I believe these are Repro's, your thoughts?

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Posted By: dan mckee

http://tinyurl.com/2lvdxs
http://tinyurl.com/2pw23v

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Posted By: Mike

I don't know about the cards, but that reminded me of one of the classic scenes from Grease II.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Ic-d8ldAQ

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

Hey Dan,

These bogus items have been floating around ebay for about 5 years now. I saw one in person at an Antique Shop in New Bedford, MA about 4 years back as well. There have been several threads in the past regarding these, and many involve sellers in the Ohio area.

Patrick

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The seller is a reputable seller...he may not know that these are fakes.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I agree and I wrote him. If others could do the same, I think it will help as my word is mud now-a-days.

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Posted By: Matt

"The seller is a reputable seller...he may not know that these are fakes."

Dan B - I don't know anything about the ad, but if indeed it is a fake, then a reputable seller shouldn't put 100% Authentic in bold print multiple times in their listing. Perhaps "I am unsure about authenticity" for a reputable seller.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Very interesting point Matt. I don't think these Tuxedo cards were ever made original like these. I think these are a fabricated repro from pieces of items. Ted Z and I once talked about these here on Net54. Dan.

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Posted By: Matt

Dan M - but the seller clearly says: "This is not a cheap reproduction..This is a BIG $$$$ item"

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Matt, I was just going by his feedback and the other items he has up for sale...I admit I didn't even read the auctions, but only looked at the pictures. He probably believes them to be 100% authentic because someone probably sold them to him that way.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I am with you Matt. Stating 100% authentic when not knowing is strange. I am 99.9% sure they are created fakes. Dan.

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Posted By: Matt

Dan B - gotcha. I would still prefer "I don't know about them, but a dealer told me they were authentic."

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I've emailed the seller to let him know they are fantasy items.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Who edited my URL? Dan

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I turned them into tinyurls so you don't have to scroll left-right to read the thread.

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Posted By: dan mckee

very cool, just making sure I wasn't losing my mind.

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Posted By: Matt

Assuming the seller retracts the listing, this still smacks of unethical ebay behavior. Assuming the facts are as we are supposing, the seller had a choice to make - sell it as 100% authentic and hope you don't get caught (and hope it IS authentic) or sell it as "unknown authenticity" and take a hit financially. The only downside for the seller in the first option is that if he gets caught he either ends the auction or refunds the buyers money. Both possibilites are significantly cheaper to listing it as "questionable authenticity."

Unfortunately, this ebay behavior is fairly common (even amongst big ebay sellers) - consider a seller advertising a raw card as being in NM when it is in fact trimmed. The seller could say the card is trimmed (or may be trimmed), but the lost income would far outweigh the option of processing a return if the buyer finds out it is trimmed, and there's hope that the buyer won't know the difference or won't want to be out the 2X shipping costs and will keep the card.

In all such cases the seller can always claim it was an honest mistake - I didn't know it was fake or I didn't know it was trimmed and appear morally clean which is exactly why it is unethical. With a unique item such as this, I would expect a seller to let us know why she thinks it is 100% authentic - "because a dealer told me so" or "because they said so on the Net54 board." Otherwise, a statement of "100% Authentic" suggests that the seller is enough of an authority on the item to be certain of its authenticity.

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Posted By: dstudeba

I have seen some that I believe to be real and they had 2 or 4 small metal reinforced manufactured holes for hanging the piece. I do not believe these are real.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Very valid points Matt. I recently sold a raw T206 South League player of Revelle that I thought might be trimmed so I stated that. I lost $70 on the item. Dan.

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Posted By: Alan

Dan -

Next time someone tries to sell a fake card on ebay, sing this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyu7nN3kBnw

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Posted By: dennis

take a look at the other items he has for sale. if the alexander and the matty were purchased with the other items as a lot, i would tend to think they are authentic. if this seller is making this claim i would think he has some good provenance on all these items.

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Posted By: David Smith

ACOFIND, a KNOWN seller of fakes, reproduction and reprinted items have had signs like these for sale in the last couple of months. Heck, THIS seller may have BOUGHT them from ACOFIND.

I am pretty sure, I and others from this board, reported ACOFIND to eBay for listing one of these as originals last year, when it was a fake amd eBay removed the item.

David

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I have seen these same signs for sale from other known ebay scammers other than acofind as well.

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Posted By: Bill Todd

These lots both ended about an hour ago. "No longer for sale."

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The seller in this instance is a former Net54 poster and a good guy. There is much more to the story here and I am not at liberty to say anything more. If he wants to chime in he will.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Once again, as has become typical on this board, someone makes an assumption, which leads to more assumptions, which lead to conlusions being made about a seller, whether it be on eBay or the B/S/T board. All of this based on what a few people think -- not know. Kind of comical how it happens again and again.

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Posted By: Matt

Rob - read the thread again - no one made any conclusions about the seller.

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

Well, I had also emailed the seller about the card and shared my opinion that the card was a reproduction.

I'll speak for myself and say that I'm sure I've had cards over the years that I didn't catch as being trimmed/altered/etc and then when I looked at it wondered how could I have missed it.

When I was selling cards I handled anything before about 1972...thats a lot of potential sets that you might only happen to buy in a collection once. And if everything in a collection looks legit then you would assume that some cards your not familiar with are also legit. I don't know of any instances where I sold an outright "fake" card. I can recall two instances where other dealers pointed out a trimmed card (and one of them was a substantial card - Ruth), and one instance of a customer pointing out a card that had some color added to it.

I would be inclined to give the seller the benefit of the doubt. He has ended the auction and sent the cards to be authenticated (I assume graded), so we'll see. His reply was infinitely more polite and civil than 98% of the times I've alerted sellers to the fact that their card is a reproduction. Everyone makes mistakes and I'd assume that right now he's kicking himself....and remember he who lives in glass houses.....

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Posted By: quan

matt i've done some buying/selling with this dealer/collector, and he's 100% honest. he probably has reason to believe they're real, but i'm confident he'd stand behind his product if they're proven to be fake.

your words seem to imply he's shady and once again it seems you like to be the board police in matters you lack knowledge in...i would suggest you relax a bit.

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Posted By: Joann

Matt,

Your longer post above does contain some good points. But like almost everything you write, it contains at its core the very basic principle that sellers are somehow dishonest or shady or looking to maximize at the expense of a naive buyer.

Also, the post's core is about how a seller can use fudge words to intentionally leave a certain impression while reserving the ability to claim he didn't know or actually say it. In the "terrific irony of the day", you then do the EXACT same thing later in the thread by telling Rob D that no one made any conclusions about the seller. hahahaa. That is rich. Really.

The thread did not start out being about the seller. It started out asking about cards. And two long-time board members vouched for the seller very early in the thread. And yet once again you decide the seller has done something wrong and start banging away at it.

One of these days one of these honest sellers is going to take serious exception to something you say about him. Then he'll find out that you make a practice of recklessly, publicly and wrongly accusing sellers of dishonestly when you clearly - just based on the number of times you've gotten it wrong - don't know enough about cards and/or sellers in this hobby to make the accusations. And then watch all hell break loose.

J

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Posted By: Matt

Quan & JoAnn (how did I know you would not miss an opportunity to jump in here) I appreciate the feedback. I urge you to re-read what I wrote. I was very careful to qualify my remarks above and came to no conclusions about the seller. I stand by what I wrote.

The seller absolutely did the right thing by pulling the auctions and has indeed responded civilly to emails.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Assuming the seller retracts the listing, this still smacks of unethical ebay behavior. Assuming the facts are as we are supposing, the seller had a choice to make - sell it as 100% authentic and hope you don't get caught ...

Matt's words simply have been misinterpreted by at least three of the five most recent people -- including me -- to post on this. My apologies for a lack of comprehension.

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Posted By: Steve

Once again, as has become typical on this board, someone makes an assumption, which leads to more assumptions, which lead to conlusions



I've noticed that too.


Steve

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Posted By: Joann

"JoAnn (how did I know you would not miss an opportunity to jump in here)"

Probably because you displayed the same behavior I have objected to in the past. That would have been a good early indicator.

Here is where the divergence is, just in my opinion:

"Assuming the facts are as we are supposing, the seller had a choice to make - sell it as 100% authentic and hope you don't get caught (and hope it IS authentic) or sell it as "unknown authenticity" and take a hit financially. "

For most of the board, "assuming the facts as we are supposing" meant assuming the cards are a fantasy issue or otherwise compromised.

For you "assuming the facts as we are supposing" seems to mean both that the cards are not right and that the seller probably knows about it and is looking to maximize.

I don't know how else to explain it. It's just different.

J