any pitfalls in buying certified autos from card companies?

[chaddurbin]

so i thought collecting modern sigs would be a fun little side hobby. instead of spending big bucks like prewars, for the cost of a lunch i can buy some modern sigs of guys i liked growing up and watching everyday.

now i find myself starting to drop some t206 frontline hof money on these cards so i'm wondering if there's anything to watch out for. they're certified, and they're from reputable cardmakers...but nothing is 100% fool-proof. scoreboard going out of business and lots of blank kobe/tim duncan auto cards got out and i read on here even to watch out for some fake jeters on topps cards. is it safe to just buy upper deck stuff all day?

[slidekellyslide]

Almost all of these cards state that they were signed in front of a rep for the card company so I think that's about as good as it gets...it's better than an opinion from a TPG. IMO these types of autos will hold future value over auto'd 8X10s, regular cards, and index cards with TPG COA's.

[thetruthisoutthere]

They are probably your safest bet when buying autograph cards but you still can't take them for granted. Don't forget the number of forgeries in the Upper Deck "Legendary Cuts" from 5-6 years ago. See the below Jeter/Rolen "1998 Topps Co-Signers" autograph card with the Topps "Certified Autograph Issue" stamp. Collectors assume that the autographs are legit. But the one below contains both Jeter and Rolen forgeries. Someone "backdoored" the masters of these cards and then forged the autographs. This also occurred on the Jeter/Karros card.


JeterRolenFake.jpg

[steve B]

The big company cards should nearly all be fine. Even most of the small company ones are good even if they're nearly all lesser players. I've been collecting the signature rookies stuff for fun since they were new.

They (SR) did have one football player the first year where about 700 out of 10,000 were not his. I think the story was that the player got some help from a relative while the rep was in the bathroom or something. Supposedly the numbers of the wrong ones are known, although I've never been able to find the info. And they changed the proceedures after that.

Unsigned sig cards do get out, but I think that's unusual. I have a stack of Kordell Stewart unsigned 5 sport cards, but the card was never issued signed.

Steve B

[scmavl]

I'd think they are safe too... but take a look at this Mantle: http://cgi.ebay.com/MICKEY-MANTLE-Si...item27b93cfb12 I've never seen a Mantle sig remotely like it...

[chaddurbin]

funny bathroom relative helping story, that's hilarious!

i never get the big value/demand of the cut autos either. buy a $80 ted williams postcard, have upper deck or topps cut it up and somehow it's worth $800 now...weird logic.

i'm a total autograph newbie so i'll be sticking to certify stuff for now. the feeling of not knowing how to differentiate between the good mantle ball from the bad in another thread is akin to many other new collectors here who want to jump right into a '33 goudey ruth . thanks guys!

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by scmavl

I'd think they are safe too... but take a look at this Mantle: http://cgi.ebay.com/MICKEY-MANTLE-Si...item27b93cfb12 I've never seen a Mantle sig remotely like it...

jarrod this one was hand-signed later and was not certified by pinnacle/score.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by scmavl

I'd think they are safe too... but take a look at this Mantle: http://cgi.ebay.com/MICKEY-MANTLE-Si...item27b93cfb12 I've never seen a Mantle sig remotely like it...

That seller "had" a "500 Homerun Club" signed bat up for auction the other day. Ugly.

[Orioles1954]

I assume TPG means third-party grader? I would recommend only signed "on card" autographs from living players. Several cut autos from modern companies have eventually been found to be fake.

[scmavl]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

jarrod this one was hand-signed later and was not certified by pinnacle/score.

Ah... Probably "hand signed in person by Mickey in 2003" or something.

[Lordstan]

Even with the big companies be careful.
Recently a 1927 NY Yankee fold-out with signatures of the starting nine was found to have questionable signatures of Ruth and Gehrig as well as others.
I can't find the link with the story right now, but I'll look later and post it.

Not to reopen the discussion from a previous thread, but considering that the big companies either use the TPGs or in house personnel who have even less expertise, I would make sure you educate yourself on what you are buying.

[chaddurbin]

yes good advice. i would never buy anything "cut" from the card companies, only what they can actually oversee or authenticate themselves. plus i don't want to pay the 1000% markup on sigs that have unknown origins.

[danc]

Chris Perez purchased a one-of-a-kind Topps card, a fold-out booklet with the signatures of nine 1927 New York Yankees attached. The two biggies? Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig, while the seven other autographs are the rest of the starters in the legendary lineup known as "Murderers' Row." The cost? A mere $20,000.

"This is definitely a nice little gift I'm giving myself for my new contract," Perez said from spring training in Goodyear, Ariz. "Some people buy cars, jewelry, houses. I wanted to buy something a little different. I could barely talk my wife into letting me bid the initial $20,000 let alone get in a bidding war."

In an interview about the card and his collecting habits appearing in the latest issue of Beckett Sports Card Monthly, Perez admits that he does chase his own cards -- though they're not quite as expensive. He appears on just 235 cards, according to the Beckett.com database, and they're worth an average of just $3.51 apiece.

"I own every one of my own cards, except the 1/1s [where only one copy is made]," he said. "But I do check out eBay to see if there are any printing plates or other 1/1s."

Perez, who made his big-league debut with the St. Louis Cardinals in 2008, said his biggest previous card purchase was an autographed 2001 Bowman Chrome Albert Pujols rookie card -- a card that typically fetches about $4,000

"I have made some big purchases before," he said, "but nothing of this magnitude."

[DJR]

.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by DJR

From another message board, "I frequent the message boards over at sportscollectors.net. The subject was brought up about certified autographed cards and whether or not you preferred them or just regular base cards that are autographed...
***"

"The companies don't witness the signings and not all are signed by the players. I sat at a table doing a signing and happened to mention to the player the "certified" card of his I had seen that looked different from the items he was signing. He said 1 day a package arrived from the company of 500 cards with a note to please sign and return. He said he signed about 100 and his secretary at his business signed the rest....

Another time I went to a players room who was a friend of a friend. When we walked in there were 4 guys sitting around a table full of cards laughing. The player said they were sent to him by a company and they were all signing them and laughing about it.... He even invited us to "grab a stack and join in".

I don't know how anyone could authenticate modern signatures...let alone read them. Compare any team signed ball from 1930 to 2010...I could probably read every single name on the 1930 ball whereas I probably couldn't decipher a single name on the 2010 ball.

[chaddurbin]

djr--have a link to that thread?

[drc]

In an interview for my wesbite a few years ago, I specifically asked James Spence about modern certified auto cards and authenticity. He said, other than a few issues, the autographs he'd seen looked good. So overall, he gave this area a thumbs up. This was back when he head authenticator at PSA/DNA.

Most of the big issues I've heard of are where the sig is a vintage cut from a check or whatever, not where the athlete was paid to sign. I have heard of one or two instances, where the athlete had his brother or whomever sign and I believe Jack Kemp used an autopen on one card-- but these aren't rare odd events and weren't even baseball.

In short I wouldn't be a blind, nothing-can-go-wrong buyer, but the area is one of the safest areas for authentic autographs, as the the signer is under contract to sign and often there was a card company witness to the signing. With the major card companies (Topps, Fleer, Donruss, Upper Deck, etc), you should be the safest. And, of course, it's always a good thing to ask questions like, "Does this look like Nolan Ryan's signature? Let me compare to some of the signatures."

[DJR]

.

[Piedmont Sport]

Be REAL careful i know lots of dealers that supply - Upper Deck and other card companies with autos and many are BAD. However i've also seen where a client got an auto and brought to a grading co. and was rejected.

[Exhibitman]

The Pro Set Jack Kemp cards were auto-penned. I pulled one from a pack and compared it to another one by superimposing the scans and they were identical to the last detail.