1952 Topps #131-190 Gray Backs

[Doug]

Can someone fill me in on what the entire story is with the 1952 Topps #131-180 white/gray back cards? From what I have understood the gray backs were only sold in Canada. Does anyone know the reason for this variation?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Doug,

FWIW, that's what I've always understood as well.

Can anybody confirm?

Also, is there any price difference between the gray backs and white backs?

David

[Doug]

From what I understand the gray backs bring a strong premium due to their scarcity. Hopefully Ted Z or someone can fill us in on what the origins of these gray backed cards are.

[Doug]

It also seems like there was a similar situation with the 1954 Topps first series being issued with gray backs as well. Any connection?

[tedzan]

Here's my Billy Martin and Cass Michaels cards with the regular WHITE backs and the rare GRAY backs....note the color shading in the fronts.

I have 46 of the possible 60 cards in this series with this rare back. And, I've been searching for the remaining 14 cards for almost 20 years.
I know of only two veteran collectors in the hobby that have a complete run of all 60 cards.

I am still searching for the explanation of these cards. Over the years, various stories have been offered. But, no concrete evidence to back
them up.

Anyone here have an explanation for these Gray Backs ? One thing we can say about them....they were Short-Short-Printed.











TED Z

[toppcat]

I would hazard a guess they were subcontracted (much like 2nd series 10 years later that resulted in green prints) due to demand for the second series; likely to a printer in upstate NY. Some probably made it across to Canada due to the location of the plant, hence the belief they were sold there.

Where have pockets of these been found? I would posit the possibility of distribution around the Great Lakes but all this is merely educated guesswork, although I think they could resemble how the high numbers were sold as well, outside of Philly, Boston and New York. I can't see these being distributed beyond a small region.

I believe Topps used their old leaf tobacco distribution network for decades after the Shorin's stopped selling that product, so whatever those routes were some of their card distribution mirrors.

[tedzan]

I'll add that the one story regarding these rare cards that I've heard and I suspect is true is..that they were NOT sold with Bubble Gum products.
As there is no gloss on the fronts like the regular issue 1952 Topps cards.

Also, that Topps printed this series of 60 cards subsequent to the following series (#191 - #250). That would account for their backs have been
printed on Gray cardboard.



TED Z

[Doug]

I had read a theory that they were packaged in boxes of tissues. Is there any validity to that idea?

[tedzan]

A long-time hobby veteran told me that these cards were packaged with Doeskin tissues in the 1952-1953 timeframe.

Also, I heard that they were found in packs with Topps' Rails & Sails non-sports cards.


TED Z

[Doug]

Originally Posted by tedzan

A long-time hobby veteran told me that these cards were packaged with Doeskin tissues in the 1952-1953 timeframe.

Also, I heard that they were found in packs with Topps' Rails & Sails non-sports cards.


TED Z

The theory I had read said that they were found in boxes of Doeskin tissues as well as Topps Wings cards. So far I haven't been able to find any confirmation from anybody that actually pulled one of these cards from a tissue box.

[Doug]

Here's a SGC 80 Bob Rush labeled "1952 Topps Canadian" for what it's worth: http://cgi.ebay.com/1952-TOPPS-CANAD...-/380271655875 On the back it almost seems to have a glue stain, possibly from being glued to the bottom of a tissue box?

[tedzan]

I have have not seen any evidence to confirm that these cards are a "Canadian" issue. Sure, there are rumors to this effect, but where is
the proof ?

Just because Grading Co. label these cards as such, does not prove it is so.

For example, they label the 1949 LEAF BB cards as...."1948 Leaf". But, this has been proven to be an incorrect issue date for these cards.


TED Z

[Doug]

I wasn't necessarily suggesting they are Canadian because SGC calls them that, I was wondering if they did have some knowledge of them actually being Canadian as the reason for labeling them as such. It would make more sense (in my opinion) just to label them as gray backs instead of Canadian unless they actually knew for sure.

[tedzan]

I agree with you....they should label them "Grayback variation".

Perhaps, I will call SGC tomorrow to see if they have any valid information regarding these 1952 Topps cards.

And, thanks for reviving this topic. Maybe this time we will find out something about these mysterious cards.


Regards,

TED Z

[toppcat]

Interesting-I have never heard that Doeskin theory before with the 52 BB. Might be worth a post on the old Net54 Non Sport board. Todd Riley might know and I believe I have seen scans of an unopened Doeskin pack over there.

Ted-is that right there are never gum stains on these?

[Doug]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I agree with you....they should label them "Grayback variation".

Perhaps, I will call SGC tomorrow to see if they have any valid information regarding these 1952 Topps cards.

And, thanks for reviving this topic. Maybe this time we will find out something about these mysterious cards.


Regards,

TED Z

Hopefully they will be able to give some insight. It would be interesting to actually find the source of these cards.

[tedzan]

In my hunt to complete this series, I have seen quite a few of these Graybacks in the past 25 years, and no gum stains.

On the other hand, I have had several regular 1952 Topps cards with gum stains or impressions on their fronts.

The most notable one was a Bobby Thomson with a full impression of a Topps slab of gum across the front of this card.


TED Z

[toppcat]

I just blogged on the Non-Sport Doeskin cards and after doing so I am skeptical the 52 Baseball cards were issued with Doeskin. I'm about to spoil my next blog post but so be it as I think there are three reason the 52 grays are not Doeskins.

1) It seems Doeskin was rebranding or relaunching around 1955 (the doe logo on the packs was trademarked Feb. '55) and I don't think they ran a set promotion in 1952 even though the Wings cards are from the 52/53 era. For the reason in #2 below I don't think they would have been issued in the smaller tissue packs. Wings and Rails & Sails are extant (a wink to JVB!) in unopened tissue packs with the doe logo trademarked in 1955, so the dating is solidly early 1955 or after.

2) The Doeskin Wings and Rails & Sails cards were elongated to make a perfect fit inside a purse sized tissue pack. The 52 grays are regular sized cards.

3) Doeskin cards are just that. They have "Doeskin" on the reverse where "T.C.G." appeared on the originals. The '52 grays have the "T.C.G." indicia.

Could they have been distributed in a different Doeskin (or other brand) product? Yes but I think they could have been the result of high demand necessitating an additional printer pump out an experimental run for vending-type machine or something similar. First series 52's went through at least three printings and flew off the shelves. Demand must have been insane in some areas so finding an alternate source of printing may have been a natural reaction by Topps.

Here is my link: http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/20...e-ah-choo.html

[usmcloady]

Hello everyone. First time poster, long time reader. My name is Sean and I am a Collector of several different items (Vintage Cards, Modern Cards, Toy Collectables). I have read this thread several times as I have been trying to find information on the 1952 Grey Backs and their possible connection to Topps Rails and Sails. I know collectors recall finding 52' Grey backs in Rails and Sails packs, but the majority of the Rails and Sails packs I have seen are from 1955. I have, however, also seen 1953 Topps Rails and Sails packs (OPC or Printed in Canada??). Is it possible that the Rails and Sails packs were sold in 1953 and 1955 (I have never seen a 1954 Rails and Sails pack)? 1953 being very close to the 1952 Topps run thus providing a possible method for distribution of 1952 Greys in 1953 Rails and Sails packs? This is just something I have been mulling over in my head recently and thought I post it here for the knowledgeable collectors here on the board. In my head, this seems very possible, a 1953 Topps Rails and Sails pack containing some extra cards from a previous print run to "Fatten" the packs up. Has anyone ever opened/or know of someone opening a 1955 or 1953 Rails and Sails pack in the past, say, 10 years?

[Zach Wheat]

I thought this rang a bell.....after searching through some articles I had saved, I realized Bob Lemke wrote on this issue:

http://boblemke.blogspot.com/2011/05...-canadian.html

He also gives some detail about the glossy mid-series gray backs referenced in another post.


Z Wheat

[Lgarza99]

I love reading all the research and possible reasons for this 52 Topps variations. I am just a newbie on this issue so I have no insight other then this.

I work in a print industry and I have been made aware of the following:
1. Paper suppliers raw stock variations.
2. Pressman pulling the incorrect stock to keep his press running, usually in a small pocket, before catching the mistake. Thus small quantity of defect work.
3. Paper trials performed during live runs, and trials are usually flagged but may have not been all removed. Trials performed to test run ability of a new stock to reduce production cost.
4. As far as distribution? A producing plant may have earmarked them for other market release in other products as they did not meet quality level for intended 1952 Topps baseball release. As in the lack of a gloss surface? The gloss may have been applied on a seperate pass? If so, Topps may have not wanted to add cost to this production anomaly.

Just food for thought on a few production floor typical scenarios that may have occurred.

Thanks,
Luis

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by usmcloady

Hello everyone. First time poster, long time reader. My name is Sean and I am a Collector of several different items (Vintage Cards, Modern Cards, Toy Collectables). I have read this thread several times as I have been trying to find information on the 1952 Grey Backs and their possible connection to Topps Rails and Sails. I know collectors recall finding 52' Grey backs in Rails and Sails packs, but the majority of the Rails and Sails packs I have seen are from 1955. I have, however, also seen 1953 Topps Rails and Sails packs (OPC or Printed in Canada??). Is it possible that the Rails and Sails packs were sold in 1953 and 1955 (I have never seen a 1954 Rails and Sails pack)? 1953 being very close to the 1952 Topps run thus providing a possible method for distribution of 1952 Greys in 1953 Rails and Sails packs? This is just something I have been mulling over in my head recently and thought I post it here for the knowledgeable collectors here on the board. In my head, this seems very possible, a 1953 Topps Rails and Sails pack containing some extra cards from a previous print run to "Fatten" the packs up. Has anyone ever opened/or know of someone opening a 1955 or 1953 Rails and Sails pack in the past, say, 10 years?

Is there dating on the 53 R&S packs?

FWIW Lord Baltimore Press printed the 1950's Topps Giant Size cards.

[usmcloady]

I have a few unopened Rails and Sails packs. They are graded by GAI. The "1955" Topps packs do not have a date on the pack itself, just on the label created by GAI stating they are 1955. The packs say printed in the USA and made by Topps. The "1953" packs also do not have a date on the back, but on the GAI Label say "1953" Topps. The back of the "1953" pack says London, Ontario O-Pee-Chee, Printed in Canada. The wrappers from both "1953" and "1955" have slight color variations and slightly different Font where it says "Rails and Sails" on the pack. I have never heard of O-Pee-Chee Rails and Sails cards. All the Rails and Sails singles I have seen always say T.G.C. (Topps Gum Company?) on the back. I have never seen an O-Pee-Chee Rails and Sails card. I will try to post a few scans in the next week (work is very busy at the moment) of my "1953" Rails and Sails pack. Does anyone else have any input on O-Pee-Chee Rails and Sails? Another question I am pondering..if 1953 was O-Pee-Chee Rails and Sails and 1955 was Topps Rails and Sails, is there a 1954 version?

[usmcloady]

Correction..T.C.G. is what I have always seen on the backs on Rails and Sails cards. But still..I have never seen "OPC" or anything like that. I'm tempted to open my "1953" OPC pack to see...but I am not brave enough at this point in time.

[1963Topps Set]

Originally Posted by usmcloady

Correction..T.C.G. is what I have always seen on the backs on Rails and Sails cards. But still..I have never seen "OPC" or anything like that. I'm tempted to open my "1953" OPC pack to see...but I am not brave enough at this point in time.

I completely understand your reluctance!

[usmcloady]

Zach I hope you don't mind..I copied and pasted a posted from a previous thread of why it makes sense to me in my mind that 1953 Rails and Sails could be one of the ways the Grey/Gray backs were distributed. Here is the post I found from a previous thread from Ted...

"Zach

None the guys who shared their experience collecting 52T cards in 1952 were from Canada. I have heard of rumors that the 52T mid-series gray-backs
originated from Canada. I have not seen any evidence of this.

I have also heard that 54T - 1st series (#1-50) cards that have gray-backs originated from Canada. I think this fact has been supported by at least 2
Canadian finds of 54T cards. I have a 54T Eddie Lopat gray-back as a type card.

Finally, one of the guys, who recalls getting 52T gray-backs as a kid, remembers buying Rails & Sails packs that included one (or two) 52T gray-backs.
Now, the Rails & Sails cards were issued in 1955, and that suggests, if this was so, it may have been an anomaly.


TED Z"

While most Rails and Sails packs I see are said to be 1955 Topps Rails and Sails..I do in fact have a 1953 Rails and Sails pack that says it was made in London, Ontario via O-Pee-Chee and Printed in Canada. I believe if the above fella that said he remembers pulling 52 Gray backs from Rails and Sails in 52/53..that maybe he had a 1953 Rails and Sails pack that he pulled them from. This could also support the above statement/theory that the 52' Grey Backs originated from Canada. Obviously this is all speculation on my part, but it is fun playing detective and trying to solve this mystery.

[usmcloady]

I have tried to upload a picture of my 1953 Rails and Sails pack several times recently, but for somereason it will not download from my iphone photos. I have the size at a medium size. At any rate, Im still trying. In the mean time..does any have any new/additional information or ideas on these "Grays"?

[usmcloady]

Bringing this thread back from the dead..since this was last talked about almost a year ago has anyone dug up any additional information on the mysterious 52' Topps Grey backs?

[ALR-bishop]

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=38263

[Billwinkle]

I am in Canada and my brother is as well, we never had a car growing up so all these cards are bought in Canada. If you look at the scan you will note that these are higher number "grey backs". To be honest most of the cards he has seem to have the grey back with very few being the lighter back cards. The binder sitting in front of me right now has over 90% of the grey back versions from #2 up to #300. How is that possible There are close to 250 different cards in this binder yet only 5 have the creme colour back and one is a black back. Please pass on an explanation to this? Read next post as well.

[Billwinkle]

A little more history on these cards. My Brother is in his mid 70's and he bought these as a kid. We live about 2 hours from the now closed o-pee-chee factory and we have a long since dead cousin that lived in London. Don't know where he worked but it could have been OPC. Even the Mantle appears to be a grey back. Definitely a different colour than the creme coloured cards. Check em out.

[ALR-bishop]

Bill-- these appear to be normal backs for these cards. In some of the 50s sets Topps alternated the card stock in different series. The 54, 55, 59 and 60 sets also have both grey and white cards within the same series. In other cases all the cards in a series may have the same stock but differ from one series to another. In split series, one color is usually more common, but only in the 52 and 54 sets are the grey back alternatives quite rare. In the 54 set it is the first series and in 52 it is the series of cards highlighted in the title of this thread

[SMPEP]

The 1954s were issued in Canada. It is VERY doubtful that the 1952s were. Since I've been collecting these, every known 1952 grey back has been found stateside - with the exception of ONE - which was found in England of all places. The 1952s just got this moniker because of the similarity with the 1954s.


Cheers,
Patrick

[ALR-bishop]

Bob Lemke has a great discussion of this issue of origin on his blog, including the two different types of gray backs in this series ( white border/glossy versus gray borders). At one time he was debating whether to remove the Canadian designation from the Standard Catalog, but he retired instead

http://boblemke.blogspot.com/2011/05...-canadian.html

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Billwinkle

I am in Canada and my brother is as well, we never had a car growing up so all these cards are bought in Canada. If you look at the scan you will note that these are higher number "grey backs". To be honest most of the cards he has seem to have the grey back with very few being the lighter back cards. The binder sitting in front of me right now has over 90% of the grey back versions from #2 up to #300. How is that possible There are close to 250 different cards in this binder yet only 5 have the creme colour back and one is a black back. Please pass on an explanation to this? Read next post as well.

Bill,

How many of the mid-series grey backs does your brother have in the binder ie cards 131-190?

Z

[Brianruns10]

My impression was that the discovery of a 146 House Gray Back Yellow Tiger error pretty much proved that the grays and whites were made at the same time and place, and bolstered the theory that the gray backs simply exist because there was leftover gray card stock that they used up along with the new white stock.

[ALR-bishop]

House aside, the Lemke blog, including his interviews with several long term 52 collectors, also seems to debunk the Canadian theory. But it is not just the card stock that differs. The gray fronts seem significantly different than the cream fronts, and as indicated in the blog, there seem to be two different front versions of the grays. The might at least indicate two different printers or sources.

On the House yellow tiger, it seems to exist in cream and gray. Does someone if that is also true of the version which is yellow but has a red tongue ? And can the yellow or yellow/red version be found with both different front versions of the gray backs ?

[Brianruns10]

And then on top of all that, there is the mystery of just why the Pete Reiser card is so much more scarce than the rest?

And as an aside, that nearly complete set of gray backs for sale on REA (59 out of 60, missing only the Reiser) is up to $12,000 with four days left! I wonder how much it'd be up to if it DID have the Reiser?

[flkersn]

The cream-back House "yellow logo" exists in several levels of purity--from red tongue to pink to less that pink to gone. The two or three gray-back yellow logo Houses I have seen seem to be devoid of red. I assume in the cream-back case, the printer was gradually running out of red ink during the printing process. If the latter is true, then the gray stock was used during the end of the run when the red was gone. It seems like it had to be one printer. How likely is it that two machines ran out of red ink? IF all that is true, it would suggest that the cream stock was used before the gray stock.

Regarding the Reiser, I have not heard any good reason about the shortage. It is certainly possible, but not probable, that this card had a tougher life than others (beat to crap, lost, pasted to scrapbooks, collected by relatives, etc). I think it more likely that there are a bunch out there in raw condition, just waiting for the right time. That is what happened with Maxwell, Rogovin, Post, etc. They are still rare, but several raw ones have appeared in the last year. So, bottom line, I think the Reiser is an artificial shortage that may or may not resolve itself.

BTW, in case anyone has a spare Reiser, I have a PSA 4 gray/yellow House....

Bill

[Laxcat]

I think Bill is right. I believe, from my conversation with my father and a few of his old dealer buddies, that there are quite a few raw ones left out there. I made a find of 14 in the old store stock from the Austin store, mixed in with the regular 52's and still have the San Antonio store stock and "collection" to look through.

[toppcat]

Does anyone know the position of the Reiser on the sheet? Was it a corner card?

[flkersn]

According to Patrick.

This is what I get when I post without checking my notes! It should be DPs versus SPs. Here is the layout:

3rd series:
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170
171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180

181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170

Sorry for the confusion.
Patrick

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by flkersn

According to Patrick.

This is what I get when I post without checking my notes! It should be DPs versus SPs. Here is the layout:

3rd series:
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170
171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180

181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170

Sorry for the confusion.
Patrick

Flkersn,

Good pick up. I forgot that post. I could be wrong, but I think the layout of the sheet as viewed from the back, if accurate, is rotated 90 degrees. Here is the back of a 1952 Topps sheet in the 5th Series which indicates the cards in that series were printed numerically top to bottom. That appears to be consistent with other sheets. Reiser #189 would be double printed in the middle of the sheet and the 2nd row from the bottom. Unfortunately I don't know of any 3rd series sheets to confirm this....so it is just speculation as to whether Patrick's notes above are correct.

Z

[SMPEP]

Just to clarify my post that Bill re-posted ... I break with some folks who identify the sheet layout by using the back of the sheet for numbering the layout.

I look at the card picture on front ... and then put the number of the card in that location. That makes more sense to me, and I believe that this was the way the original Topps printer(s) thought about the number on the sheets as well.

As for the Reiser scarcity, again I totally agree that it's an artificial one. The next person to sell a Reiser grey back will make a mint. The next guy after that ... a bit less. The third guy ... definitely less. They are definitely out there waiting to be found (unless you believe his card was thrown away more often than other cards in the set - and all the evidence points to Star cards being more plentiful than semi-star, and semi-stars more plentiful than commons - at least if you go by population reports and the numbers of cards for sale on Ebay). And it makes sense that stars would be kept more often when kids damaged-threw out their collections. By this logic, Reiser was one of the more popular players in the series.

And for the record ... when I get my Reiser ... I will release my research ... and I will be able to further substantiate the link between the "Canadians" and the regular Topps cards. There is more proof beyond just the House/yellow tongue with a grey back to link the sets.

And I will also offer, I agree with the post above about there being 3 grey back House's with yellow Tigers (and there are 3,not 2) and none with the partial red ... and with the reason given for that occurring. It would surprise me if a partial yellow ever surfaced. Not shock me. But I think it is unlikely.

Then again, there are two 1952 Topps cards that I "know" exist ... and I've searched for 10+ years to find them ... and have not been able to find. So, it is possible that there are 3 partial yellow Houses out there too.

Cheers,
Patrick

[ALR-bishop]

Patrick--- It could be that all the Reisers and the other two card you seek have all been stashed in Christmas Rack packs.

[flkersn]

$35.000! And now somebody else is looking for Reiser.

[SMPEP]

Al - Don't think I haven't thought about the Xmas rack packs! I have watched every 1952 Topps rack pack auction though - and never seen a single grey back (front or back). Not saying they couldn't be out there just have never seen any.

Honestly, I'd bet there are another 6-8 Reisers out there - just sitting in the child collections of people who aren't involved in the hobby. Some of those will get passed down to kids who will hold onto the cards for sentimental reasons. Some will return to circulation. The next Reiser to come to market ... whoever wins will significantly over pay. Heck, I couldn't believe what the person who bought (and just sold) that wrong labeled Reiser grey back paid. When all is said and done ... I don't even bet that Reiser will be the hardest grey back to find.

But Bill you're right ... at $600 per card (does the $35k include juice?) ... there is no resale value to be had for a dealer. That means there is a new collector. Bet he wishes he had won the PSA 8 Reiser that sold for $6,000.

Cheers,
Patrick

[ALR-bishop]

The $ 35,000 did not include the 20 % buyers premium