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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Boxing / Wrestling Cards & Memorabilia Forum

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  #1  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:32 AM
miklia miklia is offline
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Default HOF RC Boxing List - WTB and looking for suggestions

Hi everyone, and greetings from a first-time poster to this thread. I recently took an interest in collecting boxing cards, and wanted to try to figure out which cards are considered the 'true' rookies of some of the most notable boxers. Here is my work-in-progress list:

1887 A&G N28 John L. Sullivan
1887 N174 Old Judge Bob Fitzsimmons
1890 Mayo James Corbett
1890 Mayo Young Griffo
1901 Ogden's Cigarettes Jim Jeffries (Heroes of the Ring Series, General Interest Series)
1908 Ogden's Cigarettes Tommy Burns
1908 Ogden's Cigarettes Joe Gans
1908 T226 Red Sun Stanley Ketchel
1909 American Caramel Marvin Hart
1909 Ogden's Cigarettes Jack Johnson
1909 Ogden's Cigarettes Sam Langford
1910 T218 Mecca Joe Jeanette
1912 Cohen Weenen Georges Carpentier
1915 Ogden's Cigarettes Jess Willard
1915 Ogden's Jimmy Wilde
1919 Underwood and Underwood Jack Dempsey (possibly a 1920 issue)
1921 W551 Mickey Walker
1922 Sporting Champions Benny Leonard (1920 W529)
1923 W580 Gene Tunney
1926 Greiling Cigarettes B+W Max Schmeling
1927 Greiling Cigarettes Jack Sharkey
1928 W513 Tony Canzoneri
1929 Godfrey Philips Primo Carnera
1933 Sport Kings Max Baer
1935 Pattreioux Sporting Celebrities James Braddock
1935 Pattreioux Sporting Celebrities Joe Louis
1938 FC Cartledge Henry Armstrong (1930s Exhibit)
1938 FC Cartledge John Henry Lewis (1938 Churchman, 1935?? UTC)
1947 D. Cummings and Son Sugar Ray Robinson
1947 D. Cummings and Son Jersey Joe Walcott
1947 D. Cummings and Son Willie Pep
1948 Leaf Jake La Motta
1948 Leaf Marcel Cerdan
1948-9 Futbol Po-Po / Boxeadores Disc Archie Moore
1951 Topps Ringside Ezzard Charles
1951 Topps Ringside Rocky Marciano
1958 DC Thompson Floyd Patterson
1958 Heinerle Ingemar Johansson
1960 Hemmets Journal Muhammed Ali
1964 Bobbie Joe Frazier (1964 Nestle)
1966 Panini Sonny Liston
1973 Panini George Foreman
1973 Panini Roberto Duran
1976 Panini Leon Spinks
1977-79 Sportscaster Sugar Ray Leonard
1977-79 Sportscaster Larry Holmes
1982 Panini Marvin Hagler
1986 Panini Mike Tyson (Italian version)
1986 Browns Boxing Evander Holyfield
1986 Browns Boxing Pernell Whitaker

I have 1989 as the cutoff for this list, but very open to considering others that I may have missed that should be on here, up to a max of perhaps 50 cards. While I have a few of the above, I'd be interested in buying the others, and would love to jointly start an SGC or PSA set registry for something like the above if there is interest and agreement on specific issues. I would love to hear suggestions and tips from the real experts here, and look forward to learning more!

Edited 9 Feb 2013 for updates

Last edited by miklia; 02-11-2013 at 02:30 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:44 AM
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Edit and update thanks to David at Boxing Card Digest!
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  #3  
Old 03-17-2012, 08:50 AM
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Default Cards available

I have a Mayo Fitzsimmons, Mayo Corbett, and 2 Ogden Jeffries available. Please send me a message @ abaran0427@hotmail.com
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  #4  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:56 PM
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W529 also has Benny Leonard.
Jim Braddock has a 1928 Exhibit card
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  #5  
Old 03-18-2012, 09:51 PM
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Thanks to both, and added!
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  #6  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:10 PM
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Fitzsimmons has a pre-Mayo rookie card-an Old Judge. It is a rare card but it predates the Mayo
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  #7  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Fitzsimmons has a pre-Mayo rookie card-an Old Judge. It is a rare card but it predates the Mayo
I've been looking for that card for years - one day I will find it
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  #8  
Old 03-19-2012, 09:18 PM
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wow, looking at old threads it appears that the N174 is next to impossible. Do you guys think it's too tough for a simple RC list like this?
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  #9  
Old 03-20-2012, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
wow, looking at old threads it appears that the N174 is next to impossible. Do you guys think it's too tough for a simple RC list like this?
Well considering only about 2 have ever been seen, then I would think so
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  #10  
Old 03-21-2012, 10:08 AM
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The rookie card is the rookie card. Completing the set should not enter into the criteria.
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  #11  
Old 03-21-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
The rookie card is the rookie card. Completing the set should not enter into the criteria.
So true yet so painful...

Gene Tunney has a 1922 Exhibit.

Benny Leonard has a 1921 Exhibit.

I don't have a record of a Sharkey earlier than 1928.
United Tobacco is a 1941 or 1942 issue; the album for the set has a write up that describes Louis as having defended the title 19 times.
Sugar Ray Robinson is in a prewar Exhibit issue

Joe Louis is in a 1935 Brown & Bigelow issue:

Also a 1935 Detroit Free Press issue:

Homicide Hank Armstrong is in a 1930s Exhibit issue that probably predates the Cartledge issue

John Henry Lewis is in that issue too.
This is Cassius Clay's 1st American card, early 1960s Exhibit:

Ingo Johanssen is in the 1958 Heinerle issue from Germany
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Last edited by Exhibitman; 03-21-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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  #12  
Old 03-23-2012, 11:09 PM
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wow, thanks for all of the great tips (and pics)! A couple of followup questions then:

1) Do you guys consider the Exhibits 'cards'? Or for that matter, things like the Rekord cut-outs? I've heard others often say (on other boards) that 'photos' or 'paper' shouldn't be included..

2) There are several players who have multiple RCs for a given year. With an eye on subbing to the PSA/SGC registry, should they all be included, or only the 'best'?
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  #13  
Old 03-23-2012, 11:10 PM
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That Ray Robinson Exhibit is outstanding, btw.
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  #14  
Old 03-23-2012, 11:45 PM
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I would include any Exhibit that can be pinned down to one particular year for issue release (early stuff). I would not include the latters (47-66).

I would not include the Brown & Bigelow or Detroit Free press as those are supplements/premiums.

For me (and there's obviously no textbook definition), a rookie card should come from a set; meaning there should be multiple fighters/players issued under the same release. Otherwise, why not just include dated photos?

The '71 Barratt Ali shouldn't even be considered. There are dozens of Ali cards prior to that no matter how you define rookie card.

The more important question is what constitutes a "card?" Archie Moore has 1948/49 issues (and early 50s) from outside the US, although they're not rectangular.

Last edited by HasselhoffsCheeseburger; 03-23-2012 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:49 PM
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Hasselhoff, I like your definition that it should come from a 'set', and that if you can't pin down the year then the issue isn't best for this particular list.

I'm in favor of foreign issues being included. If scarcity shouldn't be an issue, then neither should be country of production.

Would love to know a bit more about the early Archie Moore cards though, o you have any more info?
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  #16  
Old 03-23-2012, 11:54 PM
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Either 1948 or 1949, from Argentina:

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  #17  
Old 03-23-2012, 11:59 PM
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The other (one is '48, one is '49; not sure which is which yet)

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  #18  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:01 AM
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Woah, those are pretty cool. I'd be up for including them. Seen any for sale recently?
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  #19  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:03 AM
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I would also concur with Adam that UTC is 100% NOT a 1935 issue, 1941 at the earliest.
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  #20  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:04 AM
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Don't know of any currently for sale. I'm shooting from the hip but my best guess is that they're either Crack or Po-Po (obviously one of them is Po-Po as it says it right on the card).
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  #21  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:06 AM
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PSA has slabbed several from the UTC series as 1935 issues. They've made a few mistakes on stuff like this in the past though, so if you guys are pretty confident that there's no 1935 issue I can edit.
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  #22  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:08 AM
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I am 110% sure that UTC wasn't produced before 1941.
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  #23  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:10 AM
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First, the album cover card of Joe Louis states that he's the World Champ (1937), Second, the inside bio write up for him says he's defended his title 19 times. After that it's just a simple boxrec check.
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  #24  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:13 AM
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Here's the card that is attached to the cover of the UTC album.

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  #25  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:14 AM
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Here's the album cover.

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  #26  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:15 AM
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I'd scan the inside bio for Louis but the cover of my album is tearing. Every time I open it it rips a little bit more. You're just going to have to take my word for it.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:18 AM
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Also, Jack Sharkey has a Greiling issue. Depending on what you believe the release date is for those that could be either 1926 or 1927. Alan knows more about that set than I so I'll let him chime in.
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  #28  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:19 AM
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Makes sense to me, and noted. That puts the John Henry Lewis RC at 1938 as well then (churchman, FCC), unless he has an issue before that?

and to confirm, this danish issue is also from 1941?

'1935' Lewis


edit because i see that your book is obviously danish as well..

Last edited by miklia; 03-24-2012 at 12:23 AM.
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  #29  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:24 AM
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That's the UTC (a South African issue, not Danish; same as the album I posted above). But don't get me started on that card.

I don't know if you're factoring in desireability but for Louis and Braddock it should almost certainly be the 1935 Patt. "Sporting Celebrities" set, not the "Sporting Events and Stars."
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  #30  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:32 AM
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What determination are you using for the fighters you're including on the list? Seems somewhat arbitrary.
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  #31  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:33 AM
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ok, sorry UTC (both), but you're out.

yes, desirability is important. i'll note both cards. too bad i just bought a 'sporting events and stars' Louis, hehe.
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  #32  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:37 AM
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I wouldn't feel bad about it. They're both '35 issues and I, for one, am very happy with my Events & Stars card. But if we're making the grand daddy list the Sporting Celebrities is definitely the one to own. Still looking for mine.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:38 AM
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I started with the Heavyweight champions list, and have been adding from there with 'key' cards and 'key' boxers with help. Any additional suggestions would be much appreciated, as I am the first to admit that my knowledge of 'golden age' boxing is weak. Want to try to cap this list at maybe 40-50 tops.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:42 AM
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Yeah, I'll keep it either way, as I like the pose and the card looks great in hand. Is there also a big price premium for the Sporting Celebrities versions as well I suppose?
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  #35  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:45 AM
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That's tough. I admire your effort as I wouldn't know where to begin either. Doing just 50 only opens the door for fighters that should/shouldn't be included. If we're going to do it I say we do all the IBHOF inductees, but I'm just someone that's making 12 posts instead of organizing my thoughts and creating one big one.

Smiley face.
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  #36  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:48 AM
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There is a significant price increase for the SC as opposed to the SE&S. I would gladly pay 3x for the Sporting Celebrities what I paid for my Sporting Events & Stars. However, I think the value is even greater than that (possibly 5x). It's also a case of "find it somewhere else." I've seen one for sale in the past few years and it's still on ebay with a very high BIN.
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  #37  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:54 AM
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hehe, yeah I had thought about starting there as well, but decided against it for a couple of reasons:

1) It's a big list. Hoping to keep this one a bit smaller (i.e. manageable) and limited to the iconic fighters.

2) There's already a PSA set reg for the IBHOF list, but I dislike it as you can include any card from an inductee to 'complete' the list. If I wanted to do that, I could buy a 1991 All World set or something and be halfway there. Also few of the guys who have already chimed in have already gone a long way on making that RC list, and I don't want to merely repeat it.

3) Top 50 lists are always fun to bicker about, as are which are the 'true' rookies. If we can come to some sort of agreement, it may bring in new collectors of boxing cards. When I considered starting this project, the hardest thing to find has been credible information on RCs. Even an imperfect (but well-sourced) list could help excite new collectors.

Thanks again for the help - this has already been a bunch of fun to put together so far.

Last edited by miklia; 03-24-2012 at 12:57 AM.
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  #38  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:59 AM
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Oh okay, I didn't realize this was just a regisrty thing.
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  #39  
Old 03-24-2012, 01:05 AM
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nah, the reg is only a part of it - I'm collecting them for myself, not merely to have an arbitrary number assigned to my collection by a grading company. Just coming from the bb/fb collecting arena where RCs are pretty well established, I found it tough to figure out which were the actual rookies of many on this list. As noted, the debate is part of the fun!
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:10 AM
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Then why not say eff the registry? Just because they've got some crappy one set up already doesn't mean we can't do the real definitive list. I say do all IBHOF inductees and make it the real thing. If the goal is to strike up some discourse and possibly learn something then that's the thing to do.

Of course, I'm not the one doing the list editing so take my input with a grain of salt.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:13 AM
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I started out just a Dempsey collector but what I found was that the more I learned about certain issues and certain fighters the more I became a fan of them. Why cap this thread's ceiling just because the TPGers have screwed up their own list?

Just my $0.02
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  #42  
Old 03-24-2012, 01:37 AM
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Valuable points. I think that there's easily room for the existence of both - with this as a subset of the larger. However, a complete IBHOF list is at least 4x the size of this one, and to be honest quite daunting (and expensive). While that list would be for the true completeist, I'm hoping to make something a bit more accessible and attuned to interested novices like me that still improves upon what currently exists.
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  #43  
Old 03-24-2012, 10:39 AM
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I don't pay attention to 'rookie' at all. I collect:
--certain fighters: Benny Leonard, Joe Louis, Jim Jeffries, Ray Miller
--various sets: well, about 40 or so of them.
--an IBHOF set but my 'rule' there is that the item has to be career-issued. So, I definitely have 1991 Kayo and AW and Ringlords in my collection but only for guys who were active while those sets were issued, like Lennox Lewis. Lots of Brown's too--assuming certain guys in those sets are eventually elected, which I think will be the case. To make it more fun for the cheap as dirt modern issues I also try to collect the cards signed whenever I can. Obviously, I will never finish an IBHOF set because I won't collect tribute cards or post-career cards, though I am sure I have some. A Les Darcy comes to mind most readily.
--type cards: I sort of do this too, especially where obscure sets are concerned. I just love having those 'never seen that before' issues.

I also don't really place as much stock in which card is first if there are several from the same year. I try for the one that looks the nicest. This is my favorite Jack Johnson card from the T and E card era, so all things being equal I'd rather own it than any other card from that year:



Now, as far as what constitutes a card, everyone has their own perspective. I include as much as possible in there as long as it is paper or cardboard and designed to be a stand-alone item [even if cut out from something else], I'm good with it. Once you start making too fine of distinctions you run into difficulty. Like I know some guys who collect only ACC-designated cards. But H815 is ACC-designated and it is a series of real photo pieces about 8 x 10 in size that were meant as displays in Adam Hats stores:



I sure as heck treat them as cards, as I do many other premiums. BTW, my next book will devote extensive space to coverage of premiums.

On exhibits, which are my collecting passion, it is very difficult to pin down specific cards to specific years. You have to know the issue very well and catalog minute printing variations. Advertising pieces can be very useful as well, but they can also demonstrate that more than one style of card was issued together:



That said, I don't even try to break down the post-1929 issues into specific sets; the exercise just bogs down. I actually prefer collecting the whole shebang as a single group understanding that certain fighters in certain formats may be very, very difficult to locate.

It is also very, very tough to pin down foreign issues. There are language barriers, lack of data and so on. This Swedish issue is the earliest Jersey Joe Walcott card I've seen, but I am dating the card based on the other fighters in the group who were active in Sweden in 1946-49.



Does that mean it is a 1940s issue of Walcott and Robinson? Not definitely, but likely given the activity of the lesser fighters.

Then there is the issue of RPPCs. What do you do with a "rookie" designation on a card when the guy has had several or even many cards issued before that time? It has always seemed rather stupid to me to call a card a rookie when there are a bunch of earlier cards out there.
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Last edited by Exhibitman; 03-24-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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  #44  
Old 03-25-2012, 01:07 PM
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Larry Holmes was also in the 1977-79 Sportscaster set.
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  #45  
Old 03-26-2012, 06:22 AM
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Never really thought of the term "Rookie" as it applies to boxing cards, but I'll throw a few out there. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Abe Attell - 1908 Red Sun & 1908 Ogdens
Stanley Ketchel - 1908 Red Sun
Joe Gans - 1908 Ogdens
Sam McVey - 1909 Ogdens
Sam Langford - 1909 Ogdens
Joe Jeanette - 1912 Cohen Weenen
Georges Carpentier - 1912 Cohen Weenen
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miklia View Post
I started with the Heavyweight champions list, and have been adding from there with 'key' cards and 'key' boxers with help. Any additional suggestions would be much appreciated, as I am the first to admit that my knowledge of 'golden age' boxing is weak. Want to try to cap this list at maybe 40-50 tops.
A while back I was thinking about starting with the HWT Champs list for my collection, but looking at the list on Wiki only pissed me off. So I decided to just pick a couple of sets to work on at a time instead.. The Championships almost seem to be arbitrary at times, and these federations just do whatever the hell they want with the belts.. Especially the WBA. This "Super Champ" mess seems ridiculous...Basically, if their champ also holds the belt in another organization, he is upgraded to "Super Champ", and then the "regular championship" is made available again.. I just don't get how you could justifiably consider the "regular champ" to be a champ, if there is someone else who never lost it, and is STILL considered a champ within the organization...Just a BETTER Champ???
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novakjr View Post
A while back I was thinking about starting with the HWT Champs list for my collection, but looking at the list on Wiki only pissed me off. So I decided to just pick a couple of sets to work on at a time instead.. The Championships almost seem to be arbitrary at times, and these federations just do whatever the hell they want with the belts.. Especially the WBA. This "Super Champ" mess seems ridiculous...Basically, if their champ also holds the belt in another organization, he is upgraded to "Super Champ", and then the "regular championship" is made available again.. I just don't get how you could justifiably consider the "regular champ" to be a champ, if there is someone else who never lost it, and is STILL considered a champ within the organization...Just a BETTER Champ???
I would just ignore the sanctioning bodies and try to follow a more lineal route, once the titles start getting really muddled with sanctioning body nonsense.

Even then it does get a bit hazy after Lennox Lewis vacates the title.

Which Klitschko brother do you collect? Might as well grab both I'd say.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:33 PM
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That's what I did, Dave. I skipped all the alphabet-sanctioned cheese champions and went straight from Lewis to the K-men. Looks like that may hold me another ten years at the rate things are going in that division...
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:00 AM
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I am new to this board and this thread is the reason I joined. I am always looking for the true rookies of star athletes and have really got in to boxing cards over the last year or so. I do have a couple of cards that I consider the True Rookies of Hall of Fame Boxers. The first is the 1920 Juncosa Chocolates (Spain) Jack Dempsey. It is much more rare than the strip cards and was factory cut. It also predates the Champions card by 2 years. The second is a 1964 Nestle Los Juegos Olimpicos (Spain) Joe Frazier card. It predates his 1967 Panini by 3 years. Also, would any of you consider postcards to be rookie cards because there are quite a few postcards that predate the rookie cards you have listed?

-Tom
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:37 PM
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Hi Tom, the Juncosa is not a 1920 release. My best guess would be 1924-1926. I believe they even reference the Carpentier fight on the back.
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