Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[oldjudge]

After this episode of hobby fraud it seems like the only signatures safe to collect are ones that you have personally gotten from the signer. I would bet that these forged signatures are not confined to lesser players. When the prize is bigger the forgers will be better. My guess is that there are plenty of Ruth and Gehrig signed cards out there that are forgeries, but have gotten certs. Who makes more-the forger or the authenticator? That will tell you who will do a better job.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who makes more-the forger or the authenticator? That will tell you who will do a better job.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[gregr2]

I have some autographs. I have some Mantles and Williams and others that I had reviewed and approved by the board. I don’t have the funds to chase the high dollar signed T206 cards and I feel for the folks that have those and are now suffering from this scandal. It hurts my heart when I think about these assholes making money selling forgeries to good people. Don’t think there is a clean way out of this, but it is nice see some auction houses and authenticators doing the right thing.


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[jad22]

The Doyle was originally sold in the November 2013 Heritage Auction. Others were sold during that auction. Rucker, Wheat, etc.

https://sports.ha.com/c/search-resul...-Search-071515

[Marslife]

Clean Sweep has offered a full refund on the Marquard including my SGC grading/auth fees.

Thank You Steve!

Cliff
(the start of this whole mess)

[RedsFan1941]

that's great to hear cliff.

anyone on hunt?

[theshleps]

Hunts wants me to return my forged T206 Flick to have as evidence with the FBI. They have said nothing about issuing a refund yet but I assume it will be forthcoming. Kevin and Bill at PSA have been incredibly helpful since I have had more signed prewar cards evaluated by them then possibly anyone except maybe Paul. Most of mine are 10+ years in my safe and gotten from long term collectors. I know that doesnt guarantee anything. Most are Marquards, Wheat, or Crawford. No super valuable ones They questioned one or two and offered to take the rest back for extensive re-evaluation if necessary. This is just me but I never felt very comfotable with SGC. When they were starting I submitted 3 Callahans which I know were fine to them and they said they couldn't tell one way or the other and just returned them. Later Rich, Bill and kevin approved them. They were purchased from Ron Gordon many years ago who worked for PSA in the beginning along with Stinson who is probably enjoying not being in this mess from his home in Cuba (he moved there due to his Cuban wife and cost of living, not to escape this mess

[Bigdaddy]

As others have mentioned, it remains to be seen what effect this will have on the hobby - and particularly the prices of pre-war signed cards.

Looking at things from an economics standpoint, we have a market with a small, fixed supply of signed cards. With some of those cards now turning out to be forged, there is a real and significant impact on the supply. As opposed to other players and mediums where the supply is almost limitless (think Bob Feller autographs). So one would think that with supply going down, that prices for authentic autographed cards would rise.

On the other hand, the demand will probably take a hit as some previous buyers will become disillusioned and exit the market. How much, we don't know, but I certainly wouldn't see the demand increasing due to this mess.

So with supply and demand both going down, where does that leave the market? I think it's really up in the air at this time and will depend mostly on what happens to the demand, which is up to us as collectors. And by that I mean a small number of folks - I'd put the over/under at 100 as to the number of folks collecting signed T206s, but I may be way off. Maybe 3 to 5 times that for pre-war cards in general (Goudeys, etc.)

Thoughts?

[oldjudge]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think demand will suffer a lot more than supply. I don't believe collectors will trust graders to get it right and I think prices will weaken/crater. I would love to be wrong since I think this will be bad for the hobby, but that is what I believe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think demand will suffer a lot more than supply. I don't believe collectors will trust graders to get it right and I think prices will weaken/crater. I would love to be wrong since I think this will be bad for the hobby, but that is what I believe.

From my own no dog in the fight perspective I disagree somewhat. I think people WANT to believe the autographs are real, so many or most will tell themselves yeah there was a problem but it's cleaned up now. Wishful thinking will always outstrip cynicism.

[tonyo]

Is the LOTG Doyle Batting one of the t206's that the sleuths on this thread have found the un-signed version of the same card?

What makes everyone think PSA is correct that it is a forgery? What if Al removes a legit card from the hobby?

[Republicaninmass]

Didnt psa authenticated a trimmed wagner, which Mastro admitted to trimming The t206 market wasn't affected and that is the top card in the set, arguably the hobby. It was swept under the rug in a matter of months. I'm betting there are multiple more trimmed cards in holders than forged autos. Is this that much worse?




This should bring even more scrutiny to signed cards, help collectors to do their own diligence, and will boost psa fees and probably prices in the long run.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Is the LOTG Doyle Batting one of the t206's that the sleuths on this thread have found the un-signed version of the same card?

What makes everyone think PSA is correct that it is a forgery? What if Al removes a legit card from the hobby?

Agreed. Given that PSA reverted the same Flick from the same original consignment that brought the Doyle, I think there’s a decent chance of that.

And no, it’s from 2013, which predates the current activities which are the subject of this thread.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Looking at things from an economics standpoint, we have a market with a small, fixed supply of signed cards.

Not anymore, we don't.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

As others have mentioned, it remains to be seen what effect this will have on the hobby - and particularly the prices of pre-war signed cards.

I would think demand would go down big time. I'm just one person, but my dream has been to one day own a signed Goudey Ruth. I figured as long as it was authenticated by JSA I could be comfortable in that it was authentic. As I approach the time where I could afford such a purchase, I am no longer comfortable doing so.

Reminds me of the one time I did by an autograph 25 years ago. It came with a cert. The index card was signed "Robert Clemente", the description in the cert said the card was signed "Best Wishes, Robert Clemente". I called the seller and they said, "no problem, I'll have our auto guy draw up a new cert for you". I returned the card.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

..."no problem, I'll have our auto guy draw up a new cert for you". I returned the card.

At least he didn’t say “no problem, I’ll have our auto guy add the ‘Best Wishes’ for you.”

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by jad22

The Doyle was originally sold in the November 2013 Heritage Auction. Others were sold during that auction. Rucker, Wheat, etc.

https://sports.ha.com/c/search-resul...-Search-071515

Looks like PSA recertified the Flick from that Heritage Auction, where Jason May bought it, and then just consigned it to REA this Fall. I agree the Doyle looks off, but given that the Flick (7x higher price) from that consignment passed the re-cert, I would theorize that the Doyle was just a poor version not worth the risk as opposed to an outright forgery.

[eliotdeutsch]

Has anyone seen this? Not a T206 though...

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F303008674347

[Peter_Spaeth]

It doesn't appear the ebay ID that was revealed rang a bell with anyone? Virtually nothing has been said about it.

[frankbmd]

LMFAO

Letters Marketing Fraudulently Authentic Opinions

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by eliotdeutsch

Has anyone seen this? Not a T206 though...

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F303008674347

LOL at the ink that was smudged approximately yesterday.

[irv]

Having read tidbits on here about Sal Bando and not knowing what some were referring to, I decided to check to see if I could find anything.

It didn't take long to find this, which I assume is the story people are alluding to in here?
https://forums.collectors.com/discus...d-news-for-jsa

In my searching it was easy to find other stories as well, which only makes me scratch my head further wondering how some of these companies are still in business today?
https://live.autographmagazine.com/f...-they-possibly

I'll abide with Leon's wishes not to post the Hauls of Shame link, but that one is real interesting as well.

[ihmeyers]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

LOL at the ink that was smudged approximately yesterday.

Looks like it was signed with one of those rare early 20th century sharpies.