what was expected from the vast number of T206
collectors on Net54. In fact, a good number of responses were from "readers" who don't normally post.

Actually, that raises an interesting question.....how many members on Net54 have really sizeable T206
collections ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
This card sold on EBAY lat month,and I think it's your first dot with a SW CAP back. Have a nice weekend Brian

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Posted By: Dave

Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 25... no mark.

Chalk another one up.

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Posted By: Betty

Polar Bear Back No extra Dot

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Posted By: Ron

My Doyle has no dot and is pied 350 factory 25
Regards,
Ron

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks.....BETTY, BRIAN W, DAVE, RON and "readers" for your inputs.

UPDATED....6/9/07

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........7.........15

Sweet Cap 350......1.........14

Polar Bear.............2.........10

Tolstoi..................0.........1

Old Mill..................0.........1

Sovereign 350........0..........1

EPDG....................0..........0
____________________________

Totals.................10.........42



With 52 cards reported, we are short of a reasonable random sample....I would like to see an
additional 50 more inputs of this card. Then I'll be more confident that we have a better idea
of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".

So, keep those inputs rolling in....we have just slid into 2nd base. So, we still have a long way
to go to score a run.


Anyone out there......
Do you have, or have seen, a Joe Doyle with an EPDG back ? ?

I listed the EPDG back on this survey; only, because the POP report says it exists.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

"Slow Joe" started pitching for the Highlanders in 1906. He wasn't a big guy as far as pitcher's go.
He had a relatively, short career. His Major Lge. career ended in 1910 in which he only pitched 8
games. These were split between NY (American) and Cincinnati....his career W-L record is 22-21;
however, he had a very respectable 2.85 ERA and completed 60% of his games.

His Highlander teamates gave him the nickname of "Slow Joe" because he was very deliberate in his
pitching style and he insisted that he should be allowed 8-game intervals between starts.


Life is quite interesting....how many of us would remember Joe Doyle....if it wasn't for an otherwise,
unknown simple mistake by the T206 designers that was discovered 75 years later. Now, Joe Doyle
is portrayed on one of the most sought after BB cards in the hobby.

TRIVIA quiz for tonite.....Can anyone name another BB card set that Joe Doyle is portrayed in ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Zinn

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Excellent....thanks for showing your 1906 Highlanders card.

This card would certainly qualify as Joe Doyle's 1st card.

Now, does anyone else have any other type of card portraying Joe Doyle ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Two more Joe Doyle cards without the printer's mark.

A Piedmont 350 and a Sweet Caporal 350.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

UPDATED....6/13/07.....upon receiving 4 more inputs.

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........7.........17

Sweet Cap 350......1.........16

Polar Bear.............2.........10

Tolstoi..................0.........1

Old Mill..................0.........1

Sovereign 350........0..........1

EPDG....................0..........0
____________________________

Totals.................10.........46



With 56 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample....I would like to see
approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then I will be more confident that we have a better idea of the
relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".

So, keep those inputs rolling in....we have just rounded 2nd base on our way to 3rd. So, we still
have a way to go to score a run.

TED Z

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Posted By: Joe P

TRIVIA quiz for tonite.....Can anyone name another BB card set that Joe Doyle is portrayed in ?

TED Z
-------------------------

*
*

Rose set ........ also an error.

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Posted By: Zinn

Joe P. is indeed correct. It also uses the same picture as the 1906 Sporting Life postcard.

BZ

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Posted By: Lee

Ted,

My doyle is a sweet caporal 350 with the mark...finally got it in y hands today to look at it!

Lee

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Do we have a scan of this Joe Doyle card ?

I've never seen it, and I thought I had checked-out all Slow Joe's cards (as few as there are).

Thanks,

TED Z

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Posted By: Zinn

Ted:

A board member does own the card and has posted it before. If he/she does not by this evening I'll post a scan.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Ted, when you brought the Slow Joe Doyle trivia question up, I thought you knew about it?

Then I remembered, you're a Bowmens man, and a damn good one too.

Best regards.
Joe

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Joe....I'm the first one to admit I don't know everything.....that's why I asked the Trivia "Q".....
I wanted to know how many different Joe Doyle cards are out there.....I haven't seen too many.

Yeh, they tell me I'm the "Bowman-Man"......but, all these years I've been collectingeverything else
under the sun, also.

But, look out Joe.....to quote Satchel Paige...."Don't look behind you, you don't know who might be
gaining on you".

TED Z

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Posted By: Zinn

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Thanks for the scan.
Joe P.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"Joe....I'm the first one to admit I don't know everything.....that's why I asked the Trivia "Q".....
I wanted to know how many different Joe Doyle cards are out there.....I haven't seen too many."

*
*

Nice try Ted, but this is how you stated it.

"TRIVIA quiz for tonite.....Can anyone name another BB card set that Joe Doyle is portrayed in ?"

TED Z
--------------------

A TRIVIA QUIZ is one thing, a question is another.
Are you trying to deny what you wrote?

Ted, your ego is getting in your way, and you're setting yourself up to be corrected.
If you quit the BS, you wouldn't be corrected.

Ted, it's hard to follow the Bowman act, you had that one on a higher level, and I applaud you.

Joe P.

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Posted By: leon

After speaking with you on the phone the other day I truly do not think you intentionally try to piss anyone off....but you do sometimes. So do I but that's another story for another thread.... I doubt Ted is trying to say he didn't say anything he said (hey, was that double speak?) but was merely asking a question. I know Ted can speak up for himself but just thought I would interject this as I do believe you are not a bad guy....I also know you don't mince words and we can all handle that....but sometimes when things are written on the board they are out there and can be taken worse than they were really meant. I know you meant no harm, did you? take care all....

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

UPDATED....6/15/07.....upon receiving 5 more inputs.

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........7.........19

Sweet Cap 350......2.........18

Polar Bear.............2.........10

Tolstoi..................0..........1

Old Mill..................0..........1

Sovereign 350........0...........2

EPDG....................0...........0
____________________________

Totals.................11..........51



With 61 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see
approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea
of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".

The No-Mark to Mark ratio = 4.63 to 1

So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are half way between 2nd and 3rd base....so, we still
have a way to go to score a run.

Thanks for looking thru your T206 cards,

TED Z

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Hi Ted:

No mark on my Doyle, Sweet Cap 350 back.

-Al

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Posted By: Dylan

Wow Joe... thats exactly what I (assume others?) get tired of on the board, people that want to focus on semantics and pick fights instead of focusing on the friggin baseball cards

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

AL C

Thanks for you input....when I get some more responses I'll tally them up.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Beautiful card of Slow Joe.....or is it ?

Zinn......are we sure this picture is not that of Larry Doyle ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

On 2nd thought......the ROSE Co. postcards of 1908-09 in the Standard Catalog list your
card as Larry Doyle.

And, the Rose picture of Doyle looks a lot like your 1906 Highlanders pix of Joe Doyle.

Anyhow....here is my E95 card of Larry Doyle and it too bears a close resemblance to the
pix on the Rose card.

So, do we have a mix-up of faces here, or what ? This Doyle mystery is becoming even more
intriguing every day. They were confused 99 years ago; and, we are still confused today.

Wait a minute.....perhaps, Joe and Larry were identical TWINS.....ha !

TED Z

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Posted By: Zinn

If you start with the premise that the 1906 Sporting Life PC, New York American League, pictures Joe Doyle then the Rose PC likewise pictures Joe Doyle irrespective of the fact that it is listed New York National League.

Since Joe was a pitcher and is so designated on the Sporting Life PC the picture HAS to be Joe. Larry was not a pitcher.

The fact that it appears that it is Joe Doyle on the Rose PC was first brought to our attention by Joe P. He is of the opinion, as am I, that the Rose PC is another "error" card in that it pictures the incorrect Doyle.

I don't think the E95 Doyle resembles Joe. JMO

Zinn

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Well, there is one starting point we are sure of.....and that is the 1906 p/c indeed depicts Joe Doyle.....as,
Larry Doyle didn't start playing in the Majors till 1907.
Given that premise, I fully agree with you that the Rose p/c picture is Joe Doyle, instead of the intended
Larry Doyle.

So, by some strange coincidence did this "mix-up" lead to the confusion by the T206 designers when they
initially identified their Joe Doyle card with "N.Y. Nat'l" ?

These Joe/Larry "Doyle mysteries/mix-ups" are really getting convoluted ! ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

OK, I've listed here the 4 (only ?) cards depicting Joe Doyle.....


1906 Sporting Life (Highlanders) postcard

1908-1909 ROSE Co. postcard (erroneously identified as "New York N.L.")

1910 T206 DOYLE, N.Y. Nat'l (error...."Nat'l")....Piedmont 350 (only back)

1910 T206 DOYLE, N.Y. (Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350, Sovereign 350, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear, and Tolstoi)

Are ther any more BB cards depicting Joe Doyle ? ?

TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Ted- you forgot the now famous "Ted Z Mark" error card.

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Posted By: Zinn

I think that covers it. I'm not aware of any others.

Zinn

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

An email, two Joe Doyle's on Ebay, and Al's input brings the total responses to 65.
Three NO-MARK cards and an interesting OLD MILL with the MARK.

We are approx. 2/3 rds. the way to 100 inputs....So, how about it, you avid T206er's....
let's get some more inputs ?

Thanks,

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I deliberately left out the "Ted Z Mark"..Joe Doyle from this list, as it really is not a distinct issue.

I like how JOE D (our resident printer) summed it up on an early post here......when they polished
off the "Nat'l" lettering on the plate, they didn't do a clean job of it the 1st time.

Mike....I have put my Piedmont 350 Joe Doyle (with the MARK) in my All-PIEDMONT set album.....
in the spot that I had reserved for the real Joe Doyle error.
I look at this card as a "poor-man's - wannabe".....Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l.....as it's the closest that
I ever expect to get to owning the Joe Doyle error.

And, if anyone else chooses to view this card as such....be sure you have a Piedmont 350.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

One more SC 350 with NO MARK.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

UPDATED......6/19/07

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........7.........21

Sweet Cap 350......2.........19

Polar Bear.............2.........10

Tolstoi..................0..........1

Old Mill..................1..........1

Sovereign 350........0...........2

EPDG....................0...........0
____________________________

Totals.................12..........54



With 66 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see
approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea
of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".

So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are approaching 3rd base....so, we still have a way to
go to score a run.

Thanks for looking thru your T206 cards,

TED Z

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

As far as the card is concerned, the pressmen were on target.

It's a 1910-11 Sporting Life (M116) Joe Doyle.
A beautiful pastel portait of Joe.
At the bottom of the card you'll find:

Doyle, Cincinnati Nationals

Now here's the kicker.
I pulled out a 1997 SCD Catalog to double check it.
I found it.

It was listed under JIM DOYLE.

ROTFLMAO ... some people don't get no respect.

I got this card from Macrae many years ago.
Unfortunately my infamous scanner is yet to be hooked up.
What good is talking about cards, if you can't show them.

If anyone has a 1910-11 Sporting Life (M116) JIM DOYLE, feel free to post it.

jOE

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Posted By: Zinn

It's our boy Joe!!! (pic courtesy of VCP)

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

You know ... the more I look at all those Joe Doyle's, the more he looks like Larry.

Stay well.
jOE

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Posted By: judson hamlin

Ted - chalk me up for a Piedmont 350 with no mark.

I know that there are some EPdG's out there-- somewhere...

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks for your input, it will be tallied....once I get a few more responses.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

This Sporting Life (M116) card depicting Joe Doyle is another "mix-up" error.

Were the M116 designers intending to portray Joe Doyle who pitched in only 3 games for Cincy in 1910......
or,
were they intending to portray Jim Doyle, the 3rd baseman for Cincy in 1910-11, who played in 137 games ?

What's your guess ?


This is really amazing..FOUR chances to get it right.....the Rose p/c.....the initial T206 of Joe Doyle (Nat'l);
and, the "corrected" (omitting the League affiliation).....and, this M116 card depicting him (but, most likely
intended to portray Jim Doyle).......and, all four times they "screwed-up" !

Judd Bruce "Slow Joe" Doyle just "doesn't get any respect".....way before Rodney Dangerfield ever coined
that expression.

TED Z

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"This Sporting Life (M116) card depicting Joe Doyle is another "mix-up" error.

Were the M116 designers intending to portray Joe Doyle who pitched in only 3 games for Cincy in 1910......
or, were they intending to portray Jim Doyle, the 3rd baseman for Cincy in 1910-11, who played in 137 games ?

What's your guess ?"

*
*

First of all, Clark Griffith, Joe Doyle's original manager back in 1906, took a shot with Joe's arm when he brought him over to the Reds in 1910.
1910 - two teams NY A (3G 0-2) CIN N (5G 0-0) but he was an established pitcher since 1906.

Whereas Jim Doyle 3B, arrived to the majors at the age of 29 in 1910.
He appeared in 7 games, 13 AB, 2 H. ... that's for 1910 in CINCY.

Hans Lobert was the Reds regular 3B, and the M116 already had an image of the Reds third baseman.

In 1911, Jim Doyle played for the Chicago Cubs.
He appeared in 130 games, 472 AB, 133 H ... for 1911 CHI N.

The poor guy passed on in 1912.

As for the pressmen that worked on the Joe Doyle M116 Sporting Life.

They nailed that one dead center on the target.

No Mistake - No Mix - Up - No MYSTERY.

The laffer was the innocent mistake in the 1997 SCD.
Listing the M116 Joe Doyle card as JIM DOYLE.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

JOE

Why are you starting with the 1997 SCD ?.....The very 1st SCD price guide in 1987 listed this Doyle as "Jim Doyle".
Now, I don't know you, or anyone, can blame Krause as the cause of this "mix-up" ?
It is certainly conceivable, given the coincidence of two Doyle's appearing on the roster in 1910, that the Sporting
Life (M116) designers got them confused.

Therefore, I do not know how anyone can be certain which of these two Doyle's (Jim or Joe) on the Cincy team was
intended by the M116 designers. Jim Doyle played in 7 games....Joe Doyle pitched in only 3 games for Cincy.

The M116 set was issued in several series from 1910 to well into 1911. Yes, Lobert is depicted with Cincy in the
M116 set, as he was included in the very 1st series issued in 1910.
In Feb. 1911 he was traded to Philadelphia (NL).

I am very familiar with M116's....I have collected 260 diff. cards of this set and 20 of the Blue variations.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"JOE

Why are you starting with the 1997 SCD ?.....The very 1st SCD price guide in 1987 listed this Doyle as "Jim Doyle".
Now, I don't know you, or anyone, can blame Krause as the cause of this "mix-up" ?
It is certainly conceivable, given the coincidence of two Doyle's appearing on the roster in 1910, that the Sporting
Life (M116) designers got them confused.

Therefore, I do not know how anyone can be certain which of these two Doyle's (Jim or Joe) on the Cincy team was
intended by the M116 designers. Jim Doyle played in 7 games....Joe Doyle pitched in only 3 games for Cincy.

The M116 set was issued in several series from 1910 to well into 1911. Yes, Lobert is depicted with Cincy in the
M116 set, as he was included in the very 1st series issued in 1910.
In Feb. 1911 he was traded to Philadelphia (NL)."

*
*

Let me do this slowly.

1. First, the only SCD catalog that I carry around with me for a checklist, is the 1997 issue. ... they are too heavy.

2. Now you're telling us that Krause started their price list catalog in 1987, (very true) that Krause had the Jim Doyle GOOF UP in the first issue, and has never been corrected.

3. Ted, the M116 were issued 77 years before the Krause SCD Price list, ... and not the other way around.

All the M116's, namely the Joe Doyle card, had their names, and league designations on them.

4. All Krause - SCD had to do, was copy the names ... THEY GOOFED, and never corrected it.

5. As for the pressmen that worked on the 1910 M116 set:
Why would you think that they in 1910 would consider printing a card of Jim Doyle?

7. The choice between the two Doyles on the roster is easy.

One is a 29 year old new comer to the majors, that eventually got 13 AB in 1910.

The other was an established pitcher, That Clark Griffith was counting on.

If you were there, and had a vote in the matter, ... you and SCD would have been the only ones voting for Jim Doyle.