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  #1  
Old 01-17-2009, 06:06 AM
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Posted By: Greg

I have a few nice GAI that I'm considering as candidates for crossovers to PSA. Any success getting PSA to keep the grades from GAI? Should I crack them and send them over? Seems risky but may be worth it...how do GAI cards typically do?

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  #2  
Old 01-17-2009, 06:13 AM
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Posted By: Steve F

Personally, I'd crack 'em out and send in raw.

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  #3  
Old 01-17-2009, 06:17 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I've had little to no success on crossing GAI to PSA with the same grade.

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  #4  
Old 01-17-2009, 06:39 AM
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Posted By: Greg

Is there an easy way to crack em? Any advice? I would hate to damage these cards.

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  #5  
Old 01-17-2009, 08:03 AM
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Posted By: Peter

I sent in 25 cards to PSA for crossover recently and was very disapointed with the results.



6 GAI cards - 2 crossed over and 4 rejected

(I was willing to take min. grades of .5-1 less)



13 SGC cards - 7 crossed over and 6 rejected (largest value cards all rejected)

(I wanted equal grades for them)



4 Beckett cards - 3 crossed over and 1 rejected as trimmed (large value card rejected as being trimmed and I do not believe it is - grader error)

(I wanted equal grades for them)



2 other - both rejected

(the 1 I would take any PSA grade was rejected as trimmed.



The most disapointing aspect to me in this process was the fact that they would not cross over 6 of my SGC cards to an equal grade. Is PSA superior to SGC in determining a cards true grade? All of the higher value cards in this submission were rejected for crossover ($800 - $1850 USD value cards).



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  #6  
Old 01-17-2009, 08:22 AM
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Posted By: Fred C

Peter, not that I would give PSA credit for anything, but... were the SGC graded cards severely off centered?

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  #7  
Old 01-17-2009, 08:41 AM
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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Here is my history of crossover attempts to PSA:

From SGC to PSA:

(1) SGC 96 (9) crossed to PSA 9
(2) SGC 96 (9) crossed to PSA 9
(3) SGC 96 (9) returned - did not meet min grade 8.5
(4) SGC 96 (9) downgraded to PSA 8
(5) SGC 88 (8) returned - altered
(6) SGC 88 (8) returned - did not meet min grade 8
(7) SGC 88 (8) returned - did not meet min grade 8
(8) SGC 88 (8) downgraded to PSA 7
(9) SGC 84 (7) downgraded to PSA 6
(10) SGC 60 (5) downgraded to PSA 4.5

From GAI to PSA:

(1) GAI 9.5 returned - altered
(2) GAI 9.5 returned - altered

From BVG to PSA:

(1) BVG 6 returned - altered

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  #8  
Old 01-17-2009, 08:57 AM
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Posted By: Peter

Fred C. - I have 4 of them lying handy (of these 2 of the SGC cards I would say are very close to 50/50 centering, highest value card (of these 4) is 50/50 top-to-bottom and it is exactly 57/43 left to right - just measured) and last of these is 50/50 top-to-bottom and 30/70 left to right.

I find it odd that the highest value cards would not cross over and the lower value ones did. I just cannot understand why PSA is superior to SGC in determining a cards true value - CAN ANYONE HELP ME WITH THIS - do they have the finest graders in the world? Is their methodology, QC control and rigid attention to detail better than SGC's? Are they de-valuing SGC cards in the market place by doing this - seems so?

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  #9  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:03 AM
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Posted By: Fred C

Peter,

What were the cards that did not cross?

PSA with superior grading? I'm guessing you're being sarcastic or you're working on a comedy routine.

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  #10  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:05 AM
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Posted By: Peter

Thank you for sharing your cross over results as well - it seems like PSA is again saying that SGC, GAI and BVG are inferior and not at all up to their standards. At least your high value cards were crossed over - congrats on that!

Problem is once you are hooked into their registry and need PSA cards, it is almost not worth buying SGC cards that come up (or BVG) for anywhere near the VCP as PSA is only going to cross at best 50% of them over. I am not happy about this.

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  #11  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:11 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

I think both PSA and SGC have found it in their interests to be tough with grades. Certainly each wants their cards to trade at a premium. I have never bought an sgc 88 in hope that it will cross.If I had one I would crack it out first.

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  #12  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:21 AM
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Posted By: Peter

Thanks for your opinion Jim. I feel that if SGC, BVG and PSA are the backbone of the card grading industry (and they are) that the grades given by these companies should be fairly close to each other. I can understand competetion between the grading companies, however, I believe that 75%-80% of the cards should crossover between these companies (not 50%). I do not like cracking cards out of cases - I would expect that a professional grading compny values my business and would treat me fairly regardless of whether or not cards I submit are in holders other than theirs. You would think they are happy to have the cards in their holders. I find it hard to believe that there is such a discrepancy in grades of the top 3 card grading companies. PSA should be crossing over more than 50% of SGC and BVG cards or else they are saying those companies grading standards are inferior to theirs and that is what it seems they are saying. I do not agree with this.

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  #13  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:23 AM
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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I have always assumed that grading companies have to be somewhat conservative when dealing with crossovers, where they are examining a card that is in a holder, and can't be as carefully inspected as when it is out of the holder, raw. If they decide to crack a card out, and then find on closer inspection that they can't meet the specified minimum grade, or even assign any grade at all because they discover that the card has been altered, they are stuck. It seems they would have to have some level of certainty, when looking at the card in the holder, that the card is unaltered and going to meet at least the target grade, before proceeding with the crossover.

The idea that PSA summarily rejects, or intentionally downgrades, cards they receive for crossover, in order to plant the notion in collectors' minds that PSA is more skilled at authenticating and grading than their competitors, is certainly a possibility, but I have not ever seen any evidence of this. I don't know what fraction of their business comes from crossover submissions, but I would think that they would want to do a credible enough job to be able to sustain that business, and that would supercede any desire to engage in gamesmanship about who is the toughest grader.

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  #14  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:31 AM
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Posted By: Peter

Those are fair and fine comments Eric. I think it is great that you are OK with the way PSA treated your cards and I am glad you shared your results with us. You had 2/13 cards meet the expectations you asked PSA to meet and paid for and you are OK with what they did. I wish I felt the way you did (I really do), however I do not. I just paid them $500 USD (including grading, insurance and shipping) to cross over 25 cards and 50% were rejected. I am not sure what you paid for your 13 cards to be crossed over (if you pay the same rates I do that would be $260 USD) for your 2 cross overs - that is $130 USD per cross over - seems very steep to me.

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  #15  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:32 AM
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Posted By: leon

I am not, by any means, disparaging the way anyone collects....BUT, when you play the "I collect plastic" game then these things will happen. I do collect a tiny bit by number but only for resale. I enjoy cards more than plastic but to each their own. It's all fun....but don't be disappointed when one slabber doesn't agree with another. It's only an opinion by a human...best regards

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  #16  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:48 AM
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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Peter -- I am not real happy with the results I got from my PSA crossover attempts, or the total amount of money I essentially wasted on the failed ones. I just think crossovers are a difficult thing for the grading companies to deal with, for the reason I mentioned above -- they are taking a risk that a card that is cracked out will be found on closer inspection to have problems or anomalies (e.g. in the edges or surface) that were not detectable when in the holder.

But I know nothing about how grading actually works, so maybe that is all in my imagination. I was talking to the customer service guy at SGC a while ago, and he suggested that they have reached the point where they can identify an altered card when still in a holder, as easily as they can after it is cracked out.

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  #17  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:51 AM
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Posted By: Jim VB

"...they can identify an altered card when still in a holder..."

What???? There are altered cards in holders???!!! You haven't told anyone have you?




happy.gif

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  #18  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:52 AM
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Posted By: leon

"I was talking to the customer service guy at SGC a while ago, and he suggested that they have reached the point where they can identify an altered card when still in a holder, as easily as they can after it is cracked out."


I dunno...that sounds crazy to me.....

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  #19  
Old 01-17-2009, 10:03 AM
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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Leon, I may not be remembering exactly what the SGC guy said. He did say that they can clearly see the usual tell-tale signs of trimming -- wavyness in the edges or whatever it is, when looking at a card in a holder. So they can reject certain cards immediately, without having to break them out.

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  #20  
Old 01-17-2009, 10:04 AM
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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I just had these cards crossed from PSA to SGC along with 8 raw cards graded.
They all really crossed at equivalent grades - of course not 8's.

1911 Zeenut French PSA 3 to SGC 40
1911 Zeenut Gregory PSA 3mk to SGC 20
1911 Zeenut Heister PSA 3 to SGC 40
1911 Zeenut Hoffman PSA 4 to SGC 50
1911 Zeenut Wolverton PSA 3mk to SGC 20
1910 Obak Krapp PSA 4 to SGC 50

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  #21  
Old 01-17-2009, 10:36 AM
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Posted By: Peter

HI Peter! Thanks for sharing those results. You got 100% crossover from PSA to SGC (very nice - I think 75-80% would be fine and reasonable) - So what is the deal crossing the other way - to PSA -it does not make sense - PSA is saying their standards are tougher and cards in their holders at an equivalent grade are superior.

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  #22  
Old 01-17-2009, 11:00 AM
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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Peter - I don't cross much the other way - only T204's and E103's and have had similar results. I do think that in mid grades PSA is more concerned with centering and SGC sharpness of image and corners. So there can be discrepancies around these issues. I have had horrible results with the few GAI I have crossed to either PSA or SGC.

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  #23  
Old 01-17-2009, 11:15 AM
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Posted By: George Dreher

Whatever you do, don't submit them in a GAI slab.
Break them out and send raw.

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  #24  
Old 01-17-2009, 11:40 AM
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Posted By: George

Don't even bother, especially if you want an equivalent grade...ie...GAI 6 to PSA 6. Many GAI's I owned back in the day didnt cross over even when I asked for .5 or a 1.0 drop in grade. Also, I never send any of my T206 SGC 60's over to cross to PSA 5'S. It just rarely happens in my experience. PSA is a corners company, more than SGC, who takes everything in to account. Personally i feel PSA 5 cards are much better looking than my SGC 60's in the same set, but I do love the way the cards look in SGC holders. I have come to the point where I know/expect what grade they are going to give me most of the time.

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  #25  
Old 01-17-2009, 11:46 AM
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Posted By: Fred C

Peter,

Can you tell us which cards did not cross over? Perhaps PSA was uncomfortable with crossing some of the cards with higher value. I haven't crossed over any cards but it sounds like PSA will charge you, even if the cards don't cross over. Is that correct?

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  #26  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:08 PM
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Posted By: Neal Kane

I have had very good success crossing my PSA cards over to SGC -- many received 1/2 grade bumps. Those cards were graded prior to the advent of the PSA half grade however. Only three out of 40 or so did not cross, and one of those went from a PSA 4 to an SGC 40 (which was the correct grade).



To me, there is absolutely no comparison on the way the cards present in the holder. I also find the SGC crew of Brian, Mike, and Sean very easy to deal with. I also get the feeling that if I sent a PSA 7 that warranted an 88, I would get it. I do not think that would happen in reverse (84 to an 8), but that is only a personal perception.

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  #27  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:18 PM
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Posted By: joe brennan

Crossing any GAI card over is a crap shoot at best. If you have a very keen eye I would look at them very carefully. Alot of high grade GAI cards have come back altered.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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  #28  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:23 PM
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Posted By: George

I agree, in regards to the holder and customer service/treatment they win. Hands down.

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  #29  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:25 PM
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Posted By: Peter

Hi Fred C, - I know this the pre-war side so I was keeping my comments to card grading in general rather than any mention of post war cards that I know alot of members want no mention of on this pre war side. All of cards submitted were 52 Topps of which I have a master set. Cards in particular where I felt PSA was wrong in their grading were #373 Jim Turner SGC 7, #406 Nuxhall BVG 7.5 and several low numbers in SGC 7.

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  #30  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:34 PM
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Posted By: Peter

I agree with not bothering trying to cross any GAI cards to PSA or SGC. I wanted this Rosen card in a PSA 7 holder. I have never cracked a card out of a case before so I thought I would cross it first to SGC and then send the SGC to PSA as I thought they would look at it more favourably. I sent this very nice GAI 7.5 Rosen to SGC and they sent it back to me saying they would not cross it over because of the top right corner. To me that is a joke honestly - If that corner was any nicer the card would be an 8.5 or 9 or better. A 7 is only NRMT (a slight flaw in a place or two). I know I am venting a bit, howver it is making me feel better.

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

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  #31  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:56 PM
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Posted By: jay wolt

"I thought I would cross it first to SGC and then send the SGC to PSA"

1 card eventually becomes 3 fees from 3 different grading companies
gets to be very pricey after awhile

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  #32  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:59 PM
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Posted By: Scott Fandango

Do not even bother sending in a GAI to PSA for crossover, especially now since GAI's demise.....there is no way PSA would risk slabbing an altered card in a crossover.....i have tried and NEVER had a GAI crossover....



Also, its to PSA's advantage (financially speaking) to reject 50% of the crossovers....first they save on the labor and parts by rejecting some right off the bat....along with this comes the perceived notion that PSA is "very strict" and they can see a "trimmed card" within the holder..

.....two birds with one stone, less overhead expense and indirect advertising of their expertise...win win for them

i find it much more successful to crack and submit, especially if you are confident the card is unaltered....

if i had time i would get together my cracked out flips with new results..

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  #33  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:04 PM
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Posted By: Peter

I have been very picky with cards to send in for grading and crossing over. The Rosen card has a low pop (great for my set registry) and relatively high value (depends what you consider relatively high - a PSA 7 is worth $400-$600 USD)so getting it in a PSA 7 holder is well worth while. However, as it is not in a PSA 7 holder it has been a timely and expensive exercise to date. If you read the thread above, I have also wasted $260 USD with cards that PSA would not crossover. I am not happy about wasting money.

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  #34  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:05 PM
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Posted By: JDRUM

"I was talking to the customer service guy at SGC a while ago, and he suggested that they have reached the point where they can identify an altered card when still in a holder, as easily as they can after it is cracked out."

They're getting so good, pretty soon you'll just have to send them a scan.

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  #35  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:11 PM
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Posted By: Peter

I hate to think a public company would do it, however, I also wonder about PSA's motives. They have very little incentive to crossover cards, give out proper grades or bump up cards. They make way more off people cracking cards for resubmission.

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  #36  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:17 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

on the Rosen. Top right corner is slightly bat-eared and they hate that at SGC.
Not to start a row, but I wouldn't have crossed it either.

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  #37  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:21 PM
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Posted By: Peter

It is only a 7 - not a 7.5, 8, 8.5, 9 or 9.5 - A NRMT card can and should have slight flaws - otherwise it would be mint

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  #38  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:21 PM
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Posted By: Peter

It is only a 7 - not a 7.5, 8, 8.5, 9 or 9.5 - A NRMT card can and should have slight flaws - otherwise it would be mint

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  #39  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:36 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

A bat ear isn't considered a flaw that drops grades, but rather suggests possible trimming. It's almost impossible to create a flared cut on an industrial cutter/trimmer/guillotine, however a hand held blade or scissors run against a straight edge will often flare out at the end of a cut.

Just one of those things some grading companies don't like to opine/mess with, and to be honest I completely understand their thinking.

It won't be the last time you come up against this issue as more people try and clean up valuable card edges and corners in the hopes of making easy money.
Sad but true.


All the best
Daniel

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  #40  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:44 PM
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Posted By: Scot


I suspect that on a percentage basis GAI sees a lot more altered cards than PSA or SGC for the simple reason that GAI is the grader of last resort (well, okay, there is PRO). I doubt too many people would send an unaltered high value card to GAI before trying both PSA and SGC first since the market pays a considerable premium for PSA and SGC holders. Moreover, by the time GAI even got in the authentication/grading business a respectable percentage of unaltered high value cards were already in PSA or SGC holders.

So there is nothing nefarious going on when a large share of high grade GAI cards are rejected by PSA and SGC on crossover. PSA and SGC have probably already seen and rejected many of these cards before.

I'm sure there are some very nice unaltered high grade GAI cards, but when it comes to GAI the general rule seems to be garbage in, garbage out.

EDITED TO ADD: I am actually sorry to see GAI in financial difficulty. I believe they are well-intentioned, but just got into the game too late.

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  #41  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:46 PM
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Posted By: Peter

Thanks for your comments - I would have no problem if SGC said possible trimming, probable trimming, possible tampering or probable tampering - alterations. They did not say this - they said they could not cross it over to a minimum grade of 7 - the card is fine - they will not crossover the card to at least an SGC 7 because of the corner.

When I get the cards back from PSA and SGC - they say either evidence of trimming/alteration or they cannot meet minimum grade.

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  #42  
Old 01-17-2009, 01:57 PM
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Posted By: Peter

I want to thank people for their comments and data. I did get a little side tracked and started venting on SGC for their failure to crossover the Rosen card. I wish to state that I have more problems with PSA than SGC. I believe PSA consider themselves superior to SGC and BVG and are of the opinion that cards in their holders are superior with an equivalent grade. I would welcome more data on crossovers, the early evidence is SGC crosses over way more PSA's to an equal or higher grade and PSA crosses far less SGC's to an equivalent or higher grade.

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  #43  
Old 01-17-2009, 02:33 PM
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Posted By: Steve

Crossover is a waste of time and money IMO.

Crack them out and send them in raw that way they get
an unbiased honest opinion.


They just won't cross valuable cards at grade simply
because they can't see the entire card.

Save yourself some time and money and crack them.


Steve

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  #44  
Old 01-17-2009, 05:38 PM
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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

My crossover results-

From Gai to PSA

Sent in 2 GAI 8's and both failed
Cracked them both out and resent and they both came back PSA 8's
(will never send in another GAI in slab, lesson learned)

From SGC to PSA

Sent in 2 SGC 88 and one crossed at an 8 other as a 7
Sent in an SGC 96 and came back a PSA 6 (just cracked it out and resent it in raw)


From PSA to SGC (Mostly mid grade exhibits)

Total Cards sent in- 65 (100%)
Crossover same grade- 39 (60%)
Crossover Minus one grade- 13 (20%)
Crossover Plus one grade+- 12 (18%)
Did Not cross 1 (02%)

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