Fantastic legwork comparing before and after auto pictures. If anyone would take the time to write up a few sites and strategies for sleuthing I would be glad to invest a few hours here and there looking for matches.

Is this a dead thread? No outcome? No arrests?

Who was the forger?
 

Sorry if I missed it, but what was the name of the forger? Or are the authorities still instructing not to share this with the collecting community?

Any updates?

After a 20+ minute phone call yesterday the OP was banned, unfortunately, due to registration violations. On the phone he could not provide a way to positively ID himself. He told me he knew no one in the hobby, didn't bid on ebay or with any auction house. It was quite an uncomfortable call in that I repeatedly told him all I need to do is be comfortable with who he says he is. He never could or would provide that info. Very strange. Some folks think it could be Peter Nash.....and that could open up a whole nuther bag of worms. In reality he could be who he says he is but too many things didn't add up. Late last night another piece of info was revealed that makes me believe Manny could be Manny....but everything just doesn't add up. We ended the call politely with me telling him I wasn't satisfied with who he says he is. Good bye...
ps...my understanding, from a reliable source, is the investigation is ongoing as of yesterday....

Thanks for the update Leon

Completely understand your actions, but I wonder if he was nervous confirming identity for fear of being outed himself. I imagine there are certain people who might be negatively interested in him.

Believe me, I told him several times his identity would stay with only me and possibly the authorities. I don't think he liked that answer. It really could be Manny but I can't believe some of what he told me. Unlike other forums this one has 0 tolerance for complete anonymity. And I think it is why we have some higher profile members (auction houses, lawyers, etc...) because they know they will get to know who is saying what about them. Some say, well if it is complete fact, why should they have to say who they are? Well, because it is my belief that each person or company has a right to know who is saying stuff about them.

WOW, that is crazy that a 7 year member that has seriously helped the forum got banned.

I do understand and really like the name rule on here. Like Manny if that is his real name I know absolutely nobody in the hobby. I also do not bid with any auction houses. About the only thing I an guarantee is I am not Peter Nash.:)

But, I hope, if you and I were on the phone for 20+ minutes you would be able to provide information to verify your identity. Anyone on this forum could have the same issue, I guess. I can verify my identity, no issue.

Just a thought if he is afraid of repercussions maybe he can reveal proof of identity to a disinterested 3rd party?

Ah, but you know me, and I can vouch for your identity!

Short of scanning my ID, I', not sure I could prove I'm me either.

I've been around since the late 70's in the hobby with a few stretches of relative inactivity. I've always been sort of an "under the radar" sort of guy. So while I know people (More like know of people) in the hobby, I'm really certain they wouldn't remember me. The only ones that would I'm pretty sure aren't on here, and I'm not sure if or how they're involved in the hobby anymore.


And aside from one of the more minor auctions which isn't operating anymore and Ebay, I have yet to bid in a hobby auction.

I assume committee for the O'Doul award will not look favorably on these happenings. :D

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=award

Rube Marquard
 

So a Rub e Marquard signed T206 ended on ebay last night for $613.00 through Probstein. Was this one of the ones outed in this thread

In don’t know the answer, but do you really want to know?;)

Probstein is a red flag to me.

But that is just me, I guess.

Name above post.

Just one historical note on why Leon asks for names and I agree with him.

In the previous world pre-Net 54 we had the Full Count Vintage Board. The concept was great but way too soon the board truly became a shouting match full of obscenities and terrible things said about way too many good (and sometimes bad) people.

The reason names are here is so someone can face their accuser. That is a basic American right.

it was brought up about Deep Throat in another board. Yes he was anonymous but Woodward and Bernstein put THEIR names on the Watergate articles so there was still persons out there one could ID.

Regards
Rich

SOme thoughts/questions
 

1 - Interestingly coincidental that the dialogue took place yesterday and this thread was revived today. What Leon, if you can/are willing to share - prompted the conversation last night?
2 - I am a little mixed on this one. On one hand I understand and fully support the transparency the "name policy" provides. On the other hand, the facts that have been presented here still stand. I read the whole thread a while back, and don't recall Manny directly accusing anyone - just stating/sharing the facts.
3 - With the scope and money involved in this, I would be a bit hesitant to be too visible if I were the one who outed it.
4 - Another question Leon- you stated Manny couldn't prove who he was, but that you spoke for a bit - did he express any reason why he couldn't/wouldn't - do you have any suspicion about some
thing being factually off in what has been presented in this thread?
5 - As has been said a few times - a shame to lose someone who stuck his neck out to expose this.

1. Pure coincidence of this thread being bumped. I was going to say something soon anyway but when I saw the thread I decided to go ahead and say it. I was tipped off by another board member who showed me several things that, when put together, seemed suspicious. That is what prompted the call. When I mentioned it to another hobby veteran today he also thought the whole thing was a little weird, from the start. Some things just didn't add up.

2. Regardless of anything else, there is no absolute anonymity allowed on this board. In the time this crew (Dan and Brian too) has been running it that has always been adhered to. I imagine it will continue. For devil's advocate, what if he was an anonymous criminal who is still doing bad stuff in the hobby? He had factual evidence.. but I believe in the clean hand doctrine. Criminals (dirty hands) shouldn't be spareheading anti-crime campaigns. I am not saying Manny isn't Manny, as I don't know for sure....and I sure don't know if he has done any crime, I was only making a point concerning anonymity.

3. He absolutely didn't have to be visible whatsoever, except to a moderator (me). I told him over and over he would remain 100% private on the board otherwise.

4. To paraphrase some of what he said, he said he didn't want to be known or well known. He liked to be private. There is a chance that is all this is. Unfortunately it doesn't matter if you read 2, above, again. I can't imagine letting someone anonymously post on our board.

5. I agree completely. I didn't want to ask him to leave. That wasn't my intention at all. I have nothing against him other than this registration issue. Nothing at all. I am pretty sure I told him I would rather him be on the board but I have to be comfortable with someone's registration id and I wasn't with his. It never got resolved and we politely hung up. He would be allowed back if his id is verified better. (or at all, really)

Hope that helps clarify it. I was sort of stunned it happened but what he told me (knowing no one in the hobby and bidding no where) given all he has written on the board, seems almost impossible.

His posting history shows he has done deals on the B/S/T...anyone here recall buying from him? Do they know who they paid? Where the package came from?

We talked about that. From personal experience that is not foolproof. Another coincidence that was found out today, Nash fell behind in child support and received a court order on 6/29/18. Manny tried to sell a now deunked 1887 Detroit cdv on the BST on 7/6/18. Could be just another coincidence....there are some other head scratchers too. I hope we find out it is Manny whomever and he comes back. We'll see.

Just when you thought things couldn't get any stranger....

https://cdn.bleacherreport.net/image...jpg?1283184230

"Manny" is banned for id issues
 

I have spoken with a half a dozen board members (hobby friends) the last few days. None of them had realized Manny (Setbuilder), the OP, has been banned for not being who he says he is, or at a minimum, not being able or wanting to prove his identity. Kind of weird. My guess is one id issue isn't related to the other autograph forgery issues. My guess, and this is only a guess, is this imposter might have uncovered a fraud situation without being involved other than outing it. Which is sort of the MO of who this is believed to be, or associated with. A positive id always has, and will be, required for membership here.

.

I obviously don't know all the 'inner" details why Manny was banned but if you were a guy responsible for outing a "huge" fake signature/forgery scam, would you really want your name out there this day and age?

He found pictures of the unsigned cards on the internet and matched them to pictures of the signed cards. This was all public information that anyone could’ve stumbled across. I’m not minimizing the good detective work, however it’s not like he was an informant blowing the whistle. To assert he would be in some sort of danger for pointing out pictures on public websites is a bit melodramatic.

And secondly, Leon has stated repeatedly that his name would not become public.

But nobody noticed it, or at least brought it forward but Manny?

Like I said in my above post, I don't know all the "Inner" details but if I were Manny, I don't think I'd want my full name known either. Unlike you, I happen to think a lot of money and reputations were lost on this scam being exposed, but that's just my opinion.

Where did I state this?

This is why you can't rationally debate a point on the internet. People just make stuff up. :confused:

To assert he would be in some sort of danger for pointing out pictures on public websites is a bit melodramatic.

What was exposed could potentially cost the forgers tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars. People have been harmed/killed for way less. I'm not trying to be dramatic at all, but many people don't appreciate someone messing with their money; illegally gained or not. I can certainly see his hesitation in giving all of his information.

Right above in the bolded section. The same bolded section I highlighted in my original reply to you.

Some get it some don't I guess, Brendan. :)

I never stated money and reputations were NOT lost by exposing this scam. Of course they were. I just don't believe "Manny" is in danger for doing so. No more so than Chris Williams, Steve Cyrkin and other hobby crusaders who have been exposing these criminals for years.

I'm not going to waste my time reviewing my resume of exposing fakes and forgers over the past 20+ years, but I've done it all under my own name -- Steve Zarelli. And I've never lost a minutes sleep worrying about it.

Dale Irvin, I'm not going to give you anything else to mischaracterize or twist, so I'm out.

Does anybody remember the sitcom "Soap" that ran from 1977 - 1981?

This reminds me of that sitcom....

I have to believe that most of us don't care who the perp is at this time.

We'd just like to be re-assured that something is being done about it.

If the auction houses that sell these items only eat the losses and do nothing else because they don't want to spend the time required to resolve the issue, then that pretty much tells us the state of this hobby.

If I find out that auction houses are doing that and I find out which auction houses have done that, then I WILL NOT BID IN THEIR AUCTIONS ANY MORE. Simple as that. Unfortunately, we couldn't get a united front on that because nobody seems to give a shit....

Yes, I care. This is a hobby that has given me so much

I saw this on Facebook.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...RNzW29ps2fHznE


Looks like SGC is folding their auto business. You have to wonder if it is correlated to the happenings in this thread.

Woah; then the fact that their head auto authenticator is immediately moving to Beckett isn't a great look for Beckett either.

I like SGC but am very happy to see this. I doubt it has anything to do with this thread.

Any move that allows them to focus on the authenticity and integrity of cards seems like a positive one at this point.

+1 unlikely that larry’s departure is related to this story

What impact does this have on the value of SGC authenticated items for the future? Will they be seen as inferior to PSA, JSA, or BAS certified items?

And do they retain any "guaranty" for previously authenticated autos?

Even though anonymous trolls and criminals don't like Beckett, on BO, they are a good company. This is a good move for both SGC and Beckett in my opinion.

I don't think this is a good sign for longevity. Promised changes are not happening fast, and now closing a division of the business and probably laying off staff.

they NEVER should have
 

started auto authenticating before they got their holder/registry/grading issues on CARDS resolved...…….

Unlikely. I believe it is partof their slow demise.

I don’t believe they will be in business 10 years from now.

You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.

I don’t have many unsigned SGC graded cards any more, but the prices on SGC graded T206 cards in last week’s REA did very well, IMHO, surpassing PSA in some cases (e.g., T206 Johnson Portrait PSA 5 vs SGC 5).

Frankly, I think everyone has the same concerns about autograph authenticity whether it be SGC, PSA, JSA, etc.

People won't touch SGC cards? Good to know. Though clearly I've been hallucinating looking at recent auctions.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1952_T...-LOT62449.aspx

Authenticity Issues
 

Hi Jeff, JoeT here and I hope all is well. Just remember, that for every fake autograph, there’s at least one if not more “doctored” cards in a high grade holder. Anyone disagreeing with that is badly fooling themselves.

No doubt. I think the obvious differences are that not only does a trimmed card still have value compared to a fake autograph but the trim job - if unknown - is not presumed fake whereas many autos are.

Authenticity of Cards
 

Agreed Jeff but with either scenario, unfortunately we are talking about outright fraud.

SGC doesn't grade that many cards and they probably weren't grading very many auto's so it is an easy business decision to shut down a line of business that you play a very limited role in the market in and one that you might be taking significant financial risk by doing. It might not have been profitable for them anyways.

I have only dealt with SGC once and felt like the process was smooth and was really happy with how the cards looked in their holders. The problem is the collecting pool is getting smaller and smaller for their cards and there may certainly be segments where the collector base is very solid and perhaps like them more than other third party graders but the general trend is slipping.

It is my understanding at one point recently that they might grade 10,000 cards in a good month. This isn't a very large business and the revenue is probably less than 1.5 million if not lower. I think a lot of people forget how small the third party authentication business really is. PSA has a market share that amounts to total domination of a market and they really don't make that much money. Collectors Universe through June of 18 only made 6.2 million in profit for the fiscal year and around 35% of the company is represented by PSA so we are not talking huge numbers.

I think it is a very real possibility at some point SGC goes away. It might not and I think having choices is better for a market but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. What I think is more likely is they keep maintaining a very small amount of market share and someone out there is making 400k or so a year to operate it and is totally fine with it. It will certainly be interesting.

If they go out of business it is bad for the slabs in general but there are once again probably some areas where the collectors are totally comfortable with what they bought and it won't be an issue at all. I don't collect the older cards so I don't have a real opinion that counts but on newer cards it certainly wouldn't be good for them in most cases.

Sure it has some value but a fraction of the face value based on the flip, so that isn't really much of a difference IMO. And I would guess there are 10 or more trimmed cards in holders for every bad auto or maybe a lot more.

Correct. You must be if you think one or two prices is reflective of a larger sentiment. When you try to sell a card and dealers tell you without looking at it or caring what card it is that they “do not buy sgc cards” thats a big deal.

You also cited a high grade blue chip card to make your singular point. Well played.

Their revenue has to be much higher. Their process is terribly in efficient evident by anyone who has attempted to mail them a submission or submit at a show. If they got rid of half the morons and upped their efficiency profits would go up.

The PSA division of Collectors Universe did $21,065,000 in revenue for 2018 and SGC is a fraction of their size. I think $1,500,000 might be generous and if not it isn't too far off.

That number seems a lot more in line with what I would expect. 10 years max based on the 20 to 1 revenue. If PSA were smart they would buy them out and shut the brand down while they have opportunity.

Beginning of the end...
 

Hopefully the beginning of the end for this poorly run franchise.

If SGC shuts down/gets bought out, I would expect another entrant into the graded card market. It is ripe for a franchise that uses computer vision to grade cards, with more precise and repeatable results. I would not be surprised if that entrant was PWCC, with the way they have been expanding their presence and offerings.

FWIW

PWCC's entire push is "eye appeal" value increases, why would they become a grading company themselves. They'd have to switch their mindset to technical grading parameters again.
And while a whole bunch of people theoretically want computer grading to be a thing and assume the market will react favorably to it, most submitters want 1) uniformity in their collection (PSA set registry, SGC gasket holders, BGS thick protective holders, whatever), 2) more money for their sales, and 3) better grades. Those three companies have amazing "first mover" advantages over any startup, because submitters trust all three of those companies with cards valued at a million dollars apiece. I guess that would be one reason PWCC would be a theoretical entrant: they already have the market's trust.

I've offered this before, but if the highest graded vintage card would only grade an 8.5 due to being compared to modern chrome production (card stock variances, slightly off registration, slight rough cuts, etc), why would anyone send their NM-MT or better cards to this new company doing computer grading? When 90% of your market already has a grader of choice and has sunk costs of all previous grading fees and time spent cultivating their registry, why would anyone send them 1975 commons to make a complete set? I don't see a computer grading company getting traction.

Please raise your hand if you're a dealer who "does not buy SGC cards"

Because collectors are tired of the inaccurate grading, errors, fraud, shifting grading standards and the myriad of problems we talk about here on a daily basis... I would think a new company that would enter the business can create a holder(s) that the collecting community would be happy with.... As a way to gain traction in the industry it wouldn't be to difficult for a new entrant to offer crossover specials to gain customers and loyalty,,,

I agree that with so many millions of cards in so many people's collections, and the registries, and the many dealers profiting handsomely from their PSA affiliations, it would be hugely difficult to make a significant inroads into PSA's market dominance. This was GAI's failure despite the excellence of Mike Baker as a grader, there just wasn't incentive for dealers and collectors to switch, and PSA has had another 16 years to entrench itself and has done a brilliant job of it. And I sure don't see PWCC having any incentive to make waves.

I would guess that most submissions are from dealers and collectors with at least one eye on value, not pure collectors who just want accurate grades.

There are lots and even more collectors, which is partly lots of dealers will not. List two identical cards on Ebay at the same price and see which one garners interest and which gets none, meaning zero interest at all.

Just like there are dealers who wont touch grade A, OC, MK, half grades or cards with paper loss.

There is high price cobb for sale and it has been treated like the black plague for a year, dealers and collectors alike, but those I have talked to say 3 years.

As far as attempting to debunk my comments, I do encourage you at the next shows you go to observe what dealers only have PSA cards in their cases and ask them. That is where you will find the answer to your question.

Agree
 

+1

I sell vintage cards in SGC and PSA holders at every Philly show and at each Chantilly show. I've never had a dealer say they don't buy SGC cards, not once. Buy the card, not the holder.

Plus why would they refuse? They may try to pay less, but like I said above, take a look at the SGC and PSA 6 Matty portraits and the SGC and PSA 5 Johnson portraits in REA last weekend. SGC did better.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...searchin=title

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...searchin=title

707 as best I know is virtually exclusively PSA. I think 4SC is similar.

I didn't pose a question. I've been setting up at shows, including the National for 25 years. I've never heard any dealer decline to purchase a card just because it's in an SGC holder. Undoubtedly many prefer PSA and may even sell only PSA cards, but no rational vendor would walk away from a purchase on which he could make a profit, regardless of the holder.

That idea is certainly worthy of attention.

In most cases it is fair to say their buy price certainly isn't equal.

The last SGC card I bought I paid $56 for and the same grade for the card in a PSA holder would sell for at least $350 or higher. The spread is extremely wide in many cases so coming up with a number that works would be very tough.

PSA is just drastically more popular for most cards.

That's for sure [cough, sputter, stage whisper] DiMaggio card.

Still waiting for a one stop shop TPG/card doctor/AH.

4SC is not. I've purchased SGC cards from them.

Gone... until registration is verified. Generic voice mail not left and PM sent with no response.
Two in one thread, it might be a record. We will see. I hope I come back and say this person verified registration. I am not going to hold my breath though.



.

Any news on the forger? Peter Nash? Manny? Have any more forgeries been found? Can’t let this guy get away with it.

Thanks for the quick chat on the phone. Sounds like you have been around a good while. :)
The updates are . I think the investigation is still ongoing, from a reliable source in the last few days......No idea on Peter Nash but one can only hope he changes his ways. Manny, the OP, has never wanted to verify who he is so he is still gone.
And another member also bit the dust due to registration issues, MichelaTorres83
Yes, I think we all hope the forger is caught.

.

Cue the background Queen music
And another one gone another one gone another one bites the dust...

Any updates? Seems like the Muller probe didn't take this long!

Not to get political but it seems both the Mueller probe and this T206 autograph probe still have legs. I have no new news. I wish the fraudsters in our hobby the worst of luck. I hope they all get what they have coming to them, one way or the other. Karma...

.

I haven’t heard any news either (other than the forger doesn’t seem to have moved to postwar, at least not yet) but I’m not sure two banishments in one thread is a record; I remember a few of Joey Farino’s threads ending with multiple bans, and he was usually one of them.