T206 ??? RE: Wagner & Plank

[DerekMichael]

Hi guys.

I was thinking of a rather pointless topic in all honesty, however I am quite curious to hear the opinions of the community.

Assuming, just for a moment, that both the T206 Wagner & Plank were available in more common numbers (in other words, similar to what we see of all the other HOF subjects not considered to be unusually rare), how would you value them?

For example, on the Wagner, would he be able to fetch, say, roughly what a red Ty Cobb goes for, or would he be more in line with, say, Nap Lajoe and Tris Speaker?

In the case of Eddie Plank, given his credentials, could he come close to the big three of Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Christy Mathewson, or would he be more in line with players the likes of Chief Bender, Rube Waddell, Mordecai Brown, Addie Joss, Ed Walsh etc. etc. ?

If this has already been discussed, I do apologize in advance.

Thank you for your input.

Respectfully,

Derek

[deadballfreaK]

Wagner would be almost equivalent to Cobb. Plank would be in the 2nd tier of pitchers.

[VintageJay]

I think it's a great topic.

Personally, I think Wagner would be placed between Lajoie and Cobb, while Plank would likely be in the Bender, Brown, Joss grouping.

[sebie43]

I'd say the wagner would be up there with the red cobb. I believe the Plank would be the 4th most valued pitcher. Right ahead of second tier. But not quite matty, cy, wajo

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[deadballfreaK]

If you just happened to look up and see you had 499 posts and a Plank card much rarer than the T206 that you wanted to brag about again, then you just might post a pic.

[Sean]

Wagner would be valued around the Red Cobb. However, there might be even more valuable Wagner poses as well.

I see Plank somewhere in the second tier, but below Mordecai Brown IMO.

[x2drich2000]

I would look at some other sets as well for comparison of relative prices. Both are in e93 along with Cobb, Mathewson, Brown, Lajoie, and Young. Based on the same relative pricing, Wagner and Cobb are about equal. Plank generally seems to fall below Mathewson, around the same as Young, and more than Brown or Lajoie.

Dj

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by DerekMichael

Hi guys.

I was thinking of a rather pointless topic in all honesty, however I am quite curious to hear the opinions of the community.

Assuming, just for a moment, that both the T206 Wagner & Plank were available in more common numbers (in other words, similar to what we see of all the other HOF subjects not considered to be unusually rare), how would you value them?

For example, on the Wagner, would he be able to fetch, say, roughly what a red Ty Cobb goes for, or would he be more in line with, say, Nap Lajoe and Tris Speaker?

In the case of Eddie Plank, given his credentials, could he come close to the big three of Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Christy Mathewson, or would he be more in line with players the likes of Chief Bender, Rube Waddell, Mordecai Brown, Addie Joss, Ed Walsh etc. etc. ?

If this has already been discussed, I do apologize in advance.

Thank you for your input.

Respectfully,

Derek

Without looking at any comments below to try and sway my opinion I would say that Wagner most definitely would be in the Red - Green Cobb range.

Plank would probably be in the Mathewson and Johnson range.

[pherbener]

I think Wagner would rank a bit below the Cobb but more in line with WaJo and Matty. I think the reason that his popularity puts his pricing in line with Cobb in other sets is because of the "legend" of the T206 Wags.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by pherbener

I think Wagner would rank a bit below the Cobb but more in line with WaJo and Matty. I think the reason that his popularity puts his pricing in line with Cobb in other sets is because of the "legend" of the T206 Wags.

This is where I am at. Do Wagner's cards really have this much value without the T206? How many of us want to own an "other" Wagner, truth be told, because of how iconic the T206 is? I acquired my first Wagner card because of this. Had it not been for the T206, I may not have any Wagners, except for the one in my e98 set.

[rats60]

Wagner and Plank would still only have 1 card each. I would put the Plank around the value of the big 3 pitchers, maybe slightly lower. I think that Wagner would still be the most valuable hofer, slightly more than the green Cobb. Collectors would only have one Wagner pose to chase vs. 4 Cobb poses to pick from.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pherbener

I think Wagner would rank a bit below the Cobb but more in line with WaJo and Matty. I think the reason that his popularity puts his pricing in line with Cobb in other sets is because of the "legend" of the T206 Wags.

+1

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by rats60

Wagner and Plank would still only have 1 card each. I would put the Plank around the value of the big 3 pitchers, maybe slightly lower. I think that Wagner would still be the most valuable hofer, slightly more than the green Cobb. Collectors would only have one Wagner pose to chase vs. 4 Cobb poses to pick from.

Someone mentioned it already, but I think if Wagner and Plank had no issues with being included in a tobacco set, we'd most likely see 3-4 different Wagner poses (maybe two portraits and a batting and fielding) and 2-3 Planks (portrait and maybe two different pitching variations). Given their status in the game at the time, I'd equate Wagner maybe a step below Cobb and a step above Lajoie. I'd put Plank right in the group with Brown and Bender. Given that, you'd think that they would have a similar number of poses to choose from. They would also most likely then have been included in the T205 set as well. I think Wagner's cards would be a little less than Cobb but higher than anyone else in the set. I'd think Plank would be most comparable to Bender in value.

[mullinsm]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

This is where I am at. Do Wagner's cards really have this much value without the T206? How many of us want to own an "other" Wagner, truth be told, because of how iconic the T206 is? I acquired my first Wagner card because of this. Had it not been for the T206, I may not have any Wagners, except for the one in my e98 set.

I think this is spot on. The legend of the Wagner and Plank T206 cards is so great that it affects the value of their cards from other sets. They were outstanding players in their own right, which doesn't hurt, but it's hard to say either name without immediately thinking of their famous cards.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I think Plank would be in the Brown category while the Wagner would depend on the poses.

If there is only one pose then he would be equal to the Green Cobb if not higher, if multiple poses then less. Other than a hand full of teammates no player in baseball would have taken Cobb over Wagner in a draft at that time in my opinion.

Wagner was never surrounded after 1903 with a cast of players that could propel the Pirates to the very top. Their 1907-09 team was superior to the Tigers because of Wagner but the Cubs battery and lineup were just too much for them most years and the Giants cast was much deeper. That 1909 Pirate team was darned good though.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mullinsm

I think this is spot on. The legend of the Wagner and Plank T206 cards is so great that it affects the value of their cards from other sets. They were outstanding players in their own right, which doesn't hurt, but it's hard to say either name without immediately thinking of their famous cards.

Almost no doubt T206 has raised all Wags's values.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

Almost no doubt T206 has raised all Wags's values.

And vice versa.

[clydepepper]

I think the Wagner card would be in the Cobb range, slightly higher than Mathewson and Johnson. If there were no history of 'the card', Wagner would still hang in there with the rest of the initial HOF class IMHO.

Also entering into the 'formula' are the afore-mentioned fact that there is only the one T206 for Wagner and he is also considered an upper tier HOFer.

As far as Plank is concerned, his single card value would be a tad under Mathewson and Johnson, but slightly lower still if there were multiple poses/cards available.

Good discussion topic.

[Pilot172000]

Great topic! Love the discussion. My opinion is that Wagner would correlate with Cobb and no less than say Tris Speaker/Lajoie. When I think about Gettysburg Eddie, Mordecai Brown fits the profile exactly. He wouldn't quite be in the Matty/WoJo catagory but a good bit above Bender/Joss/Willis

[Bliggity]

Another interesting question is how much the Wagner would be worth if it were a card of a common player, rather than Wagner. Combined pop reports show about 500 graded examples of O'Hara and Demmitt (so maybe 300-400 if we account for crackouts and crossovers), and there are maybe 50 Wagners. So if O'Hara and Demmitt are about $3K in VG condition, where would that put a "common" Wagner? Maybe $10K? Or maybe even north of Magie, since there are more Magie errors than Wagners?

I realize that the existence of Wagner is what drives pricing for the entire set, so it's kind of an impossible hypothetical.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Another interesting question is how much the Wagner would be worth if it were a card of a common player, rather than Wagner.

An iconic vintage set with the rarest card being a common - reminds me of the 1894 Mayo set on the football side - I wonder what the AH descriptions would be like - would they try to prop the player up? (John Dunlop is often referred to as the holy grail or some such hyperbole - it usually isn't explained that he wasn't one of the star players on his college team).

Would T206 be less popular if there weren't any really rare HOF cards? I would think more people may start the set if they knew they had a shot at finishing it, but maybe I'm way off.