1911 Addie Joss Day??? RPPC at Mile High

[Dardevl]

Thoughts on this "Addie Joss Day" RPPC at Mile High?

https://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDe...entoryid=96984

The image was taken at Bennett Park in Detroit, not League Park, in Cleveland.

It seems that the presumption of Cobb donning a Cleveland uniform overrules the location being incorrect?

Regardless, clearly NOT from Addie Joss Day!

[Dardevl]

For comparison, an overhead view of League Park and a panoramic photo of the Addie Joss Day players, courtesy of REA.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=73300

Note the lack of outfield stands using the 1st baseline for reference. The same location is circled in both images.

Additionally, 2 photos from a LOTG lot showing the outfield wall.

https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...e?itemid=29413

[T206Jim]

You are right, that is not League Park in the Cobb RPPC and thus can't be from Addie Joss Day. I believe images of Cobb in a Cleveland uniform outside of Addie Joss Day are known. Good catch!

[Bicem]

Nice detective work!

Jim, do you know why Cobb was wearing a Cleveland uniform other than for the Joss benefit game?

[Dardevl]

Thanks Jim and Jeff!

I'm working on a Bennett Park dating guide and some of the stadium features happened to stand out to me.

I can't speak to why Cobb would be wearing a Cleveland uniform; But I have run across a later photo with Cobb donning a Cleveland uniform with Tris Speaker auctioned at Heritage, which is clearly not Addie Joss Day either.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...umbnail-071515

[T206Jim]

Deron, as you will note on the panorama of Addie Joss Day the Cleveland team is wearing dark caps. The player applying the tag to the runner is wearing a white cap. The tagging player's uniform and cap matches the Detroit Tigers home uniforms up until 1913.

These facts raise the uncomfortable possibility that the RPPC depicts an actual Cleveland player sliding into a Tiger player at Bennett Park sometime in the early 1910s. A clear image of the sliding player's face would be helpful, but this may be the most likely scenario.

[Dardevl]

Agreed Jim! There seems to be a solid case for an in-depth review of the RPPC and the subjects. However, your scenario seems to have the most validity.

[Bicem]

I'm convinced, not him.

[Casey2296]

Great catch, I had my eye on that one, if the story was true it's a pretty significant PC. One of the reasons I appreciate this place so much.

[Fred]

Nice catch guys!

Why do TPGs encapsulate and label items like post cards incorrectly? I thought the "new" SGC did not like encapsulating items (like post cards and CDVs) they could not correctly label.

My understanding is that SGC didn't want to encapsulate a CDV of Ezra Sutton because they couldn't be sure it was him. However they did encapsulate a team CDV which had Sutton in the team photo. SGC totally blew it when they didn't encapsulate the Sutton CDV because the consignor could have gotten a bit more for the item if it were in a slab.

Look at the following comparison. How could SGC have missed this. Part of the team CDV is on the right (that team CDV was encapsulated). The CDV of Sutton is on the left. Look closely, the picture of Sutton in the team CDV is almost the same image as the other CDV. The understanding is that all the CDVs came in the same scrap book. Wow, I used to stand up for SGC in the past, but anymore, I'm not a huge fan.


Sutton CDV_1.jpg

[Dardevl]

Facial matching is definitely a challenging craft, and is NOT in my particular skillset, with any confidence; I appreciate the persons that can decipher those subtleties.

I lifted the RPPC image from the SGC website (which was not easy to find), and cropped the face of "the slider". Aside from a high-res pre-slabbed image, this may currently be the best/only option to review the Cleveland uniformed player. That, and an in-hand review.

I will let other board members weigh in on a Cobb confirmation or opposition or a possible 1910-11 Cleveland player- This range is determined by the lack of advertisement space in the same location from the confirmed 1909 Cobb "spikes" Baker photo and the 1909 Cobb sliding comparison image, in which a Washington player is manning 3rd base, as well as 1907 and 1909 World Series images at Bennett Park; And a 1912 Navin Field opening.

[calvindog]

It's not Cobb. Nice catch, Deron.

[Dardevl]

Thanks for your input, Jeffrey!

[RCMcKenzie]

There were some famous players on the 1911 Naps. If you search on Baseball Reference under "1911 Cleveland" or "1910 Cleveland", the site includes portrait photos of many of the players on the roster. Look at the top of the page for the row of photos.

I looked around a little last night. It doesn't really look like Joe Jackson or Nap Lajoie. It's a dark photo of a player with his hat down, so it's hard to see his facial features. Would they make a postcard of Terry Turner, Neal Ball, Jack Graney. etc...?

[Dardevl]

I reviewed the faces as well, and for the reasons you mentioned, a positive ID would be challenging, unless a match was blatantly obvious. I think that Neal Ball has a similar facial structure (of the players pictured), but as I stated earlier, I am not good with faces. And in this scenario, ultimately the question is: Is it Cobb?

This can be accomplished in two ways; By positively IDing the player who is sliding, or by finding enough within the available image to confidently say that it is NOT Cobb.

I think that with the context of the location confirmed to be Bennett Park combined with the fact that the 3rd baseman's uniform matches a Tigers' uniform of the era, the likelihood of it being Cobb are diminishing. And the ultimate conclusion is that it's not from Addie Joss Day, a heavy multiplier in the potential price realized.

I do appreciate your input and engagement.

[Dardevl]

A continued search of an accurate setting and uniform combination reveal what SHOULD be present for any Addie Joss Day image.

Compare the baseman's uniform to that of the subject RPPC. Also the stadium features, from what is visible in this example photo (courtesy of REA), we can see that the stadium layout, structure and paint scheme match that of League Park (image from Leland's). This Addie Joss Day photo catches the end of the 3rd baseline grandstands, in the background. Also note, that there are no stands along the flat outfield wall.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=73480

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=83974

[WillowGrove]

Good catch Deron.

I like puzzles like this and thought I'd add some possible dates the photo could have been taken.

Judging by the stands in the photo being filled I am assuming a large crowd. I chose 9,000+ when searching retro sheet. Also, based on Dressed to the Nines, the uniforms could only be 1909-1911. 1912 Home Tigers uni's had pinstripes and I don't see pinstripes. That said below are the games with large crowds AT Detroit vs. Cleveland from 1909-1911.

I know it's not definitive and based on a large crowd and no pinstripes but - each piece of info can help solve...

Also - Moriarty was the 3rd baseman in every game below. (That is 3rd base yes?)

1909:
Sat 4-17 - 12,649
Sun 4-18 - 18,478
Fri 9-10 (2) - 10.398
Sat 9-11 - 9.279

1910:
Opening Day 4-14- 14,063

1911:
Sun 4-16 - 14,063
Sun 4-30 - 14,156
Sun 9-10 - 9,756

Last thing - I would guess it was opening day because that would be reason to send a photographer to cover the game rather than a random Sunday. But just a thought.

[Dardevl]

Thank you Peter!

I am fairly confident in the 1910-11 date range, due to the lack of available advertisement space in the 1909 World Series panoramic and its lack of existence in known prior images;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1909_W...rld-series.jpg

https://digitalcollections.detroitpu...ndora%3A162949

This would be bookended by a 1912 Navin Field opening date. That would narrow the possible dates significantly.

However, ultimately it boils down to the absolutes within the image.

[Dardevl]

Several board members have asked about the communication with MHCC and SGC.

Prior to starting this thread, I reached out via email to both MHCC and SGC. MHCC is aware of my observations and concerns as they responded with disagreement, then dismissiveness; I have yet to hear back from SGC.

MHCC is also aware of this thread, as Brian called to discuss this with me. He offered no counter to the location issue, other than a Cartesian argument, that I cannot truly know what either ballpark looked like, based on the fact that I have never been to either ballpark. He also "deferred" to the SGC flip.

I can't imagine the drop in someone's stomach, when the inaccurate location information comes to light. Unless, as a friend mentioned when discussing this, the buyer just collects flips.

[T206Jim]

Very disappointing ... to say the least.

[JollyElm]

There is a real decent chance that is Ty Cobb. The face structure - from the same exact 'bends' and what not of the ears, the tension lines in his cheek and by his mouth, and the teeth-gritting snarl - is a near-perfect match (I tried to photoshop it a bit to release hidden details, but nothing 'new' was revealed). Obviously, I could be wrong. Since other pictures exist of him in a Cleveland jersey, there's no reason to conclude it was taken on Addie Joss Day. There's got to be a bizarre reason behind him wearing that uniform on other occasions. Certainly, the rules governing attire were way looser back then, so who knows what was going on??

You should 're-Cartesian Circle' that guy and say, "You didn't witness every uniform Ty Cobb wore, so how are you able to say the pic could only be from Addie Joss Day???"

Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but the biggest dispeller of this photo originating from Addie Joss Day is that big white building in right or right center. As far as I know (not much on this subject), nothing like that appears there in the 'Joss Day' stadium, so wouldn't that prove the case?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Dardevl

Several board members have asked about the communication with MHCC and SGC.

Prior to starting this thread, I reached out via email to both MHCC and SGC. MHCC is aware of my observations and concerns as they responded with disagreement, then dismissiveness; I have yet to hear back from SGC.

MHCC is also aware of this thread, as Brian called to discuss this with me. He offered no counter to the location issue, other than a Cartesian argument, that I cannot truly know what either ballpark looked like, based on the fact that I have never been to either ballpark. He also "deferred" to the SGC flip.

I can't imagine the drop in someone's stomach, when the inaccurate location information comes to light. Unless, as a friend mentioned when discussing this, the buyer just collects flips.

That argument hinging on needing an eyewitness to an event over a century ago to determine anything should be reason enough to dismiss the claim. I can't see why we would think this is anything but a Cleveland player during a game. The facial features are not very clear.


More sadly, I don't know why we would expect graders or auctioneers to be able to defend their claims at all either

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Dardevl

MHCC is also aware of this thread, as Brian called to discuss this with me. He offered no counter to the location issue, other than a Cartesian argument, that I cannot truly know what either ballpark looked like, based on the fact that I have never been to either ballpark.

Photographic evidence of what the ballparks looked like in 1911 are far better evidence than the memory of someone who was at least 10 years old at the time (who would be 120 years old today.) Most of us know what the Eiffel Tower looks like, though a small percentage of us have actually seen it in person.

That response is completely devoid of reason. Hopefully SGC will admit their mistake.

[drumback]

Terry Turner, perhaps?

[drumback]

Turner has a facial structure similar to Cobb. The more I look at photos of Turner, the more convinced I am it's him.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's his T206. Turner was my first suggestion in post 14. I learned what to look for from reading your posts in the past. I was looking for a Cleveland player with wide ears.

[calvindog]

Looks like MH pulled it.

[T206Jim]

Glad to see they did the right thing.

[Dardevl]

Thanks for everyone's engagement, views and interest!

Hopefully, now a critical review and analysis will occur, resulting in an accurately described RPPC.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Dardevl

Thanks for everyone's engagement, views and interest!

Hopefully, now a critical review and analysis will occur, resulting in an accurately described RPPC.

MarkP and PeterF and you guys are the experts. It appears to be a Turner sliding into Moriarty postcard. I doubt there is a ton of interest in it, now. I think it's neat. I don't really collect postcards though.

[Rhotchkiss]

The card has been pulled from the auction. Personally, I think it could certainly be Cobb. I do not think it’s Addie Joss day. Regardless, I think Mile High did the right thing under the circumstances (likely after consultation with consignor and perhaps SGC).