Identification of Ruth Panel

[glchen]

This panel sold at the recent SCP auction here: Link

I did not win this auction, which described the lot as c.1915-1919 with Babe Ruth, Eddie Collins, Edd Roush, Rabbit Maranville, Tris Speaker and Eddie Cicotte. Out of curiosity, has anyone seen something like these before? Also, did the auction house get the dates and players correct? I know the Ruth is obvious, but on some cards, he has been shown in his Red Sox uniform even when he is with the Yankees. For the player list, I know SCP originally even had Joe Jackson as one of the players on the panel before they eventually corrected it.

[YankeeCollector]

Wow, very cool piece!

[Jaybird]

I emailed them during the auction and told them to take Joe Jackson off the description because it was misleading and inaccurate and made it seem like they were trumping up their auction. To their credit, they removed it.

I pointed out Maranville in lower left corner and provided sample pics for them. Eddie Collins is the guy above Maranville and Ed Roush above him.



I said I didn't think Speaker was in the pic but they didn't remove that.

The question for me is who are the two guys above Ruth. If we find them out, we find out the date, most likely. Typically it is the lesser known players that help to date the piece. Maybe it's Cicotte upper right but I just don't see it.

[HRBAKER]

Steve O'Neil on the right above Ruth.
If that's Edd Roush it's not a very good likeness unlike the other players.

[milkit1]

thats not ed rousch on top left its Heinie Groh and ray schalk is top right

[Exhibitman]

Looks like a Universal Toy & Novelty Manufacturing Co. card:

[bcbgcbrcb]

My guess would be 1919 based on the Ruth pic, it is a famous photo that I believe was taken during his last season with Boston. It could have been from 1920 even but I don't think earlier than 1919.

[Jaybird]

Thanks Sean, Here's Heinie Groh. I agree, it's him and not Roush.

[Shoeless Moe]

I don't think the one in the upper right is Cicotte, but rather Ray Schalk

[jp1216]

Pic of O'Neill

[CW]

Nice catch, Exhibitman (sorry, can't recall your name...), I think you nailed
the "issue".

...and as pointed out by Sean and Paul, Mr. Ray Schalk:

[HRBAKER]

So if I read your OP correctly the description only misidentified 4 out of 6 possible. Not bad!

[fkw]

these have been brought up before, but my computer is slow and I cant search for the info right now ;(

there are actually 2 types of these noncaption cards.... the "square portrait 6 image" type like the first post and also a "rectangular action 4 image" type like the boxing one Adam shows (baseball ones exist too).

I have scans of the "rectangular 4 action image" type with Ruth Johnson Coveleski and another player ...........I cant load it right now though

I have seen both types a few times in the past.

Universal Toy and Novelty Co. actually made 4 types of baseball cards, the well known W504, and also the crude hand drawn playing card type (black and red print) from the late 1920s (see example below), plus these 2 in this thread.


ca1929 W-Unc Universal Toy and Novelty Co. "crude playing card"
(Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig (Leon has one ), Shanty Hogan, Doug McWeeny, Jim Elliot (Elliot has the Universal Toy and Nov emblem on the card)

[fkw]

just noticed in Adam's kit image that the square portrait cards were not always issued in 6 card panels, so I have to change my description....

I will call them "square portrait image" and "rectangular action image"

baseball players are found in both types



edited to add a picture of the baseball "rectangular action image" type

ruth, johnson, unknown, coveleski
who is the player in bottom left again??

[milkit1]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So if I read your OP correctly the description only misidentified 4 out of 6 possible. Not bad!

yeah and they used the best possible wrong player too. joe jackson and tris speaker ?!?! WTF?

[Exhibitman]

CW: It's Adam.

The Universal playing card set also had movie/boxing star Victor McLaglen:



FWIW, I've seen the 6 image baseball card before as well but it was quite some time ago and I did not save a scan.

On the boxing card, the fighters that have been defintively ID'd are Luis Firpo [LL] and Benny Leonard [LR]

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by milkit1

yeah and they used the best possible wrong player too. joe jackson and tris speaker ?!?! WTF?

Can't expect them to err on the side of caution. That could be costly. Steve

[HRBAKER]

Frank,

I think the bottom left on your card is Geo Sisler.

[mybuddyinc]

On the boxing card, the fighters that have been defintively ID'd are Luis Firpo [LL] and Benny Leonard [LR]


Upper Left: Georges Carpentier (?)

[rhettyeakley]

We have had this discussion before on these, here was a similar card I had that now belongs to a different member of the Forum. Neat cards!

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....speaker+4-on-1

-Rhett

[Batter67up]

I have one of these and we went into great detail in 2009 as Rhett mentioned. Still some uncertainty to the year and the maker of these cards. It took me 3 weeks to get SGC to encapsulate the card with the documentation that I provided them. My belief is that my card was produced in 1919.

[Exhibitman]

I think the ones that have turned up in the Universal Surprise Box are pretty strong evidence that they were a Universal product.

[glchen]

Thanks for all of the updates. To summarize the findings, here are the players in the panel (team in panel along with years played on that team are in parens):

Panel 1

Top Row
Left: Heinie Groh (Reds): 1912-27 (1913-1921)
Right: Ray Shalk (White Sox): 1912-29 (1912-1928)

Middle Row:
Left: Eddie Collins (White Sox): 1906-1930 (1915-1926)
Right: Steve O'Neill (Indians): 1911-1925 (1911-1923)

Bottom Row:
Left: Rabbit Maranville (Braves): 1912-1935 (1912-1920, 1929-1925)
Right: Babe Ruth (Red Sox): 1914-1935 (1914-1919)

Panel 2 (from Rhett's Thread)

Top Row:
Left: Ray Shalk (White Sox): 1912-29 (1912-1928)
Right: Zach Wheat (Brooklyn): 1909-1927 (1909-1926)

Bottom Row:
Left: Steve O'Neill (Indians): 1911-1925 (1911-1923)
Right: Tris Speaker (Indians): 1907-1928 (1916-1926)


From these, it seems that the card can be categorized as:

Universal Toy and Novelty, c.1916-1919

although per Phil's post, since Ruth's picture is well known, it may be 1919-1920. Rhett's thread also implied that it was the later dates.

[fkw]

my vote would be "1920's" or just "1920"

there are other "portrait" cards (see the box display pics ) Cobb, Johnson, Alexander, Bancroft? (Giants)

whoever that NY Giants player is, is going to be the KEY in dating it IMO

also you missed one player in the "portrait" type, the bottom right player in the image with tape on the toploader (images was in one of the old threads).. someone said Thorpe? (unlikely) and someone said Toporser w/o his glasses? (very unlikely, average player started in 1921)

you must consider the other "action photo" type too, since the only known complete box contained them as well (Boxers), and someone pointed out the boxers are more likely from the early 20's.

the baseball player "action" cards are not going to be easy to date....
but looking at stats is unlikely Hornsby would make this set if it were made before 1920... (Ruth "batting", Sisler , Coveleski prob wouldnt made the set if issued before 1919)

quick list of Players seen on the "action" type are ...

Alexander (same pose as E121)
Hornsby
Ruth
Sisler (same pose as E121)
Coveleski
Johnson (same pose as E121)
and the 4 boxers

the boxers should date it better
and also the other stuff in box might help ie actress images etc.

another interesting thing is the image on front of box shows strip cards in a strip, these were more commonly sold post1919



love this stuff very interesting!

[FrankWakefield]

Frank, I agree with Jeff... as I scrolled through all of this I saw your card and immediately thought of Sisler, only to scroll a bit further and see Jeff suggesting that. I think I've seen a photo of that follow through, and my recollection is that it was Sisler.

Great stuff, guys.

[fkw]

Luis Firpo (boxer)
began his boxing career in So America in 1917, 2nd bout was 1918 in So Amer., 6 more wins in So. Amer in 1919
(Im far from a boxing expert) it doesnt look like he was "Huge" until 1922/23
fought Jack Dempsey at New York 9/1923

Benny Leonard (boxer) held the World Lightweight Championship from May 28, 1917 to January 15, 1925

[fkw]

1921 !!!


even though the image below is not 100%.... Id have to say this set is no earlier than 1921 and maybe later (Firpo facts) (Bancrofts 1st game with Giants was mid1920) and it would usually be the following year (minimum) before someone who put him in a set of cards this crude

(notice unique shadows on left and right side arm pit... 99.9% proof IMO)
(card images are not square because the original kit image was taken with a camera at an angle, so disregard the slope of the shoulders not matching perfect)


here is the Cobb images, it doesnt help much like I though it might, the uniform with the block "D" and black collar is from 1915-1916 so its an older photo than I was thinking

[rhettyeakley]

Frank, the Coveleski is also an E121 pose (Series of 120 only card)...


The fact that there is Bancroft represented, and the other items made simultaneously also included Luis Firpo & Bebe Daniels I too believe we are looking at a range of 1920-1923 with the "most likely" date being 1921 or possibly 1922.

[Exhibitman]

I am absolutely certain of the Firpo ID; I saw an original photo. Firpo did not come to the USA until 1922 but he had fought and beaten Gunboat Smith, a noted American challenger on the downside of his career, while he was in So. America. I think 1919 is a tad early on the cards for that reason. I'd think 1922-1923 more likely.