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One can have all the experience in the world and it is all worthless if the person they are apprenticed under is not qualified themselves. remember, only perfect practice makes perfect. everything else is just practiced mistakes. It is relatively easy to create these forgeries, but the "experts" seem to have a much harder time finding them. at some point, collectors at large will realize the "authenticated" signature is nothing more than a piece of paperwork, and really doesnt amount to a hill of beans |
You’re right. I’m trying to deflect because you have me all tied up with your genius ramblings. I’m going to go lay by my dish completely defeated.
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How can you say it's so easy to make these forgeries? People were fooled for years in some cases. And not just the TPA's, but people who have been in the hobby for a very long time and might consider themselves experts in this very specific area.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCGxsGelS50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NADYoGCl1Mc There's a ton of these vids available but as we have seen and learned, likely not many know these are available and should be watched before purchasing anything signed. :( |
not sure whether to thank you
or not - your forgeries news links linked to more links and I've already spent an hour looking at them. I bookmarked the Halper one to savor after my gin game...…….
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Forged t206’s
Any update on who the culprit(s) are?
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The parties that have been the most affected know the name and are still working with authorities. I just got off of the phone with one of them and there is no new news so the situation is the same. If someone has some emergency issue, or thinks they have bad signed cards from this same person, they should PM me and we can discuss it. I know some people hate that the name hasn't been made public but as of this moment it's not the most prudent thing, imo, or the opinions of the few people who have had to write refund checks.
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Thanks for your understanding.
No, it is not a hobby name anyone would know of....I don't believe. At least the auctioneers I have spoken with didn't know the name, as well myself. Quote:
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Identity
Next to REA I’ve written the biggest refund check for a single card as I authorized Brian to withhold the $21,000 that I would have received from the sale of the Baker that I had purchased from REA in 2015. I should also add that Brian refunded me for the $9,000 I paid for the card originally, so although I lost $12,000, I’m not out anything. I’ve had two separate people message me with the same information regarding the culprit. The first person wanted me to release the information, but then changed his mind at the request of the investigators. Because I’m an attorney I felt that the communication was confidential and so I did not release it at that time. However, another individual has now asked that I release the information on his behalf and since I see no compelling reason not to I am going to disclose it. I practice exclusively criminal defense and I can guarantee that there is absolutely no legitimate reason that law enforcement would not want this information released. Here is the information I have regarding the identity of the subject/suspect:
eBay ID: givepeaceachance14 eBay location: Girard, OH Quote:
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It's not too late to vote for Jason as the #1 Net 54 poster. :)
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full name?
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There can be no legitimate reason for authorities to say they prefer the info not be made public yet? And you are guaranteeing it. Cool.
According to you, you are out nothing financially and REA is out (a lot more) than you mentioned and this was ok to do? I am glad you aren't out anything as others are. Great move here.. Quote:
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REA refunded Jason the 9K he originally spent on the fake auto. Should he not have accepted the money?
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Props
Thank you Jason.
The weeks old: "I'll tell you soon" party line was getting tiresome. |
givepeaceachance...I tell ya...it's ironic to me...almost every time an ebayer is revealed to be a crook of sorts...their name is ironic in that it includes something sketchy...in this case disguised as a do gooder!
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Why wouldn't the auction house be out the money? The buyer paid for something they didn't receive that was represented as something it wasn't. The buyer is supposed to absorb the loss on something like that?
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Brian |
I don't see how you could pursue a refund on an opinion.
If the auction description described the item as being an authentic signature as a matter of fact and not opinion, then the item was clearly not described correctly and that, in my opinion, would be grounds for a refund on the sale. If anything I think this whole situation might have a positive impact on how descriptions for lots are written to reflect opinions for what they are. This is just a snippet from a description written by an AH for a signed T206: Marquard has boldly signed the card on the front in blue ink, with the signature grading "9/10." Now, that to me is saying that Marquard unquestionably signed the card. A more accurate description would say "the signature is bold and in blue ink, with the signature on the card grading "9/10". |
Hey Brian, Brent, Al, Scott, Lee, Joe et al,
All future autograph auction listings should include the following verbiage: ”Presumed Authentic” regardless of the authenticater or certification. Problem solved. Your welcome.;) |
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W/R/T refunds and who pays, last year I purchased a JSA full-certed signed card from a MEARS auction that turned out to be a pre-print. Both companies offered an immediate refund when I provided the information establishing the mistake. I am not sure which of them bore the ultimate cost of it.
It isn't that mistakes are made--they are--it is how they are handled. Whether it is a $500 error or a $9,000 error, the auctioneer should do as Brian did and the TPA should step up and make good to the auctioneer. The only one who should be out money is the TPA who made the mistake that touched off the whole chain of events. I would think that the public relations damage of JSA or SGC or PSADNA refusing to do so would cause would greatly exceed the cost of being exposed as someone who does not stand behind the work product. Not to mention the cost of being embroiled in what could be some FUGLY litigation over the snafu. |
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One of the main selling points of the TPAs is to 'authenticate' a particular piece of memorabilia (card, autograph, etc) therefore increasing the value of the item. See their claims of record setting prices for items they have graded. They are not just selling opinions. That may be what you are getting, but that is not what the TPAs are marketing. |
whatever happened to “Never get cheated”?
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au·then·tic /ôˈTHen(t)ik adjective of undisputed origin; genuine. "the letter is now accepted as an authentic document" synonyms: genuine, real, bona fide, true, veritable; |
Fake T206s
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Don't buy high grade vintage or autographs without good provenance, graded (opinionated) or not. Problem mostly solved. I have never sweat over an autograph. I have never bought one. And I only have one higher grade card and know where it came from before being graded. No doubt there are altered cards in high grade holders but at least they are real. :) A fake autograph just ruins whatever it is on.
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I don't really see the outrage over "opinions" being in the description. If you read any LOA you have you will only read an opinion. So if you accept an opinion on your LOA, then why can't you accept the word in the auction description?
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I'd think "trimmed t206s too many to list" would be more apropos. Likely to cause too many hard feelings though, as it would upset many more members here
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Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?
I am sure there is fraud in other hobbies but is it this widespread? My other hobbies do not involve collecting anything, fortunately, except my airline boarding passes. |
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https://www.netflix.com/title/81032626 |
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It depends. One of the more prolific stamp fakers recently did volume, but mostly didn't get much for his stuff. I bought one, and it was a 60 cent stamp altered to make a maybe 600 dollar stamp that I "won" for about ten bucks. Famous forgers work in some cases is itself collectible, and sometimes sells for more than the original (I don't own a Sperati or Fournier, that I know of but will eventually. ) The authentication process is probably more involved for the really expensive stuff and isn't generally done on a time schedule. I believe it's the same for art and antiques, but the money in some art is amazing. Coins I'm not so sure about, but there is a lot of well done fakery these days. |
Art has always been faked. Every year people go to museums and look at fraudulent artwork. According to this 2010 article, it's estimated that 20 % of all artwork in major British museums are fraudulent pieces.
I'm sure an expert looked at these paintings too. You can't ask for infallibility from a human being. |
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James |
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I was aware of the art, it always gets press coverage.
But do stamps and coins have as much fraud as this hobby? Do less popular collectibles have a lot of fraud? |
Rare Books
The rare book market went thru a forgery scandal in the 1930’s when some incredible research, much like this research, discovered that a number of pamphlets thought to be first editions, were published at a later date. The forger was identified as one of the world’s greatest collectors and bibliographer, who himself authenticated the forgeries. The story is fascinating and research continues to this day. The book that first described the forgeries is An Equiry into certain Nineteenth Century Pamphlets, by John Carter and Graham Pollard.
If anyone is interested I could supply other titles. The forger was Thomas Wise. There have been other interesting more recent examples like the Mormon and Texas history forgeries, in which a number of people were killed. |
I'm confused (which doesn't take much)
If this happened in early 2017: http://www.wfmj.com/story/35123889/y...raud-to-prison Who's doing it now? his grandma? |
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The Vinland Map has recently been proven to be a fake and the evidence continues to mount.
Yet it is still displayed at the Yale Beinecke Library in a nice shiny display case. Go figure. |
The article names 2 other residents of Girard, one of whom got probation and the other of whom had yet to be sentenced at the time the article was written. I’d also point out that 6 years prison does not mean 6 years prison. If Ohio is anything like Oklahoma 6 years prison could mean a few months incarceration followed by supervised probation, possibly with an ankle monitor. This activity obviously seems very serious to us in the hobby, but for prosecutors and law enforcement this is very low level stuff. In fact, I would guess that even a second offense would result in minimal punishment. If I were representing the guilty party I’d feel like anything more serious than a deferred sentence would mean I didn’t do my job very well. It will be interesting to see how things unfold, but my expectations are low.
Jason Quote:
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Someone MUCH MORE knowledgeable about US Coins than I am could better tell the story of a forger who was making rare date $20 St. Gaudens Gold Coins from common ones...
His work was so good that he was never caught, I believe, despite the fact that he left his mark on many of the coins that he worked on. His "work" is even collectible today because of his "talent". I'm sure that I'm forgetting some of the details... |
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I suppose it depends on what you think of as both "as much" and fraud. Stamps has plenty of low level stuff going on. altering something to appear to be something it's not is pretty easy. And doing stuff to make less saleable items saleable is even easier. And that's been going on almost as long as there's been a hobby. Sometimes it was done years ago, and that can get amusing at times. The main area I collect is the 1873 and 1879 officials. in 1875 the POD decided to print reprints of every us stamp ever issued as part of the upcoming centennial celebrations. To prevent illegal use, they overprinted the officials with "specimen" Some were really common, some sold less than 100 copies. And for years collectors didn't think much of those overprinted stamps. The common ones often have the "Specimen" erased and a fake cancel added sometimes it's well done, sometimes they just crossed the overprint out with a pen. On ones like the 1cent executive dept its an effort to turn a stamp that might sell for $15 into one that might bring 2-400. On others it gets sort of comical... I have one of the really uncommon ones that was done to. 72 copies sold, catalog value 1200. I got it for $20 as a common used copy of the basic stamp. It's not worth 1200, but certainly more than 20 and whoever altered it in the past sort of did me a favor as I probably wouldn't own one otherwise. Cancellations and other postal markings are faked pretty often, stamps are added to covers to represent rare uses, etc. Most aren't truly expensive, and that's because the authenticating groups take their time making a decision. And ALL the really expesnive stuff gets scrutinized very closely. Even stuff that's known to be "good" . A few articles http://www.rfrajola.com/opinions/klep.htm http://www.rfrajola.com/opinions/gslc.htm This one is a summary of a controversial group of stamps. The most recent expertizing took 5 Years and resulted in a book full of details that even most stamp collectors couldn't love. http://www.rfrajola.com/grinnells/grinnells.htm |
Stanley Gibbons (the people behind the British version on the Scott stamp catalog) purchased the printing plates for several early Argentina stamps (the 1862-65 issues I believe) and ran off a bunch of forgeries that continue to confuse stamp collectors to this day.
That's about as scandalous as Jefferson Burdick printing thousands of card fakes and still being held in high regard. |
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Stanley Gibbons is their own company. And when they were newish both Scotts and Gibbons did some iffy things, some more iffy than others. Many of the early dealers who sold in large volume did. One of the salesmen (Or other official) for one of the banknote companies was regularly an early visitor to any new government in South America. Want instant legitimacy? You NEED stamps! Thousands of them, in as many different denominations as you can afford. Nevermind that the ousted government left behind a few hundred thousand I sold them 2 years ago, you need your own stamps as soon as possible! Then his friends would buy the remainders at a few cents on the Dollar. And sometimes he doubled the order and kept half. The purchased stamps were sold to a few very large dealers in Europe who made packets for sale to new collectors. Quite a racket. |
This thread is saddening, yet very informative.
Proof is in the pictures. Why I love Net54. |
Forged coins are somewhat common, coming from China
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If they were called “OOA” (Opinions on Authenticity) or “LOAO” (Letter of Authenticity Opinion) then I might lean a little more to agreeing with you. Stating it’s your LOA and underlying in the fine print that it’s an opinion is borderline fraud. |
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The people who get paid for their opinions wouldn't get paid as much if they spent time underlining the part about it being an opinion. The people who pay for opinions want to believe that the opinions they pay for are some sort of guarantee. So they treat them as if they are. It's not "borderline fraud", it's blatant ignorance of the facts. You get what you pay for. Not what you want to think you paid for. Or maybe you don't. Laughing out loud. Doug |
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It doesn't appear the ebay ID that was revealed rang a bell with anyone? Virtually nothing has been said about it.
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Where have we seen this before
LMFAO
Letters Marketing Fraudulently Authentic Opinions |
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Having read tidbits on here about Sal Bando and not knowing what some were referring to, I decided to check to see if I could find anything.
It didn't take long to find this, which I assume is the story people are alluding to in here? https://forums.collectors.com/discus...d-news-for-jsa In my searching it was easy to find other stories as well, which only makes me scratch my head further wondering how some of these companies are still in business today? :confused: https://live.autographmagazine.com/f...-they-possibly I'll abide with Leon's wishes not to post the Hauls of Shame link, but that one is real interesting as well. :eek: |
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Looks like it was signed with one of those rare early 20th century sharpies. :D |
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Amazing documentary on how the wine hobby was duped. Watch it! |
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Killing stamp market from what people are forums seem to be. Saying. Or killed it I should say.
Anywhere there is money and the chance for people to cheat, sadly. |
forge
Records too
I got burned with some early " rare " Beatle records, also another famous fake is the John Lennon Roots LP |
Any new updates on this? Did PSA, SGC or JSA (James Spence authentication) have anything to say about this yet or has all been hush hush? :confused:
Another thread was started discussing the impact this will have on the Auto side of collecting. Have people noticed this and seen a big drop in prices or people collecting them? Was/were the perp(s) ever caught and charged or is this investigation still ongoing? |
The EBay username was shown. Everyone was satisfied they were part of the in crowd now, so the thread died, pending a new major update that will excite the masses again.
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Collectors bear some responsibility too. Many are too impatient, don't ask questions, properly research and take the word of authenticators as gospel without knowing their backgrounds. Tell me, does everything go back to the way it was once this guy is caught? Or, do we as collectors and dealers have a responsibility to make sure these kind of things are not forgotten so they don't happen again? |
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NOBODY CARES. Scammers get outed all the time and people still line up to buy from them. If you read the threads outing the scammers there are other scammers posting in those threads on how that is now or should be accepted in the hobby. |
There isn't anything funny about this. It isn't that nobody cares -the collectors who got taken care. A friend of mine got taken for 18 grand on one card alone. How about the integrity of the Hobby we all enjoy?
If anyone hasn't seen it yet, the documentary on Netflix called "Sour Grapes" really points out that many collectors turn a blind eye or make excuses for things they know is wrong. At what point does the Hobby come crashing down again? You know it will at some point and it's going to be harder and harder to convince new collectors to part with their money if everything they see is built on fraud. |
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