Baseball cards of HOFers as managers/coaches

[jason.1969]

Feel free to regard this as a trivia question or just a crowdsourced request for help.

I would like to assemble a list of all major issue baseball cards from 1933-1980 that depict a Hall of Fame player as a coach or manager on a card. To keep it simpler, ignore any cards where the HOFer is a player-manager or player-coach (e.g., 1964 Topps). And for that matter, I'm okay ignoring Manager cards of a non-HOFer where the card also shows a coach who was an HOF player (e.g., 1974 Topps Danny Murtaugh featuring Bill Mazeroski as coach).

Some examples from memory are these, but I'm sure there are a lot more--

1933 Goudey Eddie Collins
1933 Goudey Tris Speaker
1949 Leaf Honus Wagner
1951 Bowman Bill Dickey
1952 Topps Bill Dickey
1954 Topps Billy Herman
1969-1971 Topps Ted Williams
1973-1974 Topps Yogi Berra
1973-1974 Topps Eddie Mathews

If you have others, please copy/paste the most updated list and then add yours in. Thanks!

[Exhibitman]

1969 Topps Joe Gordon, Red Schoendienst

[almostdone]

nevermind. Already listed

[Peter_Spaeth]

Goudey and Diamond Stars Hornsby.
Billy Herman is in 65 Topps and maybe other Topps issues of that timeframe.
Bob Lemon is in 1971 Topps.
Yogi is listed as coach as well as catcher in 65 Topps I believe.
Nellie Fox is listed as coach as well as 2b in 65 Topps.
Spahn is listed as coach as well as pitcher in 65 Topps.

[Rascal1010]

1951 Bowman Frank Frisch

[DBesse27]

I know Herman is in 66 Topps. Isn't Ted Williams in 72? Schoendeinst is in 72.

[nolemmings]

1954 Topps Heinie Manush

[cardsfan73]

Schoendeinst appears on Cardinals manager/coach cards in 1965-1974 Topps sets.

edit to add: He also has a manager card in the 1976 SSPC set, and I am not sure what years but he also has manager cards in some of the OPC issues in the 60s & 70s.

[sago]

Casey Stengel; many Topps cards from 1958-1965.

[Volod]

Man, the research on this would take days, I think. So, i will limit mine to just my local team, the Cleveland Indians. Only HOF players to be depicted as managers only, as far as I can tell were Lou Boudreau (1953 and 1955 Bowman)(if you count team cards - 1956, 57 and 58 Topps KC teams); Joe Gordon (1960 and 1961 Topps); Frank Robinson (1977-78 Topps teams, 1982-83 Donruss, 1982-2006 Topps various years). The two retired HOF'ers below were in the 1933 Goudey set - with the backside bios mentioning stints as managers of the Indians.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sago

Casey Stengel; many Topps cards from 1958-1965.

He wasn't a HOF player.

[Peter_Spaeth]

E121 Cobb lists him as manager.

[JoeDfan]

Not in major issues, but Joe D. was a coach in Oakland, and can be found on the Broder and Andersen cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

1964 Berra as manager. 1963 as catcher and coach.

[Peter_Spaeth]

1969 Jack in the Box Joe DiMaggio.

[Brianruns10]

Billy Herman has a card in the '52 topps set. So does Dick Williams, who though he appears as a player in the '52 set he was inducted as a manager.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Brianruns10

Billy Herman has a card in the '52 topps set. So does Dick Williams, who though he appears as a player in the '52 set he was inducted as a manager.

[begsu1013]

tricky one here w/ the designated rules, even though it kinda turns them into a conundrum w/ this example!

i think only the 64 would qualify, if he wanted the card to only be designated as a coach/manager:

only position:



catcher-coach:



manager:



catcher-coach:

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by irv

Man, I'm pretty sure both of those photos are actually Dick Williams. Has anyone noticed that before? That picture looks nothing like Billy Herman.

(The pictures didn't come over when I hit quote for some reason.)

[con40]

Here's a few of HOF players who later served as coaches or managers...

1954 Topps Earle Combs (Yankees coach)
1951, 1953, 1955 Bowman Lou Boudreau (Red Sox, Athletics manager)
1955 Rodeo Meats Lou Boudreau (Athletics manager)
1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1969 Topps Al Lopez (White Sox manager)
1985 Topps Yogi Berra (Yankees manager)
1987 Topps Yogi Berra (Astros coach)
1969 Topps Joe Gordon (Royals manager)
2002 Topps Tony Perez (Marlins manager)
1965, 1966 Topps Billy Herman (Red Sox manager)
1983, 1984, 1989, 1990, 1991, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 Topps Frank Robinson (Giants, Orioles, Expos, Nationals manager)
1971, 1972, 1978 Topps Bob Lemon (Royals, White Sox manager)
1961 Fleer Ted Williams (he did coach the Red Sox in spring training that year)

In fact, the 1960 and 1961 Fleer sets are loaded with cards of HOF players in later years as coaches and managers

[irv]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Man, I'm pretty sure both of those photos are actually Dick Williams. Has anyone noticed that before? That picture looks nothing like Billy Herman.

(The pictures didn't come over when I hit quote for some reason.)

You have a good question and I can also see some resemblance, but going by some of these pics, I think it is actually him in the card.

I have never heard anything of what you say before, so that also leads me to believe it is actually him.

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/pla...seball-photos/

[JollyElm]

I gotta be honest, I don't see anything even remotely similar to Billy Herman's face…
billyherman1.jpg

But, man, does it look exactly like Dick Williams…
billyherman2.jpg
Same ears, same smile, same head shape, same chin, same nasolabial lines (Yes, I had to look up that term. The lines going down from the edges of the nose to the outer edges of the mouth.), etc.

Add to it the fact that they were teammates and it's easy to imagine the original photograph used to create the card was labeled wrong by someone in Brooklyn.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It almost certainly isn't Herman, but I'm not seeing Williams there either.

[jason.1969]

Agree with Peter. But I wonder who it could be. This piece is more interesting than the OP.

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[jason.1969]

Here are more pics of these guys.

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[JollyElm]

The worst part of this research is putting in "Dick Williams" in the image search and watching what depravities come back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I quickly added the word "Dodgers."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe someone can figure it out from here.

[irv]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I gotta be honest, I don't see anything even remotely similar to Billy Herman's face…
Attachment 220309

But, man, does it look exactly like Dick Williams…
Attachment 220310
Same ears, same smile, same head shape, same chin, same nasolabial lines (Yes, I had to look up that term. The lines going down from the edges of the nose to the outer edges of the mouth.), etc.

Add to it the fact that they were teammates and it's easy to imagine the original photograph used to create the card was labeled wrong by someone in Brooklyn.

I can't see your pics for some reason, and I am not denying one way or another as I really don't know, but if the image on the card wasn't Billy Herman, do you not think this would have been old news by now?

I am assuming Herman seen his card from the series and if so, most likely would have said something, which, would have been documented somewhere by now?

Either way, it's a cool little mystery we have going on!

[jason.1969]

I took it to someone great with faces. She put it as less than 5% likely that the 52T and 54T Herman are the same guy (even two years aged) and less than 10% likely that the 52T Herman and 52T Williams are the same guy. A true mystery.

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[irv]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

I took it to someone great with faces. She put it as less than 5% likely that the 52T and 54T Herman are the same guy (even two years aged) and less than 10% likely that the 52T Herman and 52T Williams are the same guy. A true mystery.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Interesting!

[Volod]

To me, it is almost certainly Williams in both photos. Look at the earlobes and the corners of the mouth - those features are identical in the Williams shots, but much different in Herman's images. From what I have read about Herman, he wasn't the kind of guy who would go out of his way to look at his cards, or care what was on them. And, as common players, neither guy's mixed up card pics would likely have drawn much notice, in 1952 or even years later. So now, a sharp-eyed Net54'er points out the mistake - I don't think the reaction will be any more than a few yawns among vintage collectors.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Volod

To me, it is almost certainly Williams in both photos. Look at the earlobes and the corners of the mouth - those features are identical in the Williams shots, but much different in Herman's images. From what I have read about Herman, he wasn't the kind of guy who would go out of his way to look at his cards, or care what was on them. And, as common players, neither guy's mixed up card pics would likely have drawn much notice, in 1952 or even years later. So now, a sharp-eyed Net54'er points out the mistake - I don't think the reaction will be any more than a few yawns among vintage collectors.

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

[irv]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Well, I never said one way or the other that you were wrong, I just wasn't sure, based on what I said prior, that this likely would have been documented somewhere before?

The more I look the more confused I get if both are Williams, or if that is in fact actually Herman in the pic/card I posted?

Not sure where this is going to go, but I must say, if in fact both are Williams, this must be one of the biggest error cards ever produced.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

...that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Williams was smiling just like that after he famously hoodwinked Johnny Bench in the eighth inning of the third game of the '72 WS. With two out, Reds runners on second and third, and a full count on Bench, Williams went to the mound and ordered Rollie Fingers to give Bench a free pass, but secretly instructed Gene Tenace to dive back behind the plate as Fingers threw strike three down the middle to a shocked Bench. Managerial acumen like that is what put Williams in the Hall.

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by Volod

Williams was smiling just like that after he famously hoodwinked Johnny Bench in the eighth inning of the third game of the '72 WS. With two out, Reds runners on second and third, and a full count on Bench, Williams went to the mound and ordered Rollie Fingers to give Bench a free pass, but secretly instructed Gene Tenace to dive back behind the plate as Fingers threw strike three down the middle to a shocked Bench. Managerial acumen like that is what put Williams in the Hall.

Just watched this on You Tube. Pitch was outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw0w9rhNtCk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Volod

Williams was smiling just like that after he famously hoodwinked Johnny Bench in the eighth inning of the third game of the '72 WS. With two out, Reds runners on second and third, and a full count on Bench, Williams went to the mound and ordered Rollie Fingers to give Bench a free pass, but secretly instructed Gene Tenace to dive back behind the plate as Fingers threw strike three down the middle to a shocked Bench. Managerial acumen like that is what put Williams in the Hall.

He didn't look fooled to me on the youtube clip, just that he thought the pitch was outside. Which it was. He looks like any other batter sizing up a pitch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Forgive my inferiority but I am still not convinced. Skin color much darker on the "Herman" isn't it? Eyes look different to me.

[irv]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

forgive my inferiority :d but i am still not convinced. Skin color much darker on the "herman" isn't it? Eyes look different to me.

lol.

[Volod]

Ok, guys, you want to see some outside pitches called strikes, take a look at the umpiring in the '95 WS that benefitted Maddox and Glavine...sheesh

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Volod

Ok, guys, you want to see some outside pitches called strikes, take a look at the umpiring in the '95 WS that benefitted Maddox and Glavine...sheesh

Maddux, and Pedro, had the biggest strike zones I have ever seen.

[ALR-bishop]

You are not inferior Peter, you are just a naysayer who piles on. At least you got a laugh out of him

As far as skin color, different paints ?

[Volod]

A couple more shots of Williams, for what it's worth.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

You are not inferior Peter, you are just a naysayer who piles on. At least you got a laugh out of him

As far as skin color, different paints ?

A condescending laugh, I would guess, based on Darren's tone there.
Do you think it's Williams, man, I just don't see it, I mean it could be given how bad some of the 52T drawings are (e.g. Mantle which but for the fact that the association is burned into our minds doesn't really look much like him), but it's not like it jumps out and screams yeah it has to be him.

[David W]

Red Schoendienst went in the HOF as a player, and has manager cards from 1965 to 1974 every year I think, plus his cameo in 1990.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A condescending laugh, I would guess, based on Darren's tone there.
Do you think it's Williams, man, I just don't see it, I mean it could be given how bad some of the 52T drawings are (e.g. Mantle which but for the fact that the association is burned into our minds doesn't really look much like him), but it's not like it jumps out and screams yeah it has to be him.

Off topic but I believe this is the pic used to produce Mick's 52 TOPPS card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Irv it is but compare the face in the pic to the drawing. To me, something got lost in the translation, it's almost cartoonish, but it's subjective.

[ALR-bishop]

For me the 53 is more cartoonish ( hope Chris and other Mantleites do not blackball me), but at least whoever did the Topps 52 and 53 Mantles did not take the 51 Bowman Paul Richards approach

[JLange]

How about this one?

1934 Butterfinger Walter Johnson, Manager of the Cleveland Indians

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by JLange

How about this one?

1934 Butterfinger Walter Johnson, Manager of the Cleveland Indians

Really love that premium!

[Volod]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

For me the 53 is more cartoonish ( hope Chris and other Mantleites do not blackball me), but at least whoever did the Topps 52 and 53 Mantles did not take the 51 Bowman Paul Richards approach

"Chris and the Mantleites" would have been a great name for a rock band. Sorry.