Post a Stupid Question - Prewar 101

[steve B]

Ok, the actual explanation for "rookie" cards being worth more -

Before collecting became somewhat mainstream cards were mostly collected by kids. Kids typically collected for 2-4 years, and after that time the cards went into a sort of collecting limbo. Maybe given to a younger brother (Or sister as I did with some of mine) Maybe stored out of sight until mom found them after HS graduation, maybe just tossed.

Also typically, a player didn't become an overnight sensation. So they might not get a really big following until maybe their 4th or 5th year.

When cards were being disposed of sometimes a kid would hang on to a few favorites. These were more often established stars or locally popular players.
So the first cards of some players survived in lower quantities than cards of stars.

Once the hobby became more mainstream, this became more of a traditional thing rather than anything based on there being fewer available. And with the proliferation of draft pick cards and eventually a few high school prospects sets it got silly. So I believe it was Beckett that produced a definition of a "rookie card" That has become a generally accepted standard.

Whether that definition truly makes sense is a matter perhaps for its own thread, I personally disagree with it on some points, but it's accepted and overall isn't bad although it gets trickier for prewar cards. (It's skewed towards what can be reliably sold by a dealer, so most of the tougher cards are out, and the mainstream ones that exist in quantities from "not too tough" to "my goodness they made a lot of these" are in.


There are a number of people here who collected before what I consider the first big boom, roughly 77-81 and a bit beyond, Their recollection of the timing may be different as 77 was when I began seriously collecting and 77- 81 saw a large increase in full time or more serious part time dealers. From a handful in the country to several in any major city. The downturn caused by the 81 strike took out a bunch of the ones that weren't well funded or just weren't all that into being a card dealer.


Steve B

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Did Shoeless Joe ever play in the majors without shoes? If he did, how did he avoid getting spiked?

Ah yes, a blast from the past.

[clydepepper]

Just how did Archie Graham know who Gil Hodges was?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Just how did Archie Graham know who Gil Hodges was?

Raymond, Great observation to a great movie. Also, why did he acknowledge Mel Ott?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I see a lot of T206 Polar Bears with tobacco staining. Is this a common trait or just a coincidence? Were they packed differently than other issues? Also, why are American Beauty borders so thin?

AB borders are thinner than other T206 because the cigarette packs that they came in were more narrow than the other packs.

[mooch]

what is a pre rookie card and who decides it?

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Sean

AB borders are thinner than other T206 because the cigarette packs that they came in were more narrow than the other packs.

Thank you, Sean. Makes sense.

Makes me wonder if T206 PSA 8s also came in smaller packs.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by xplainer

PB's were packaged in raw tobacco packs..in contact with the tobacco.
The others were in a side pocket of the cigarette pack.

I knew there had to be a reason. Thank you for the explanation, xplainer.

[mechanicalman]

While we are still in a judgement-free zone, another question:

Why are Exhibits so relatively affordable? I assumed it was a pop issue, but consider this: PSA has graded 158 DiMaggio 39-46 Exhibits and over 1000 39 Play Ball DiMaggios. The SMR of a Play Ball PSA 5 is roughly 5x the price of the Exhibit. And in my opinion, the Exhibit is so much better looking (less toothy.) Any hypotheses are welcome.

[Snapolit1]

Since they are postcards some folks don't consider them to be true baseball cards.

I love them. Some of my most favorite pieces.

[Snapolit1]

Ditto for Leaf and Goudey Premiums. The Rith Goudey premium is rare and stunning, and you can buy a decent one for under $1000.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Also, why are American Beauty borders so thin?

Box was narrower

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Just how did Archie Graham know who Gil Hodges was?

He lived a long life as a doctor, and Hodges was a well known ball-player. If we suppose he kept his knowledge when he reverted to his youth it could make sense. We really quibbling over what makes sense in a fantasy/ghost story?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I'll bet that many of you have questions about vintage prewar cards that you are embarrassed to ask. This thread is for you. Ask a stupid question or answer someone else's stupid question. And you don't need to be a noob to participate.

If successful, this thread will be a treasure trove for new converts to prewar collecting. So without further ado, let's get started with the first question.

Were T202 Triple Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Since I have never seen a looooong prewar cigarette, I presume they were folded, which begs the question are all high grade T202 cards creased as a result?

The premise of this thread was to post a stupid question that you would otherwise be embarrassed to post. The presumption was that most stupid questions could be answered by the "intelligentsia" on the board quite easily in what has been rightly referred to as a "Judgement-free zone".

The questions posed have been for the most part appropriate and many answers have been given.

So why in the hell after twelve hours has my initial question been ignored. Perhaps it wasn't so stupid after all. Maybe starting out with the triple folder question was a bit presumptuous on my part, so i will ask another related question.

Were T201 Double Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?

and

Are all high grade T201 cards creased as a result of their packaging?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Sean

AB borders are thinner than other T206 because the cigarette packs that they came in were more narrow than the other packs.

There is still some debate about the American Beauty cigarette packs, as it appears there were some that were possibly wider. The following thread from awhile back discusses some possibilities, and has images of American Beauty packs.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ghlight=beauty

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The premise of this thread was to post a stupid question that you would otherwise be embarrassed to post. The presumption was that most stupid questions could be answered by the "intelligentsia" on the board quite easily in what has been rightly referred to as a "Judgement-free zone".

The questions posed have been for the most part appropriate and many answers have been given.

So why in the hell after twelve hours has my initial question been ignored. Perhaps it wasn't so stupid after all. Maybe starting out with the triple folder question was a bit presumptuous on my part, so i will ask another related question.

Were T201 Double Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?

and

Are all high grade T201 cards creased as a result of their packaging?

Wish I could help you Frank...I can only answer slow-pitch softball questions.

Brian

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

since they were indeed folded in the packs, and it was a machine fold, I don't believe they are technically considered creases. What does often happen is that the hinge (what the intelligentsia call the crease) wears on the edges of the cards the more it is used and you get a notching effect on the borders. In my experience this is what can really damage the grade of an otherwise appealing T201 or T202.

[Paul S]

Frank, I can't answer your question, but...

Why are T202 Hassan named Triple Folders when they only have 2 folds?
Why are they not called Hassan Triptychs?
Why do I occasionally see them with a center crease?
Why do people cut them in thirds and sell the pieces on ebay?(Hi Brian)

Are strip cards naked?

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

He lived a long life as a doctor, and Hodges was a well known ball-player. If we suppose he kept his knowledge when he reverted to his youth it could make sense. We really quibbling over what makes sense in a fantasy/ghost story?

Scott - you missed the joke...I was just sharing what I consider a stupid question...as per the thread title.

I love that movie - even with it's imperfections. Movies, after all, are at their best when they serve as escapism and Field of Dreams definitely fits that bill.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

Are strip cards naked?

only if they are not graded (RAW)

[Billy5858]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

only if they are not graded (RAW)

[LuckyLarry]

I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.

A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.

VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.

The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.

To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.

Larry

[ajquigs]

I'm enjoying this thread.

A question: Are there any prevailing guesstimates / conventional wisdom on roughly how many cards were produced - and how many survive - for particular sets. For example, do people in the hobby have some rough idea how many 1933 Goudey #181 Babe Ruths or T-206 Dark Cap Mattys (or cards in Topps issues, while we're at it) were produced and survive?

Thanks.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by LuckyLarry

I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.

A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.

VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.

The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.

To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.

Larry

Larry,

Like Jeopardy, in order to get one of my stupid answers, your stupid question must be in the form of a question.

Sincerely,

Alex Trebec

[LuckyLarry]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Like Jeopardy, in order to get one of my stupid answers, your stupid question must be in the form of a question.
Sincerely,
Alex Trebec

BUSTED! LOL!
Why should I care about "VCP Data" and "SMR Data"?
Larry
(I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.
A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.
VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.
The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.
To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.)

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by LuckyLarry

BUSTED! LOL!
Why should I care about "VCP Data" and "SMR Data"?
Larry
(I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.
A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.
VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.
The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.
To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.)

Larry,

After looking at your cards, I can assure you that you can safely ignore that "data".

You are an outlier, my friend.

[dougscats]

Another reason rookie cards cost more is that they are collected by other than set-collectors. For instance, I'm a hall-of-fame collector, and at this point, having collected most of them, I especially try to get their rookie cards. There are others who only collect rookie cards. So, there's more demand and a larger market for them.

Also, to point out the obvious, it is the player's first season, and that makes the card more special.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The premise of this thread was to post a stupid question that you would otherwise be embarrassed to post. The presumption was that most stupid questions could be answered by the "intelligentsia" on the board quite easily in what has been rightly referred to as a "Judgement-free zone".

The questions posed have been for the most part appropriate and many answers have been given.

So why in the hell after twelve hours has my initial question been ignored. Perhaps it wasn't so stupid after all. Maybe starting out with the triple folder question was a bit presumptuous on my part, so i will ask another related question.

Were T201 Double Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?

and

Are all high grade T201 cards creased as a result of their packaging?

Frank,

Mecca cigarettes were about as long as camel unfiltered. Do they still sell unfiltered cigarettes in the U. S.? But I digress... The cards came folded and that fold can greatly affect the quality of the card. Think chipping and wear on a typical card. I asked about this a few years back in a discussion with Earl, formerly the Customer Service guru at SGC (hey, Earl, what is up). His comments are what you would expect for a standard card with the caveat to pay attention to the condition of the fold.

As for the fold, it is quite evident on higher graded T 201's, but much cleaner, obviously created by machine in the print and coalation process, with a smoother surface. And yes, the condition of the back of the card, especially the fold, will have an impact on grading.

I have a question about T201. The cards were printed at two locations, factory 30 and 649. Which location represents a scarcer card, and why doesn't anyone collect by factory location on these cards like we see on T205, T206, T207?

[LuckyLarry]

Thanks Frank!
outlier: someone who is different or far from a main or related body.
Larry

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by LuckyLarry

Thanks Frank!
outlier: someone who is different or far from a main or related body.
Larry

Congrats. Statistically, being an outlier, you're a 5%er. Not sure if your local motorcycle club has a patch for that, though.

Have a great holiday weekend.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by jmb

Why is there no 51 Bowman Joe DiMaggio ?

Add to that "Why is there no 1955 Topps Mantle?"

[BBB]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

Fr

As for the fold, it is quite evident on higher graded T 201's, but much cleaner, obviously created by machine in the print and coalation process, with a smoother surface. And yes, the condition of the back of the card, especially the fold, will have an impact on grading.

?

I have a partial set. All PSA. I gotta say this is the most inconsistently graded cards (set) I have encountered. The PSA 7 and 4.5 look very similar. It's all in the details of the crease I'm told. But when you look at a stack and try to blindly order them by grade, you'll see you are waaaaay off from what PSA says. Not in any particular direction either. Could be just me, but I've heard others say similar things.

[abroome]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

Add to that "Why is there no 1955 Topps Mantle?"

Mantle was under contract with Bowman at the time.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[egri]

Originally Posted by ajquigs

I'm enjoying this thread.

A question: Are there any prevailing guesstimates / conventional wisdom on roughly how many cards were produced - and how many survive - for particular sets. For example, do people in the hobby have some rough idea how many 1933 Goudey #181 Babe Ruths or T-206 Dark Cap Mattys (or cards in Topps issues, while we're at it) were produced and survive?

Thanks.

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago that had a link to one of Bob Lemke's blog posts where he gave the sales revenue for Topps from 1951-1961, and he had another post that included the sales revenue for Goudey during the 1930s. If we knew how much Topps sold each pack of cards for, and what percentage of that business was baseball cards, then you could get a rough estimate of production for each year.

My question: every time I read about detecting forged baseball cards, there is always something about how modern printing techniques and equipment are different from back then, and knowing those differences can help spot fakes. But other than money, what prevents a forger from buying a printing press from the 1950s, and inks and cardboard from around then, and cranking out a few sheets of 1952 Topps #311s? It seems to me that the knowledge is out there, the equipment and materials are out there, really the only thing that is missing is someone who can tie the two together.

[sago]

Supposedly there are 60-100 T206 Wagners that have survived. Are there any legitimate guesses to how many were likely printed before it was pulled from production?

Is it a relative percentage to all other T206's, so maybe 1% survived, or higher?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The odds of finding the correct vintage cardboard are slim and none. Topps in all likelihood ordered that custom for them. I worked at an ad agency that had it's own print shop. You would not believe the thousands of different types of stock available to print on. To an expert you'd never fool them with the wrong stock.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by BBB

I have a partial set. All PSA. I gotta say this is the most inconsistently graded cards (set) I have encountered. The PSA 7 and 4.5 look very similar. It's all in the details of the crease I'm told. But when you look at a stack and try to blindly order them by grade, you'll see you are waaaaay off from what PSA says. Not in any particular direction either. Could be just me, but I've heard others say similar things.

That is for sure. I can tell you T201's do not cross over well between PSA and SGC. And no way can the eyeball test see the difference between a 7 and an eight without looking at a large number of either. Between a 6 and 7 it can be tough, usually corners, registration, the fold, centering. And guessing on an ungraded card? Forget it, I give up. One card I sent in came back evidence of trimming but danged if I coud see it, with or without magnification. Still, love the set.

[JustinD]

Okay sorry if this crosses the streams on pre/post war...

If as in my estimates T206 was darn close to one of the highest produced sets in card history, but because of barkeeps just sweeping hundreds of them into the trash each night made scarcer by survival in theory. In 100 years does someone see junk wax held in the same regard because it is basically dumped by the ton daily? Really...who is holding junk commons?

I won't be alive to see the day, but it is something I have thought of.

My 2nd question is sadly grading based, which always brings out the TPG hating. Sorry...

Why does PSA sometimes number grade hand cut cards, but not always? I have strip and sheet cut cards with PSA numbers. The growling on BVG is that they will grade sheet cuts and the PSA guys say that with disdain, which is silly because PSA has certainly graded sheet cuts. What is the reasoning on the 50/50 standard on hand cuts with all of the TPGs honestly? It seems all of them either give a grade or an "auth", with no rhyme or reason.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Jobu

If Honus Wagner made ALC pull his T206 because he didn't want his image to help promote tobacco use in children, then why did the Flying Dutchman let this fly 40 years later?

because kids didn't have to buy a pack of cigarettes to get the card.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Why does PSA sometimes number grade hand cut cards, but not always? I have strip and sheet cut cards with PSA numbers. The growling on BVG is that they will grade sheet cuts and the PSA guys say that with disdain, which is silly because PSA has certainly graded sheet cuts. What is the reasoning on the 50/50 standard on hand cuts with all of the TPGs honestly? It seems all of them either give a grade or an "auth", with no rhyme or reason.

If I understand correctly PSA grades certain hand cuts if they were manufactured to be cut. Imagine a card printed on the box of a food product, you likely picturing something with a dotted outline for cutting. It was manufactured to be cut by the collector, thus PSA will sometimes grade it. It's the explanation I've always heard or assume I heard. Don't really know, I'm getting old.

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Why is a grade on a card called a flip?

AFAIK, the term goes back to the coin business. There are coin holders made of plastic (vinyl or PVC) that are 2x4 inches, with a pocket on each side. Typically a coin goes in one pocket and a card with description, grade, etc goes in the other pocket, then you fold the holder in half so it's 2x2. The holders are called "flips" because you can flip them open. Eventually the card itself came to be called a flip. By extension, anything with a coin's description and grade came to be a flip. And when card grading came into being, by the same company that was doing most of the coin grading (PCGS-->PSA), the analogy was obvious.

Bill

[ASpaceman]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Did Shoeless Joe ever play in the majors without shoes? If he did, how did he avoid getting spiked?

LOL.....classic.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

If I understand correctly PSA grades certain hand cuts if they were manufactured to be cut. Imagine a card printed on the box of a food product, you likely picturing something with a dotted outline for cutting. It was manufactured to be cut by the collector, thus PSA will sometimes grade it. It's the explanation I've always heard or assume I heard. Don't really know, I'm getting old.

I have heard this also, however I have PSA graded 1985 Topps Minis in my test collection and as these were swiped from the Topps dumpster in only sheet form and never cut, nor distributed, they are completely sheet cuts.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by birdman42

AFAIK, the term goes back to the coin business. There are coin holders made of plastic (vinyl or PVC) that are 2x4 inches, with a pocket on each side. Typically a coin goes in one pocket and a card with description, grade, etc goes in the other pocket, then you fold the holder in half so it's 2x2. The holders are called "flips" because you can flip them open. Eventually the card itself came to be called a flip. By extension, anything with a coin's description and grade came to be a flip. And when card grading came into being, by the same company that was doing most of the coin grading (PCGS-->PSA), the analogy was obvious.



Bill

That is interesting, Bill. Thank you for posting.

[Touch'EmAll]

Here is a bonehead question. I won an eBay lot, however I forgot what I put for my max bid was (been out of town and busy). Now that I won the lot I cannot seem to go back and find out what my max bid was - any help? Thanks.

[Billy5858]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

That is interesting, Bill. Thank you for posting.

"AFAIK, the term goes back to the coin business. There are coin holders made of plastic (vinyl or PVC) that are 2x4 inches, with a pocket on each side. Typically a coin goes in one pocket and a card with description, grade, etc goes in the other pocket, then you fold the holder in half so it's 2x2. The holders are called "flips" because you can flip them open. Eventually the card itself came to be called a flip. By extension, anything with a coin's description and grade came to be a flip. And when card grading came into being, by the same company that was doing most of the coin grading (PCGS-->PSA), the analogy was obvious. Bill T."

+1 ..........Still kind of don't get it but Thanks for the info....interesting

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I have a question. If this is Prewar 101, then what happened to the Prewar 1-100 courses? I'm now feeling a bit overwhelmed with these recently posted questions that delve into the deep profundities of older baseball cards.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I have a question. If this is Prewar 101, then what happened to the Prewar 1-100 courses? I'm now feeling a bit overwhelmed with these recently posted questions that delve into the deep profundities of older baseball cards.

Dan,

If you are overwhelmed, we are all in trouble. Did I say that Prewar 101 was an entry level course? Some folks think that profundity is stupid. Q.E.D.

[Tennis13]

Why do some 1934 Goudey Gehrig #37 have a blue printer mark below the L in Lou on the white border, and some don't?