Hi Frank

My explanation of why OLD MILL, POLAR, BEAR, SWEET CAPORAL (besides PIEDMONT) is simple. Before the printer(s) at American Litho realized they left the remnant of the "N"
when they initially erased "Nat'L" from the printing plate, they printed several T-brands on the backs of the pre-printed (front) sheets. Then, some "keen-eyed" printer spotted it
and completely erased this mark on the plate.

I may add....that PSA (several years ago) graded a Joe Doyle Nat'L card with a POLAR BEAR back on it. And, a collector paid a lot of $$$$$ for this fake card.

TED Z
.

I don't think that's accurate Ted, the ones with the partial N were made from a particular plate and the small remnant was most likely never spotted or
removed.

T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card Survey
 

Pat

I don't understand what you mean by "a particular plate" ?


Perhaps the description in my above post isn't clear. So, I will try to elucidate here......

(A) American Litho (ALC) initially printed (incorrectly) the front of Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card. Followed by the back with the PIEDMONT 350 advertisement.
ALC usually printed the PIEDMONT backs first and in a much greater amount. PIEDMONT was ATC's "flagship" Tobacco brand.

(B) An astute ALC employee caught this error (Nat'L) and quickly stopped the press. They removed the word "Nat'L" from the plate which prints the captions.
However, in the process the printer left a tiny remnant of the "N" on the caption plate.

(C) ALC then continued to print Joe Doyle N. Y. . cards. And at this point they also started to print the OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and SWEET CAPORAL backs.

(D) A keen-eyed ALC employee spotted the extraneous printer's mark and stopped the presses. And again the plate which printed the captions was cleared of
this extraneous mark.

(E) ALC then continued printing the correct Joe Doyle cards (with PIEDMONT,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, and TOLSTOI backs).


Hey guys, although this is my theory of the events that transpired at ALC in this matter....it is based on my experience working at a Print Shop in my youth.


TED Z
.

We know that the T206 sheets were printed with the same vertical subject in several rows on a sheet. For example if there were five Doyle's on a sheet
there would have been five sets of plates (one for each position on the sheet) so the Doyle with the partial N would have come from a particular position
and plate as would the Doyle examples missing the period/part of the Y and the ones missing the bottom of the Y that I posted in a previous post.

Thank you Pat and Ted!

The knowledge by everyone in this community never ceases to amaze me. Thank you! Frank

T206 REFERENCE.....the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...mont350x13.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...BatP460x12.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eetCap11xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dmont42x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg
...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___Piedmont #42 ........ Hindu ........... Sovereign


I received a call today from a long-time Sportscard collecting buddy who I haven't heard from in many a moon. He "dug up" his BB cards which he archived many years
ago, and he wanted to tell me that his T206 set includes 9 of the Elite 11 with PIEDMONT 350 cards. And, his Joe Doyle has the "printer's mark" on it's caption. Most all
of his T206's are from an original collection which he acquired in Georgia back in the 1980's..

I sense there is connection between the Elite 11 cards and the Joe Doyle card....despite the fact that the former 11 cards are 150/350 subjects; and, the Joe Doyle card
was initially printed during the 350 Series production runs. The pop reports further reinforce my thinking since the Elite 11 PIEDMONT 350 numbers closely coincide with
the 9 (or 10) known Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards.

I say this, since the majority of finds of the PIEDMONT 350 cards of the Elite 11 are from the Atlanta (GA) area. Also, several of the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L were originally
from the Atlanta area. Starting with Senator Russell's 1910-1911 T-card collection (on display at the Univ. of Georgia) that includes the Joe Doyle Nat'L card.

Furthermore, approx. 12 years ago, I acquired a lot of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. All these cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta.
This collection was strictly PIEDMONT 350 cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 8 of the Elite 11 cards in this group.

In 2017, Turner Engle acquired an original collection of T205's & T206's from Roswell, GA. This collection included several of the Elite 11 cards with PIEDMONT 350 backs.

I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006, for more info refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180


Therefore.....give this subject some thought, and let's see what kind of connection we can arrive at, with respect to the printing of these cards ?


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE.....the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...mont350x13.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...BatP460x12.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eetCap11xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dmont42x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg
...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___Piedmont #42 ........ Hindu ........... Sovereign


Well, since there haven't been any responses yet to my inquiry in the above post, it's time for a friendly "bump".....

So, I'll display the Joe Doyle cards in my "complete" PIEDMONT....SOVEREIGN....SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #30) sets [missing the Wagner's] :D


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...nt350SGC40.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...EIGNsgc50x.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...joedoylesc.jpg



I'm open to any ideas, that may associate the printing of the Joe Doyle Nat'L cards with the Elite 11 cards, that lend to some meaningful discussion(s).


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

I was waiting for some other people to reply Ted but since they didn't
I will say there is substantial evidence that there is no printing relationship of
the DOYLE N.Y. NAT"L to the elite 11.

I'm heading off to work and I will post more later but consider these facts
from the two name cards and plate scratches.

The elite eleven cards with plate scratches are spread out among different
sheets.

In the list of two name cards there are no examples of a 150 only or 150/350
subject mixed in with a 350 subject. If it's a 150 -150/350 subject on the
bottom it's the same on the top name and vice-versa for the 350 subjects.

There's a two name Dahlen Boston with Heinie Wagner on top.

T206 REFERENCE.....the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects
 

Pat

I appreciate your response to this subject.

The Elite 11 which you noted with plate scratches, are these scratches only on their PIEDMONT 150 cards, or also on the PIEDMONT 350 versions ?


Normally, I would not draw any connection between 150/350 Series cards and 350 Series cards.....such as the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle
card, respectively.

I find it hard, though, to dismiss the repeated coincidences regarding the source between the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards.
The sources of the Elite 11 subjects are from original finds strictly in the greater Atlanta area.

Four documented original finds of the Elite 11 cards have been identified as emanating from Atlanta area. And at least two original finds (perhaps
more) of the Joe Doyle Nat'L card are also identified from the Atlanta area.

Furthermore, the average of the numbers in the pop reports indicate that the Elite 11 subjects (PIEDMONT 350) and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L (10-
cards) are quite comparable. I cannot believe this is just due to mere coincidence.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Ted

The plate scratches are on the Piedmont 150 only I haven't found any of the scratches that have continued over to the Piedmont 350's.

Ganley and Shaw are on the left side of sheet 1A with Konetchy in between them

Attachment 443903

Dahlen is on sheet 2b

Attachment 443905


Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer are on sheet 3 with Lindaman in the right of center Mullin, Schaefer, and Karger are on the right end with Tannehill
in between Mullin and Schaefer


Attachment 443907

There are no confirmed scratches for Ewing, Jones, Lundgren or spencer.

also the fact that Joe Doyle was printed with a Sovereign 350 apple green back suggests to me that he was initially intended to be a 350/460 subject
and the printing of any of his cards including the NAT"L wouldn't have began until long after the piedmont 350's were printed on the elite 11.