Beware Carterscards2006

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I thought we were under the impression that the slab wasn't compromised?

Correct. The OP never said that the slab had been cracked. Somebody assumed that along the way and others who comment aren't reading all the posts.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Correct. The OP never said that the slab had been cracked. Somebody assumed that along the way and others who comment aren't reading all the posts.

Sorry, yeah. I just caught up on the entire thread. As long as the card is still holdered, there shouldn't be any issues returning it. But it seems no one is 100% sure that this is the case yet though.

Anyways, assuming it's still holdered, this will again come back to the "NO REFUNDS" thing. If you bought the item after seeing that in the listing, then you technically entered into a contract with the seller, knowing that there would be "NO REFUNDS".

[scmavl]

Wow, I'd hate to be in this position, on both sides. If I was the seller and had bought the card in the GAI holder, then later sold it in the same holder, I'd feel like I'd held up my end of the bargain and should not have to refund the money. But on the buyers side, I'd hate to be stuck with an altered card.

I say resubmit to SGC/PSA/Beckett and hope for the best. Good luck.

[tiger8mush]

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

+1

[edhans]

As Barry said earlier, sellers need to stand behind their product. Many sellers, including some prominent auction houses, like to hide behind third party graders. This auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was authentic and unaltered. If Todd fulfils that burden of proof that the card is trimmed, he is entitled to a refund. All of the other stuff about GAI and SGC, -4 or -5 and cracked or not cracked is irrelevant.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by edhans

As Barry said earlier, sellers need to stand behind their product. Many sellers, including some prominent auction houses, like to hide behind third party graders. This auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was authentic and unaltered. If Todd fulfils that burden of proof that the card is trimmed, he is entitled to a refund. All of the other stuff about GAI and SGC, -4 or -5 and cracked or not cracked is irrelevant.

I disagree about the cracked and not cracked out part. Who is to say someone can't crack out a card and replace it with a trimmed example? This is getting a bit off topic, but if I buy a card slabbed and crack it out I am doing that knowing that there is no chance I am going to get a refund.

[edhans]

Obviously Todd would have to prove that the card he purchased was altered. Clearly this would be more difficult if the card were cracked out.

[pwilk17]

Carters has 2996 positive feedback (quite an achievement in itself on ebay these days where one guy who pays $2 for a card leaves negative feedback because the post office got it to him in 4 days instead of 3), does absolutely nothing wrong and is now going to get first negative feedback for this - what a shame

[cozmokramer]

Forget about the seller... maybe GAI should just buy the card back for what it sold for and remove it from circulation in its current holder?

[edhans]

I think the auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was a GAI 7.5. Which it was.

So sellers now have the right to knowingly sell fake or altered cards that mistakenly end up in TPG holders? I think not. If the seller sold an altered card without adequate disclosure, he is liable for damages. It is irrelevant what any grading service's opinion is. The seller did not disclose that the card wasn't in it's original state. That seems like a material breach of contract to me.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by edhans

As Barry said earlier, sellers need to stand behind their product. Many sellers, including some prominent auction houses, like to hide behind third party graders. This auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was authentic and unaltered. If Todd fulfils that burden of proof that the card is trimmed, he is entitled to a refund. All of the other stuff about GAI and SGC, -4 or -5 and cracked or not cracked is irrelevant.

I think the auction carried an implicit warranty that the card was a GAI 7.5. Which it was.

[mdschulze]

the phrase, "the customer is always right" holds true in 98% of situations like these. Since the card is still in the slab and the buyer hasn't damaged the item, this case should be no exception. As a seller, you want the customer to be happy with their purchase so they will be repeat buyers and/or advertise for you by word of mouth, thus increasing your sales. The seller should just the refund, eat a couple of bucks for shipping, then just relist the card.... everyone wins.

[Chesbro41]

I bought this Pennock from the seller a couple weeks ago. I bought it to help me finish a subset and not the grade (I think it's at best a 50 or 40 SGC). But yeah... hope it's not trimmed. I'll cross it someday and find out.

This is the only GAI card I own because they are such a gamble.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

For those that are on the buyer's side, can someone answer Rob's question from above?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by pgellis

For those that are on the buyer's side, can someone answer Rob's question from above?

I think it depends on the auctions terms and conditions. I haven't checked too many card auctions because most stuff in the major auctions is outside my budget.

But I get stamp auction catalogs, and they always have a full page of fine print.
Usually if you want to send something off for certification (The stamp version of slabbing more like a COA) They want that stated up front and in writing, and a certain period of time is allowed for that process. And it's all spelled out in detail.

There have been items that were certified years ago that won't pass today because the knowledge of those types of items has increased. On most expensive stuff it's advisable to get a fresh certificate. I've seen a couple that came with 3 or more certificates some dating back to the 60's.
And if a high value item won't pass certification the auction house usually makes good on it anyway.

Steve B

[edhans]

Rawn,
Please re-read my posts. I never said that the seller knew the card was trimmed. It could have been an oversight. Or perhaps the seller, like so many other sellers, simply accepted the TPG's opinion and didn't bother to examine the card closely. It doesn't matter. If it turns out that it was altered, the seller should be responsible, regardless of what holder it was in.

Ed

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

anyone?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

anyone?

The answer is no. You'd then return it to SGC(assuming it's still holdered), and get your money from them. From the SGC website.

"The SGC Guarantee

SGC Guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein."

[pwilk17]

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

Well, that's where this gets tough, because GAI won't be doing anything at this point. Anyways, I'm pretty sure PRO wouldn't notice that it's trimmed, I think they'd just cross over. But let's be serious, who's gonna cross over a card to PRO? Let's just forget about PRO all-together.

PSA also has a financial guarantee.

"The PSA Financial Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder.

PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails our authenticity standards, PSA will buy the card back from the submitter at the current market value. The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on SMR values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA has sole discretion in regards to the buyback price."

HOWEVER, I've noticed that none of these companies seem to mention anything about another company deeming their cards unworthy of the given grade. At that point, it would be in the best interest to send back the still holdered card, along with the report from the second grading company to show PSA or SGC what was found, and then let them make the call from there.

Now as far as GAI goes... I believe Baker bought the old company and re-branded it, rather than starting a brand new company. Assuming that's the case, it should put him on the hook for any original GAI assets and/or screw ups.

[edhans]

Lee,
It was a mid to low grade group of T205s. It was sometime last fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush View Post
So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?
anyone?

The answer is yes. If the card is trimmed, the holder and any warranties, guaranties or disclaimers are irrelevant. The seller is responsible for the product he sells. The product under warranty is the card. The holder is merely one man's opinion of the authenticity, originality and grade of the card. Errors can, and have, been made. Sellers cannot hide behind grading company's mistakes. It's the duty of the seller to make the buyer whole and pursue any claim he may have against the grading company.

In the case of the 57 Banks, Tony listed the card as a PSA 7. By not expressly disclaiming that grade, he warranted that it was in near mint condition. If David could prove that the card wasn't in near mint condition, he is entitled to a refund. As a practical matter, that burden of proof would be exponentially more difficult than a trimmed vs 7.5. Another TPG's rating of EM6 would probably not be sufficient proof in this case.

[lharri3600]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

And The Band Played on!!

[Edwolf1963]

Very interesting read! I keep going back to simple communication being the root of many problems.

The opinions of who knew what and what Carters does/does not have to do are all subject to opinion and debate. To me, it all goes back to the fact that Carters has not responded to Todd in any way. Back to Johnny's point, the silence, ignoring, hope you'll go away stuff says more to me about this situation and Carters than anything else. That doesn't help anyone or anything - it's the root cause of this issue.

Seriously, would this thread even be here if Carters were to have responded to Todd? Picked up the phone, tried to work out some sort of mutually acceptable solution? And at the end of the day if the buyer is unhappy, then make him happy - resolve the situation and give him his money back!

Is it really worth it to hang on to Todd's money and wait and see what kind of vengence he can bring? Especially since they know they'll lose anyway (it is true that "all sales final", "no refunds", etc means nothing to eBay - if he sends the card back in same case/same condition .. and SGC won't crack unless you tell them to .. Todd will win whether or not you/me/Carters agrees with it) - so why ignore him - what will that get you..??

And wouldn't we all want to do business with someone who stands behind what they sell? Will be there to at least be respectful, listen and respond if I have a question/need? Treat me as a customer as they would want to be treated in kind? To me, that's what it all comes down to. I realize there are extreme circumstances (abuse, unreasonable demands, disrespectful behavior, etc) - but for most of us, the times when a customer is unhappy and wants an exception is rare - so why not step up and resolve the situation?

One thing out of all this is that I know I will avoid Carters .. not because of opinions on who's right, whether or not they knew the card was trimmed or shill accusations, etc. .. but because they haven't at least responded to Todd. Disrespectful and says a lot about them/the kind of business they run.

[pwilk17]

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!