Am I wrong for considering a return on this card?

[the 'stache]

Hey guys.

I got the two cards I ordered last week today. One I am quite happy with. The second I am not, and I am considering doing something I have only done three times in the nearly four years since coming back to the hobby. And that's returning a card.

I had a small list of T206 portraits that I was considering adding before the new year. One was a T206 Fred Clarke.



I happened to see this card about 20 minutes before the auction end. When I brought the auction up, there was but one picture displayed where pictures are normally shown. It was not a scanned picture like the one I have shown above, but it was taken with a camera, and at an angle. I brought the picture up, looked it over, examining the edges and corners, and felt that everything was what I would expect from a PSA 3. Since the auction was ending soon, I started doing my research. I went to card target, and looked up the card's history in that grade, and checked PSA's price guide to see where the SMR was. I did the same on a few other cards I was interested in. I put my bids in, and ended up winning the Clarke card. The seller listed a 14 day return policy, and had the new "Top Rated Plus" icon by their seller ID. So I thought there would be no issues returning the card if need be.

When I got it in the mail today today, and looked it over under my loupe, I was pretty disappointed with what I saw. One corner was not exhibiting the corner wear I'd expect with a PSA 3, but something that should have, in my opinion, downgraded the card much further. It was not average wear, or even above average wear. A whole portion of the upper left corner was missing.

Per PSA's grading guidelines on corners:

VG 3: Very Good
A PSA VG 3 card reveals some rounding of the corners, though not extreme.

FR 1.5: Fair
A PSA Fair 1.5 card's corners will show extreme wear, possibly affecting framing of the picture.

Here are pictures of the card's top from the front and back, with guidelines showing where the card should come up to:





Now, when I saw this card prior to entering a bid, I was on my laptop. So my viewing area was understandably smaller. But to my recollection, every time a seller has posted multiple pictures of a card, the others appeared below the main image as a thumbnail you could click on. Well, as it turns out, this auction had two other images. You had to keep scrolling down more to see them. And that return guarantee? The seller offers it with the proviso that you can return it only if the item received differs greatly from the auction description. It does in my opinion, as that corner is not consistent with a 3, but a lower grade. But that's really not the seller's fault, as PSA goofed. However, I also feel that if a card has issues that might not be readily apparent, like creases, or in this case, fairly substantial damage to a corner, that should be listed in the auction description. It is not.

How do I make this right? I am not returning this because I simply changed my mind. If the corner were similar to the other three, there would be no issue. I'd be happy with this card. Do I contact the seller, advise them I want to return the card, and request a partial refund? I don't want them to lose any money. I bought this for $113.50. There were other bidders over $100. If I offered to let them keep $15, and try to resell it, or offer it to one of the under bidders for $100, that would make the seller whole, would it not?

Ebay changes the rules, and the layout so often, that I can't keep up. Ebay says a Top Rated Plus item can be returned for a refund. Can a seller have this status, and then reject your refund request?

I'd love your input, guys. Thank you!

[howard38]

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[Cardboard Junkie]

It doesn't appear to have bad overall eye appeal. I could live with that corner. The back I am guessing is complete with no paper loss. Price seems about right, but if you don't like it.....that's what matters. Dave.

[lancemountain]

I think it's a a tough call returning a graded card. Honestly if you weren't comfortable with the pictures offered maybe you should have passed on bidding? I'd never return a card that was slabbed personally and as pointed out, card still looks great.

I think you are right on by offering the seller to keep $15 for the relist and his shipping costs. That's a class move on your part if you do insist on returning it.

[Acollector]

Third party grading was started to eliminate sellers saying their cards were better than they were. The seller was not lying if he said he was selling a PSA 3, so he shouldn't have to take a return in my opinion. If he himself stated it to be better than it actually was, then I would say you should have the right to return it to him. I personally wouldn't return it to the seller. If I had a real gripe about how it looked, I would contact Joe Orlando and he would give you a full refund if it indeed is thought to be over graded by PSA.

[freakhappy]

I think most people can relate to the fact that when you have a card(s) in hand, they can certainly look different than when displayed on a computer and deciding whether or not to buy them.

I do not think you would be out of line by returning this card because it is not what you thought it was. Simply contact the seller and explain to him that you do not like the card because of the facts you stated above and see where it goes. You're a smart and easy going guy and you can talk to people with the best of them. I'm sure the seller will understand and you two can come to some agreement. You shouldn't feel bad about wanting to return this card...it happens!

Good luck and keep us posted!

[the 'stache]

Thank you for the feedback, guys. I've decided to keep it. And here's why.

First of all, when all the facts are weighed, the seller did what they were supposed to do. Their policy was clearly stated-a return is offered for 14 days if the item received is not as described. And well, it was described accurately. It arrived quickly, it was well protected, and it was exactly as it was portrayed. It was graded very good by PSA, and that's how the auction was presented. Though Ebay might have changed how images are displayed on an auction or buy it now item, it doesn't matter, because the seller provided three super high resolution images that showed the card front and back. It would have only taken me a few more seconds to scroll down and make sure that I saw everything there was to see. I didn't. They met their obligation, and then some. It's not the seller's fault that I found the card only twenty minutes before the auction ended. Nobody was holding a gun to my head, forcing me to obligate myself. And that was certainly not the only Fred Clarke T206 I'll ever see on Ebay. I could have passed, but I decided to enter a bid.

I'm a man of integrity, and ultimately, as Cory said on his thread about his encounter with Striker, my word, and my reputation, is far more important to me than a hundred bucks. I could have accepted a discounted refund, but that means the seller has to go to the trouble of relisting the card, repackaging it, and making another run to the post office. Why? Because I couldn't be bothered to read a little bit further? The onus is on me.

I'm working on building a nice T206 set right now. Once I'm done, I might upgrade a few cards. Hell, I might upgrade a few before then. Until that day comes, I'll enjoy the cards I have, my Fred Clarke being one of them. All things considered, it looks pretty damned nice for a piece of century old cardboard.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Thank you for the feedback, guys. I've decided to keep it. And here's why.

First of all, when all the facts are weighed, the seller did what they were supposed to do. Their policy was clearly stated-a return is offered for 14 days if the item received is not as described. And well, it was described accurately. It arrived quickly, it was well protected, and it was exactly as it was portrayed. It was graded very good by PSA, and that's how the auction was presented. Though Ebay might have changed how images are displayed on an auction or buy it now item, it doesn't matter, because the seller provided three super high resolution images that showed the card front and back. It would have only taken me a few more seconds to scroll down and make sure that I saw everything there was to see. I didn't. They met their obligation, and then some. It's not the seller's fault that I found the card only twenty minutes before the auction ended. Nobody was holding a gun to my head, forcing me to obligate myself. And that was certainly not the only Fred Clarke T206 I'll ever see on Ebay. I could have passed, but I decided to enter a bid.

I'm a man of integrity, and ultimately, as Cory said on his thread about his encounter with Striker, my word, and my reputation, is far more important to me than a hundred bucks. I could have accepted a discounted refund, but that means the seller has to go to the trouble of relisting the card, repackaging it, and making another run to the post office. Why? Because I couldn't be bothered to read a little bit further? The onus is on me.

I'm working on building a nice T206 set right now. Once I'm done, I might upgrade a few cards. Hell, I might upgrade a few before then. Until that day comes, I'll enjoy the cards I have, my Fred Clarke being one of them. All things considered, it looks pretty damned nice for a piece of century old cardboard.

You Sir have my respect for the way you handled this situation.

[kamikidEFFL]

I would say if its not what you expected and you explain why your not happy I don't see the guy not excepting it back.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Thank you for the feedback, guys. I've decided to keep it. And here's why.

First of all, when all the facts are weighed, the seller did what they were supposed to do. Their policy was clearly stated-a return is offered for 14 days if the item received is not as described. And well, it was described accurately. It arrived quickly, it was well protected, and it was exactly as it was portrayed. It was graded very good by PSA, and that's how the auction was presented. Though Ebay might have changed how images are displayed on an auction or buy it now item, it doesn't matter, because the seller provided three super high resolution images that showed the card front and back. It would have only taken me a few more seconds to scroll down and make sure that I saw everything there was to see. I didn't. They met their obligation, and then some. It's not the seller's fault that I found the card only twenty minutes before the auction ended. Nobody was holding a gun to my head, forcing me to obligate myself. And that was certainly not the only Fred Clarke T206 I'll ever see on Ebay. I could have passed, but I decided to enter a bid.

I'm a man of integrity, and ultimately, as Cory said on his thread about his encounter with Striker, my word, and my reputation, is far more important to me than a hundred bucks. I could have accepted a discounted refund, but that means the seller has to go to the trouble of relisting the card, repackaging it, and making another run to the post office. Why? Because I couldn't be bothered to read a little bit further? The onus is on me.

I'm working on building a nice T206 set right now. Once I'm done, I might upgrade a few cards. Hell, I might upgrade a few before then. Until that day comes, I'll enjoy the cards I have, my Fred Clarke being one of them. All things considered, it looks pretty damned nice for a piece of century old cardboard.

As primarily a seller on eBay, I really respect this post. You are an honorable man!

Jeff

[Leon]

I agree with your thought process Bill. For the record I think it's a decent looking three. That corner wear is normal aging and doesn't bother me much at all. Now, if it had a crease through his face, or something I couldn't live with, then I would do a return. I hate having returns on either end of the equation. But every now and then they are something we have to deal with. It's just part of collecting. In the long run, if you can't live with it you can still upgrade it. But if i was doing a "3" set I would be happy with it.

[bobbyw8469]

I had a guy recently return a 1961 Mickey Mantle PSA 7. I had large scans front and back of the card. In my opinion, it was one of the best looking 7's out there. He didn't think so. I agree with what someone else said - 3rd party grading was supposed to eliminate all this. Everyone wants a card that looks better than the grade. OP said he didn't like the one corner. Me, personally, I don't see it. I think the card looks good. I am glad the OP has decided to keep the card - I am sorry he don't like it. If he ever decided to sell it, I am sure he would have no problem getting his money back.

[KCRfan1]

The card looks nice to me and graded fairly at a 3. Then again, I'm not looking at my cards with loops and microscopes.

[bbcard1]

I lost interest when you said SMR.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Acollector

The seller was not lying if he said he was selling a PSA 3, so he shouldn't have to take a return in my opinion. If I had a real gripe about how it looked, I would contact Joe Orlando and he would give you a full refund if it indeed is thought to be over graded by PSA.

Sellers should guarantee satisfaction unconditionally instead of hiding behind a grading company's mistakes. They are selling a card and not some third party's opinion of it. As a practical matter, PSA would not refund anything on this card, and it would certainly not merit the attention of their president, even if he was so inclined. I agree with the majority that it's a passable three.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by edhans

Sellers should guarantee satisfaction unconditionally instead of hiding behind a grading company's mistakes. They are selling a card not some third party's opinion of it.

Ed well spoken. I agree 100%. When I sell a card to a buyer no matter if graded or raw, if they are not satisfied for any reason a full refund would be offered. It's just good business sense.

Oddly enough I've purchased cards from board members and not been happy with them once received only to be told to take it up with third party grading. To each their own........

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Ed well spoken. I agree 100%. When I sell a card to a buyer no matter if graded or raw, if they are not satisfied for any reason a full refund would be offered. It's just good business sense.

Oddly enough I've purchased cards from board members and not been happy with them once received only to be told to take it up with third party grading. To each their own........

I guess I didn't think that was really compliant with Leon's b/s/t standards, huh...

[Bestdj777]

Bill, I think it makes sense you are keeping it. And, I think you should be proud to own it. It is a very nice looking card. And, if you are anything like me, soon your eyes will be to the point where you cannot even see the corner without squinting a lot.

[bobbyw8469]

If you take returns on 3rd party graded cards, it just defeats the purpose of the grading IMHO. You are basically saying that you are better than the 3rd party grader. That is like the thing I read about PayPal telling a buyer to destroy a violin because the seller said it was real and the buyer said it was counterfeit. Who made PayPal an expert on vintage violins? And then judge, jury and executioner? I guess I am in the minority...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Ed well spoken. I agree 100%. When I sell a card to a buyer no matter if graded or raw, if they are not satisfied for any reason a full refund would be offered. It's just good business sense.

Oddly enough I've purchased cards from board members and not been happy with them once received only to be told to take it up with third party grading. To each their own........

and I have emailed PMs to a seller, when somewhat unhappy with a purchase, only to be ignored. Then the same person ignoring me then wanted a refund on a graded card I sold on ebay, where I clearly stated no returns on graded cards....go figure...

I should add, I think that is just about the only time I have ever refused a return.....I have even given a few refunds years after a purchase.

[vargha]

Originally Posted by edhans

Sellers should guarantee satisfaction unconditionally instead of hiding behind a grading company's mistakes. They are selling a card and not some third party's opionon of it. As a practical matter, PSA would not refund anything on this card, and it would certainly not merit the attention of their president, even if he was so inclined. I agree with the majority that it's a passable three.

PSA's president is an empty suit. Discussing nearly anything with him from a meaningful standpoint would be a complete waste of my time.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

You are basically saying that you are better than the 3rd party grader.

There are a good number of board members who could easily make that claim.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't see any point in keeping a card you don't like. If you don't have a good basis to return it, just sell it and move on.

[hammer]

Card looks nicely centered with good eye appeal keep it and look for another and by the time you find the one you like. Sell this one and you will probably make money with it.

[Theo_450]

I would tape to the edge of my monitor as a reminder to myself.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Leon

and I have emailed PMs to a seller, when somewhat unhappy with a purchase, only to be ignored. Then the same person ignoring me then wanted a refund on a graded card I sold on ebay, where I clearly stated no returns on graded cards....go figure...

I should add, I think that is just about the only time I have ever refused a return.....I have even given a few refunds years after a purchase.

Maybe it's a new policy or something, but I thought even if you stated "no refunds", the buyer can still return the card. I could be wrong here.

Bill, I respect your decision, but honestly returning the card isn't really a big deal. I feel like you're afraid of hurting the seller's feelings or somehow going back on your promise of buying the card. However, I have had this sort of thing happen to me and I just resold the card instead of returning it. The only thing that would hurt you during the reselling process is that I'm sure you would go out of your way to state how the back looks, the way it does and maybe it looks over graded to you. When this happens to me, I go out of my way to let everyone know about the tear on the back...which could hurt the sell. If you don't like it, return it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Maybe it's a new policy or something, but I thought even if you stated "no refunds", the buyer can still return the card. I could be wrong here.

....

There is no written policy for anything on the BST except that there shouldn't be interference by 3rd parties posting. Everyone makes their own deals and rules as they see fit. No way would there be any kind of Net54baseball "policy" concerning returns. I should mention that there are some general guidelines in our rules section, pertaining to the BST sections, but not to specific dealings. Caveat emptor, buyer beware applies.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Leon

There is no written policy for anything on the BST except that there shouldn't be interference by 3rd parties posting. Everyone makes their own deals and rules as they see fit. No way would there be any kind of Net54baseball "policy" concerning returns.

My bad, Leon...I thought you were talking about eBay!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

My bad, Leon...I thought you were talking about eBay!

Actually my bad, one was ebay and one was the BST, with the same person. Not a big deal.....

[Snowbaron]

I bought a bill hart (lr) on ebay for a great price a little bit ago. It was psa 5 and had paperloss, albeit small, on the back whereby Atlantic looked like Atlan c. I emailed the seller and they didnt notice this either on the card. I returned it thinking you buy the card not the holder. A 5 shouldnt have paperloss. I saw if a few weeks later on ebay with the damage highlighted and it want for considerably more than I paid. I still wouldnt want it.


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