T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





One of the early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?

This thread inspired lot's of brainstorming between Net54ers regarding various aspects of T206 cards. Surveys and new theory's were explored, resulting in 363 posts
which you'll find very interesting and informative.

The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.

Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.




.... . . . . . .



To date, there are 284 confirmed T206 cards with the EPDG back.....they are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.

150/350 Series................83 subjects

.

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)

Criger
Dahlen (Boston)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolin
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Griffith (portrait)
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)

Tom Jones (St Louis)
Jordan (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (throwing)
Leach (portrait)
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Magee (portrait)
Marquard (hands at side)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Mullin (throwing)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)

Owen
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Seymour (bat)
Shaw (St Louis)
Shipke
Spade
Spencer
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stovall (portrait)
L Tannehill (Washington)
Tinker (portrait)
Turner
Wagner (bat on left)
Walsh
Weimer

Wilhelm (arms at chest)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)

350-only Series................102 subjects

.

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Collins (A's)

Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper

Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (catching-NY)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore

Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen

Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
Jesse Tannehill
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson

Wright
Zimmerman

Six Super-Prints

.

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

350/460 series................56 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)



.


460-only Series................37 subjects (COMPLETE)

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummel

Lake, St. Louis (ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat


This survey is a work in progress....any new EPDG inputs from you guys are greatly appreciated.

Thanx


TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Back to the players themselves.

Of the 284 subjects from your list, all but 3 have graded examples in the SGC and PSA pop charts. They are Hunky Shaw, Jim Pastorius, and Ed Willett. For the rest of the subjects, they have a minimum of 3 graded examples. My first instinct is to say they don't exist, but I've been proven wrong in the past. I would love to see an example of these guys, so if anyone has one, lets see them!

I'd also point out the uniqueness of the Elite 11 with EPDG backs which is a fun subject. After having collected EPDGs for the last few years, I would say they are not any tougher to find than a regular EPDG, with a few exceptions. As an example, I've owned 4 different Tom Jones EPDG cards.

Knowing the difficulty finding these subjects with Piedmont 350 backs, I support a theory that the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's. Pat R, who is awesome, had a great thread about this using print defects in comparing 150/350 subjects.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030

I haven't updated my collage in a while, but I'm sitting at 223 unique EPDG's at this point. Here's my first 214.

[tedzan]

Hi Jeff

1st....the grand total of 285 confirmed EPDG subjects is correct......

Cards ..... Series

..83 ........ 150/350
102 ........ 350-only
...6 ......... Super-Prints
..57 ........ 350/460 [if Kleinow (Boston) exists with EPDG)]
..37 ........ 460-only

2nd....I left out Howell in the 460-only series list. Just a hasty typing mistake. This has been corrected.

3rd....There is a question regarding Kleinow (Boston). I have heard this combo exists; however, others say it is a No-Print. What say you ?

4th....I really like your array of EPDG cards, thanks for posting it.

Pastorius, Shaw, and Willett are on my confirmed list (and also on t206 resource's list).

My experience with collecting the Elite 11 regarding both their PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs varies all over the place.

But, Lundgren (Cubs) is definitely a "toughie" with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

Thanks again.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Hey Jeff

1....My 460-only list is correct with 37 subjects. I inadvertently omitted Howell. He is included in this list.

2....Steinfeldt (portrait) in the 350/460 series list was a typo error, which I have removed. It should have been Steinfeldt (bat). This has been corrected.

Therefore, 57 subjects are correct if you accept Kleinow (Boston) as valid. I have some doubts that this subject exists with an EPDG back.

So, I am asking you again....if you know that this front/back combo exists ? ?


TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this.

In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.

Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this.

In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.

Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.

My theory regarding the timeline when the 350/460 subjects were printed with EPDG backs coincides with the Sovereign "apple green" print run (shown here is my simulated
Sovereign sheet)....circa Spring - Summer 1910.

I base this on the following evidence......

Joe Doyle retires from Major League BB June 25, 1910

Simon Nicholls retires from Major League BB April 19, 1910

Red Kleinow traded to Boston May 26, 1910

Frank Smith traded to Boston Aug 11, 1910 [F. Smith(Chicago & Boston) is an EPDG No-Print]

I have removed Red Kleinow (Boston) from my list.

Therefore, the grand total (to date) of EPDG = 284 subjects.












TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


Continuing from Post # 181 ......

In anticipation of the impending divestiture of the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1911, American Lithographic modified their SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 cards
(initial press run) by stamping them with Factory #42 overprints. This was done since the SWEET CAP cigarettes production was being transferred to the Durham, NC plant
of Liggett & Myers.

Factory #42 Durham, NC




Anyhow, after ATC's divesture was resolved by the Federal Courts (circa..Summer 1911), and the "smoke had finally cleared", ATC had retained SWEET CAPORAL production.
Therefore, all this "overprinting" of 109 -T206 subjects was really unnecessary. Listed below are the 109 subjects that were overprinted.

Check-out the Federal Court's decree break-down (circa 1911)......

American Tobacco Company divestiture

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 % of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima....only 15 Turkish blends
and the cheap straight domestic brands.


P. Lorillard received 15 % of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands


American Tobacco retained 37 % of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall....its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street
in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.


R. J. Reynolds received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 % of the plug trade.



SWEET CAP 350-460, Factory #42 overprint......109 subjects

350/460 series................57 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)

Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

460-only Series................46 subjects

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell

Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


. .


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Double post.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


We have been on vacation visiting our Daughter and Grandson in Maine. I just noticed Turner's thread.... Georgia Find: 878 T205's and T206's.
Thanks, Turner for posting this thread and all those great images.

This is a significant find. It's the 4th discovery in the surrounding area of Atlanta of an original collection of T206's that include the rare T206's that we refer to as the Elite 11 cards.

Approx. 9 years ago, I acquired a lot of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. All these cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly
PIEDMONT cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 8 of the Elite 11 cards in this group.

Very recently, another original collection of T206's (all PIEDMONT's) was discovered in the Atlanta area. And, this collection included 7 of the Elite 11 cards.

I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006, refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180 for more info.

It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs (containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards) to Georgia. I say this because some Joe Doyle Nat'l cards have been
found in T206 collections originating in Georgia. The best example being Senator Richard Russell's original T206 collection. It is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. This set
also includes the Joe Doyle Nat'l card. Russell lived in Winder, Georgia (not far from Atlanta), and he collected Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910.


Elite 11....plus Lundgren





Although Lundgren (Cubs) was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL....this card is very similar to the ELITE 11
with respect to the initial 350 press runs of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. Therefore, I have included Lundgren in with this group.

Note The Schulte card has not yet been found with an EPDG back.


Hey guys,
I'm open to hearing of any other regions in the country where these Elite 11 cards have been discovered. Please chime in with your information.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]


* * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * *


OK, let's take a break for now from all this "heavy" stuff regarding T206's, and have a Show-n-Tell of your favorite T206 cards in your collection.
Card's condition is immaterial, what can be more interesting is the story behind why certain T206's are your favorites.

I'll start this show with 3 of my sentimental favorites......


Here is my first T206....I acquired this Chase at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania (Spring 1981).






The red Cobb with a SOVEREIGN 460 back is a very tough card to find. It was the last card in completing my SOVEREIGN-Only set of 408 cards.

.




Mr. Plank was the last card I needed to complete my SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30-Only set. It's now "complete" with 468 cards (no Wagner).

.



Hey guys,
Looking forward to seeing your favorite T206's.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, when I was a kid my first set was the 1965 Topps. My favorite card was Yastrzemski. He was posed as if he was about to catch a fly ball. As an eight year old I didn't realize that it was just a pose. I really thought that the photographer caught him in the act of making a catch.

I noticed that in the T206 set, Mitchell is in a very similar pose, so that is one of my favorites:

scan0048.jpg

The Merkle throwing is another favorite, particularly this Brown Lenox, which seems to be a 1 of 1:

scan0029.jpg

scan0030.jpg

The Cobb bat off shoulder is one of the prettiest cards in the set IMO, and of course its a Cobb:

scan0001.jpg

And I'll finish my post with a Plank to keep yours company:

scan0038.jpg

[tedzan]

Hey Sean

OK guy, I'll match your Cobb and Merkle......and, I'll raise the ante with my Hal Chase / red HINDU







.




.




Come on guys, let's see your favorite T206's.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Ted, I thought that you sold that Merkle/ Uzit at the 2015 National.

Here's my favorite portrait:

scan0001.jpg

[Rich Falvo]

I only have blurry scans, but these two might be my favorites.

Moran Cycle Front.jpgMoran Cycle Back.jpg

Lavender EPDG Front.jpgLavender EPDG Back.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Ted, I thought that you sold that Merkle/ Uzit at the 2015 National.

Here's my favorite portrait:

Attachment 286056

Sean..... The Merkle / UZIT was for display (and discussion)....not for sale.


TEDZ
.

[rats60]

I will add my Plank plus two others.

[hshrimps]

Originally Posted by rats60

I will add my Plank plus two others.

Nice Plank. But how come it is only a SGC-40 for such a nice Plank? Paper loss on the back?

[Sean]

Now I want to match Rats' cards:

scan0001.jpg

scan0003.jpg

[rats60]

Originally Posted by hshrimps

Nice Plank. But how come it is only a SGC-40 for such a nice Plank? Paper loss on the back?

The print marks on the face.

[greco827]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *




The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.

Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.


TED Z
.

Ted,

I did a bit of research, and am fairly confident that Factory 17 was in Richmond, VA, on "Tobacco Row". In an article written Sep 12, 1908, in Tobacco Leaf, Volume 45, Page 32, it mentions this:

"The Federal Cigar Co's plant, which recently closed down several weeks ago, has resumed work. This plant was formerly known as the Whitlock branch of the American Cigar Co. Here Beaux Arts, a little cigar, are made as well as El Principe cigarettes and other brands."

El Principe De Gales is also mentioned by name in full, a bit earlier in the article.

I have not yet found anything which specifically says that the P. Whitlock Branch of ATC is Factory 17, just that the branch was in Richmond and produced EDPG.

[greco827]

Ted,

Update on the previous .... I did find, on cigarhistory.com, mentions of The P. Whitlock Branch and it being Factory 17. It mentions that OVC, another tobacco brand, all carried a Fact. 17, 2nd Dist. VA" designation until 1920, when it then changed to read "Fact. 17, VA."

[tedzan]

Jason

I really appreciate your information regarding Factory #17.

Thanks much,


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

OK, let's try this T206 " Run Fun " one more once.

Here is an incomplete run of my favorite Cobb. I have no expectations of completing this run. But, I just enjoy the thrill of the hunt.
















.






TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards


And here's my Russ Ford back run from the Exclusive 12 group with a bit of trivia included......

Ford holds a pitching record that I'm quite certain has never been equalled. Most games WON in his rookie season (26-6) in 1910.
Furthermore, a total of 48 games won in his first two seasons.

OK, I need UZIT and EPDG to complete this 13-card run.


.





Factory #42





Factory #42



Factory #30




TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

After finally locating the SC 360,25, I am now one back (AB 460) from completing a T206 back run of the Tinker Bat Off pose (I threw in a few T213s for good measure). It all started when i picked the Uzit up at auction and went from there. Thanks to Adam (who got me the Pied Fact 42 (real rare!!), Zach (who helped me with both this and my Evers Yellow Sky run), Mac (who sold me the SC 350, 25 -- surprisingly very tough to find), and Michael, Derek, Sean and many other Net54 members who have kept eyes out for me.

Now, who has my T206 Tinker Bat off AB 460???!!!!