Dating of N184 Kimball Champions

[G1911]

Apologies if I've missed a thread, I was able to locate a number of threads claiming the traditional 1887 date here but nothing where this is questioned.

I've been sorting out all my notebooks and records of boxing N series cards the past few days over the holidays but this one again relates more popularly to baseball than my little niche. The series has long been claimed to be 1887 by most authorities and hobby institutions, significantly pre-dating it's similar releases by A&G and Goodwin.

Series 4 Ancient Coins is typically listed as an 1888 issue, series 6 Fancy Bathers as an 1889 issue. Forbes assigns N184 to the much more likely 1888 date.

The evidence in favor of 1887 seems to be that that was the year all of these 4 players were in the major leagues. The hobby traditionally claims 1) a very short lead time of production between baseball playing dates and card issue dates and 2) focuses only on the cards of baseball subjects to date a series. This is, of course, flawed methodology. A card cannot realistically be released depicting a player with a team he has not yet played on, but that does not mean the players card was released very tight in time to the date he was with that club. Kimball's don't identify the team directly.

The set is less than good when it comes to subjects and its statements in the other sports too, which makes tying it to events to prove it couldn't be released before X date difficult. For just 1 example, Tommy Warren was a featherweight, not a lightweight, so it is difficult to relate its claim of him being the lightweight world champion to any actual historical event.

The evidence against the 1887 date is the coupons for the related album are dated October 1, 1888, July 1, 1889, September 1, 1889 and January 1, 1890. The 1888 coupon is very imprecise with what the date means and if it is a cutoff or start date; the other coupons are precise. The album starting issue years later than the card set makes little to no sense. 1888-1889 seems much, much more likely than the traditional claim with the evidence available. I'd love to see any evidence for any date or an earlier coupon. I would suspect it had a fairly long period of overall issue, with the two types being at a remove from each other but that is just a deduction. I would also expect a 2 sheet production format.

[brianp-beme]

I think the 1888 date is a good possibility, based on the redemption coupons Greg has shown and the following career data. Three of the four players were playing for Major League teams during that year (Dell Darling, Hardie Henderson, and James O'Neill), while the fourth (E.A, or Ernie Burch) finished up his ML career in 1887, but did play for St. Louis in the Western Association in 1888. This league seemed to have pretty good talent, including Kid Nichols for the Kansas City team, but Burch's St. Louis team disbanded on June 20th, 1988, and it doesn't show that he was picked up by any other team after that. He was out of baseball in 1889, which in my eyes the mid-season departure in 1888 plus being out of organized ball in 1889 makes it less likely that a card of him would have been issued in 1889.


On an unrelated historical note, three out of these four died pretty young: 36 for Burch, 40 for Henderson, and 42 for Darling. O'Neill lasted until the ripened old age of 55. The Curse of the Kimball Champions baseball players?

Just think...not much more than a century ago, if we instead lived during that time frame, a lot of us wouldn't have been around long enough to build up our collections as much. A sobering thought.

Stick that in your Festivus pipe and thank your lucky stars that your collections were assembled in our era.


Brian

[Directly]

The four N184 Kimball Champions Baseball Players.

[G1911]

Putting it together from all my notes for the similar champion athlete sets:

N28 - Late 1888, possibly into early 1889.
N29 - The store poster is August of 1889
N43 - Similar, late 1889
N162 - probably late 1888 into early 1889 or Q1-Q2 1889 alone. Album available and actively advertised until at least August of 1889, probably still after that. Possibly 2 issuances.
N184 - probably late 1888 into 1889; 2 issuances at some remove? Album available until Q1 1890.

It looks like all of the multi-sport champions sets are significantly later than they are traditionally claimed.

Sport and non-sport, there are a lot less 1887 sets than usually claimed.

[Leon]

I have always thought these sets were issued in the '88-'89 timeframie.

Originally Posted by G1911

Putting it together from all my notes for the similar champion athlete sets:

N28 - Late 1888, possibly into early 1889.
N29 - The store poster is August of 1889
N43 - Similar, late 1889
N162 - probably late 1888 into early 1889 or Q1-Q2 1889 alone. Album available and actively advertised until at least August of 1889, probably still after that. Possibly 2 issuances.
N184 - probably late 1888 into 1889; 2 issuances at some remove? Album available until Q1 1890.

It looks like all of the multi-sport champions sets are significantly later than they are traditionally claimed.

Sport and non-sport, there are a lot less 1887 sets than usually claimed.

[Jay Wolt]

I always though they were issued in 1887, since that was on the SGC flip

[Directly]

PSA also Labels as ---1887----

[G1911]

Primary source documents > what SGC and PSA claim without evidence.

I’ve never really understood why fiction is so popular in the hobby.

[brianp-beme]

My type card of N184, Hardie Henderson, is a physical manifestation of Henderson's life being cut tragically short at the age of 40.


Brian

[1880nonsports]

I know Joe G. did a pretty exhaustive study on the dates of many 1880-1890 sets. Like the spaghetti sauce it's all HERE somewhere or perhaps in the nonsport site archives. He's a top drawer researcher so I would listen to much of what he says.
While I managed to finish a master set - I framed the album with it's parts to be able to enjoy the players and the colorful backgrounds more easily including a card (front and back), coupon, and binding string. Sorry for the mediocre pix....

[brianp-beme]

Getting tipsy while ringing out the old year.


Brian

[1880nonsports]

my parents tried that in the 60's :-)

Happens when rotating camera and my program never lets me fix it.....