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-   -   Hey, pennant guys (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=183684)

bocca001 10-26-2022 05:13 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2277495)
Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)

The Oilers I have above is full size, and identical in design to the 5 x 12. As rare as the minis are, the full size ones seem even more rare. I think I've seen the Oilers and the Packers. Fballguy has a pic of a packers fan with one at a Super Bowl. And I think Mark has/had the Steelers. That's all I've seen.

I'd think that the Bills above is older, and not part of the same series. It does not match style wise.

Edited: So, I just found a copy of the Bills mini pennant on Worthpoint. See below. And it has an American Knitwear stamp. So, I guess that answers that for the mini pennants (and their large counterparts). Not sure about Fballguy's Bills pennant.

UKCardGuy 10-26-2022 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocca001 (Post 2277072)
Also found the white sox

That's a really nice pennant. I love the look of it.

Are those Baseball Keezer pennants mini pennants like the football or full size?

ooo-ribay 10-26-2022 06:00 AM

JR has a different Keezer Yankees on ebay than the one shown in Erik’s collage. It’s rough.

Fballguy 10-26-2022 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2277495)
Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)

Yes...Full size. I can send exact measurements and a pic of the stamp when I get home this weekend. I didn't compare the stamp to baseball Keezers I have, but at first glance it looks just like the baseball stamp. Not sure if the stamp evolved over the years.

Marc...Your large Oilers and my Bills have the same stiff non-"felt" tassels.

bocca001 10-26-2022 07:46 AM

That strange tassel material (and sometimes spines) seems to suggest that they came from the same era, probably early 1960s.

Gary- the baseball Keezer ones I have been posting (e.g., White Sox) are full size.

bocca001 10-26-2022 09:18 AM

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These are all stamped American Knitwear. All mini pennants.

Domer05 10-26-2022 08:47 PM

Wow, nice find Marc. Who knew all you had to do was search for "American Knitwear" (rather than Keezer) pennants?

Domer05 10-26-2022 10:05 PM

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That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?

erikc21 10-27-2022 09:57 PM

Hey, pennant guys
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bocca001 (Post 2277463)
Erik- in my opinion, the football Keezer pennants are similar to this Astros pennant (which also has no Keezer stamp). Same materials and layout.

I've also wondered about this very rare Giants mini pennant being Keezer. It shares some features of these others, but is not exactly the same.


I agree - I think the Astros and Oilers may be from the same manufacturer. They look similar to me. I also wonder if the California angels pennant c. late 1965 or c. 1966 is from the same set? In my opinion it could be.

Originally, I didn’t think Rob’s Bills was from the same set since it had no name beneath the mascot, but the LA angels pennant below doesn’t have the team name either, but it is clearly of the same design as the California version. So it could be an earlier version (pre 64 brochure)?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1d862f9d13.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1ab048e188.jpg

erikc21 10-27-2022 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2277815)
That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?


Those two absolutely could be from the same set!

ooo-ribay 10-30-2022 10:32 AM

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Here's another definite Keezer. It's a shame the vast majority of these football Keezers are mini's. :(

rlevy 11-01-2022 02:33 PM

Jackie Robinson barnstorming pennant
 
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Here are a couple photos of my Jackie Robinson 1953-54 barnstorming pennant on display at the Jackie Robinson Museum in NYC. It's displayed right below a 1997 50th anniversary pennant, and right next to a 1949 Welcome Dodgers banner that is high up on my wish list. I haven't made it to see the museum in person yet, buy hopefully will soon. I know several MLB teams have toured the museum when they traveled to NY since it opened.

Rick

Attachment 540939Attachment 540940

thetahat 11-01-2022 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlevy (Post 2279455)
Here are a couple photos of my Jackie Robinson 1953-54 barnstorming pennant on display at the Jackie Robinson Museum in NYC. It's displayed right below a 1997 50th anniversary pennant, and right next to a 1949 Welcome Dodgers banner that is high up on my wish list. I haven't made it to see the museum in person yet, buy hopefully will soon. I know several MLB teams have toured the museum when they traveled to NY since it opened.

Rick

Attachment 540939Attachment 540940

That’s awesome. What a great pennant and the condition is spectacular. Any idea if there is UV protection on that glass or the holder? I only ask because those pennants fade so easily, I can’t imagine there is a more pristine version of that in existence.

rlevy 11-01-2022 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat (Post 2279551)
That’s awesome. What a great pennant and the condition is spectacular. Any idea if there is UV protection on that glass or the holder? I only ask because those pennants fade so easily, I can’t imagine there is a more pristine version of that in existence.

Yes, it’s protected. I would be surprised if any newly constructed major museum didn’t use UV glass these days. I’ve been loaning items to museums for a while now and never had an issue. On the other hand, I have a friend who loaned a baseball glove to the Baseball HOF for 5 years, and the markings on the glove were certainly faded when it was returned. He thought it was displayed in UV glass, but who knows for sure.

Rick

Duluth Eskimo 11-03-2022 06:14 AM

Great stuff Rick. I personally use all LED lights as well. You’re a lot braver than I loaning your stuff out. It’s always great to share, but few people treat our items like we would treat them. I would be worried to no end.

murphusa 11-03-2022 07:38 AM

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The. Choices for a World Series Pennant in Philly are weak

Fballguy 11-03-2022 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphusa (Post 2279960)
The. Choices for a World Series Pennant in Philly are weak

How much do those depreciate once you take them off the rack? 100%?

rlevy 11-03-2022 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo (Post 2279944)
Great stuff Rick. I personally use all LED lights as well. You’re a lot braver than I loaning your stuff out. It’s always great to share, but few people treat our items like we would treat them. I would be worried to no end.

Jason, yeah, I do worry the whole time they are gone that they will return just as they left. I try to deal with major museums only in the hopes they know what they are doing. I have turned down requests when I don't know the organization very well. My biggest concern was when I lent items to Dodger Stadium for their pop-up museum since I knew they used florescent lights and there were a lot of windows. But all of my exhibits had UV filtering acrylic to protect them, and the exhibit was only for a couple of months. I enjoy sharing items from my collection, and I guess that outweighs my concerns for the slight risk they will be damaged in some manner.

Rick

Duluth Eskimo 11-03-2022 12:06 PM

Yeah, I enjoy sharing stuff too. Wish caretakers and historians cared as much as we do.

perezfan 11-03-2022 02:28 PM

Rick, you’re a better man than I.

I won’t even leave a valued piece with a professional framer, in the fear they’ll “f” something up. I must have at least 300 framed pieces, and have done every single one myself. :eek:

Duluth Eskimo 11-04-2022 08:39 PM

Same here Mark.

thetahat 11-06-2022 01:56 PM

Not. Vintage. (Late 70s repro)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26597641274...-uJYQ&LH_BIN=1

thetahat 11-06-2022 07:11 PM

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The mini-version of the pennant pictured below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12558362571...Q&LH_Auction=1

An ugly pennant, for sure. I assumed Ad Flag until recently noticing that the lettering is distinctly WGN.

erikc21 11-06-2022 08:49 PM

Hey, pennant guys
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat (Post 2281175)
The mini-version of the pennant pictured below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12558362571...Q&LH_Auction=1

An ugly pennant, for sure. I assumed Ad Flag until recently noticing that the lettering is distinctly WGN.


Disagree, Greg. I think that’s beautiful! You own the full sized version?

ooo-ribay 11-07-2022 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat (Post 2281099)

That’s Erik’s….

erikc21 11-07-2022 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay (Post 2281274)
That’s Erik’s….


Hmmm, I think Greg’s correct. I am selling about 20 vintage Angels pennants on eBay (a few sold) And his keen eye recognized this one, but the others are all vintage. I’ll adjust the listing. Thx for bringing it up!

thetahat 11-07-2022 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21 (Post 2281287)
Hmmm, I think Greg’s correct. I am selling about 20 vintage Angels pennants on eBay (a few sold) And his keen eye recognized this one, but the others are all vintage. I’ll adjust the listing. Thx for bringing it up!

Hey Erik! Yikes … Didn’t know that was you! That’s a nice batch of Angels pennants you have …

thetahat 11-07-2022 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21 (Post 2281209)
Disagree, Greg. I think that’s beautiful! You own the full sized version?

Yes I got it about 7-8 years ago. The graphic is horrifying. If I hung this in my room as a kid I’d probably have nightmares.

perezfan 11-14-2022 12:16 AM

Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant

mrreality68 11-14-2022 04:45 AM

This is an amazing thread and with over 1.4 million views. Wow

Just wondering is this one of the longest and most viewed threads?

Fballguy 11-14-2022 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2283393)
Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant

I offered to sell him all my late-80s helmet pennants for $50 a piece. That way he could double or triple his money, but no response. If I could get his Browns prices, I'd be posting from an over the water bungalow in Bora Bora full time.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...owns%20pennant

The funny thing is, one of his best pennants, the Philadelphia Athletics, isn't too unreasonably priced (by his standards). I'm surprised he didn't go with 4 digits.

thetahat 11-14-2022 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2283393)
Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant

This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1

I offered him $60, he countered with $2,850. Kinda like a reverse Pawn Stars haggle!

perezfan 11-14-2022 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat (Post 2283510)
This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1

I offered him $60, he countered with $2,850. Kinda like a reverse Pawn Stars haggle!

Thanks for the much needed laugh. I got mine last year for $69 and free shipping. Guess that means mine wasn't a Salesman's Sample. :rolleyes:

perezfan 11-14-2022 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrreality68 (Post 2283414)
This is an amazing thread and with over 1.4 million views. Wow

Just wondering is this one of the longest and most viewed threads?

Yes, it is the most viewed and longest on net54 (by far). Pretty amazing that the biggest thread resides on the Memorabilia side. I think that the distant #2 is the "What's Your Monster Number" thread on the Card side.

Domer05 11-14-2022 10:24 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat (Post 2283510)
This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1

Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.

ooo-ribay 11-15-2022 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2283671)
Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.

Great analysis, Kyle. Even though yellow on black makes no sense for the Red Sox, it is a much more attractive pennant. Maybe if the red one wasn’t faded…

thetahat 11-15-2022 07:47 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2283671)
Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.

Here’s mine, which is an identical copy of the red one in your pic. The one on eBay seems to be a late 40s WGN, based on the spine and tassels. The little flag by the tip appears on other WGNs, there are Tigers pennants with the year written inside. The red versions possibly came later and were maybe copied by another company. The spine, tassels, and stitching are all different from typical WGN pennants.

In light of these findings I’m willing to up my offer … I think $80 is about right. ;)

aelefson 11-17-2022 04:10 PM

4 Attachment(s)
I recently acquired the mid 1970s pennants pictured below. Has anyone seen the 1974 Nets pennant before? In my limited online search attempts, I found ones with no date and ones with a crown, but none with a date and no crown. Unfortunately, mine is missing the tip and has some dirt showing.

Alan

thetahat 11-17-2022 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aelefson (Post 2284572)
I recently acquired the mid 1970s pennants pictured below. Has anyone seen the 1974 Nets pennant before? In my limited online search attempts, I found ones with no date and ones with a crown, but none with a date and no crown. Unfortunately, mine is missing the tip and has some dirt showing.

Alan

Alan I don’t collect hockey or basketball but I do notice them while looking for baseball. I can’t say I’ve ever seen that Nets pennant. Pretty cool!

Domer05 11-17-2022 11:41 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat (Post 2283721)
The little flag by the tip appears on other WGNs, there are Tigers pennants with the year written inside. ;)

I'm not sure WGN made this "ball thru the name" pennant series; but, you're correct about the little flag on the tail-end: it was used on other pennants, like this ca. 1947 Jackie Robinson pennant....

thetahat 11-18-2022 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2284686)
I'm not sure WGN made this "ball thru the name" pennant series; but, you're correct about the little flag on the tail-end: it was used on other pennants, like this ca. 1947 Jackie Robinson pennant....

I think for sure the Red Sox and Jackie pennant are the same maker, the wide spine, stitching, thin tassels are all identical. One of a few reasons why I think they are WGN: the G in Dodgers is a unique style common to known WGNs. Also, the little flag towards the tip can be found on the Larry Doby pennant; that and the Satchel Paige have the common WGN font. I’m guessing that the company had a special run for early Black players, I think there’s one for Luke Easter, too.

perezfan 11-18-2022 06:53 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2283671)
Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.

Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

Other differences include the Cigar Ash, the Hat Brim detail, and the way the hair/sideburn covers his ear. I've always been intrigued by this and own 2 examples of each, though I'd estimate the "smaller whiskers" version outnumbers the other by about 8 to 1. Yet another hobby mystery!

thetahat 11-19-2022 08:19 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2284954)
Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

Other differences include the Cigar Ash, the Hat Brim detail, and the way the hair/sideburn covers his ear. I've always been intrigued by this and own 2 examples of each, though I'd estimate the "smaller whiskers" version outnumbers the other by about 8 to 1. Yet another hobby mystery!

Unsolved Pennant Mysteries, Season 1, Episode 1

Here’s the same bum, in color and with a pimple on his schnoz. Not Trench and possibly not the same company as the other bums you pictured.

Domer05 11-19-2022 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2284954)
Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

!

Mark, I think these variations you've noted may have been unintentional. I think they may have been caused by the normal inconsistencies to be expected during the screen printing process--not necessarily something the graphic artist intended.

As we know, "quality control" was kind of absent when these pennants were being cranked out. Differences in screen mesh counts can alter the level of detail seen in the final product ... changes in humidity will affect the drying process ... lighter colored inks perform differently than darker ones. It's not always possible to make perfect copies, one after the next.

Domer05 11-19-2022 09:43 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat (Post 2284925)
Also, the little flag towards the tip can be found on the Larry Doby pennant; that and the Satchel Paige have the common WGN font. I’m guessing that the company had a special run for early Black players, I think there’s one for Luke Easter, too.

Yup. These do all appear to be by the same maker....

Domer05 11-19-2022 10:50 AM

5 Attachment(s)
More specimens from the "ball thru the name" series, manufactured by the same maker as the Robinson, Paige, and Doby pennants....

perezfan 11-19-2022 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2285106)
Mark, I think these variations you've noted may have been unintentional. I think they may have been caused by the normal inconsistencies to be expected during the screen printing process--not necessarily something the graphic artist intended.

As we know, "quality control" was kind of absent when these pennants were being cranked out. Differences in screen mesh counts can alter the level of detail seen in the final product ... changes in humidity will affect the drying process ... lighter colored inks perform differently than darker ones. It's not always possible to make perfect copies, one after the next.

I think it's a different template. Especially when you look at the Bum's hat brim and hair covering the ear. Too much variance to be a simple inconsistency. Also, there is no "inbetween" exemplar.

And look at the difference in lines between his eyes and eyebrows, all of which are all missing on the second example. These are two distinctively different Bum variations.

thetahat 11-19-2022 02:07 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2285137)
More specimens from the "ball thru the name" series, manufactured by the same maker as the Robinson, Paige, and Doby pennants....

Agreed. And now here’s why I think they are all WGN. It’s the identical freestyle font. Zoom in on Satchel. Now look at how ‘Wrigley Field’ is written on a known WGN. Same dude. A couple more examples are included that show the same writing style in the roster, along with the same structure (identical spine, tassels).

Domer05 11-20-2022 02:33 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Well, if WGN made this "ball thru the name" series, then that would mean they made this ca. 1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant as well....

...which looks nothing like WGN's known pennants from the late 1950s. This one's monochrome and features two pairs of tassels. By the late 1950s, WGN's pennants had no tassels; and, they were experimenting with polychromatic designs featuring a Day Glo color palette.

It's a close call; and I can see the resemblance to WGN; but, I think this series may just be by another maker.

UKCardGuy 11-20-2022 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05 (Post 2285344)
Well, if WGN made this "ball thru the name" series, then that would mean they made this ca. 1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant as well....

I'm not so sure about this statement. The graphics on the two monochrome pennants seem like they're a different style/different artist. The graphics for the ball through the name series have more intricate graphics. The 2 monochrome Dodgers pennants seem to be lower quality graphics.

I agree with Greg that the other Ball through the Name pennants look like WGN but the 2 Dodgers pennants are a different manufacturer.


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