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SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...vereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg 350/460 series subjects In a conversation with David Hall at the National talking T206's, one topic was regarding the recent find of the 350/460 cards with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #30 backs. These cards were never issued in cigarette packs at Factory #30 (NYC). Instead, American Lithographic overprinted them with the Factory #42 stamp and shipped them to Factory #42 (Durham, NC). http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...f42ovpt50x.jpg It's my understanding that these cards in David's set were originally on a sheet. Unfortunately, the owner of this sheet hand-cut them. Anyhow, I was curious and asked David to email me a list of them. And, here is David's list...... 28 Hand-Cut (Not Issued) Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 cards Berger, Heinie Bradley, Bill (With Bat) Burch, Al (Fielding) Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder) Conroy, Wid (With Bat) Crawford, Sam (With Bat) Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing) Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing) Jordan, Tim (Batting) Lajoie, Nap (With Bat) Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball) Leach, Tommy (Bending Over) Leifield, Lefty (Batting) Manning, Rube (Pitching) McQuillan, George (With Bat) Mullin, George (With Bat) Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level) Pelty, Barney (Vertical) Pfeister, Jake (Throwing) Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston) Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat) Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder) Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder) White, Doc (Pitching) Very, very interesting, in that this sheet comprising of these 28 cards coincides exactly with my theory regarding the 28 subjects which I refer to as "Group B" (350/460 series). Group B (350/460 series) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg TED Z . |
Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards. Patrick |
Hi Pat
You may be right. But, Lajoie is on the list David sent me. So, I'll call him about this. TED Z . |
2 Attachment(s)
Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.
Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned: Attachment 282499 Attachment 282500 |
Quote:
Hi Sean Here's my understanding of the timeline regarding Bresnahan. In early 1916, Bresnahan purchased the Toledo Mud Hens (American Association). He played for Toledo until 1918. Therefore, I am not surprised that he is identified with Toledo on a T213-2 card (they were printed 1914 - 1916). And, of course captioned with Toledo on a T213-3 card (which were printed as late as 1919). Does this answer help ? TED Z . |
Yes, that explains it. Bresnahan appears on a T213 Type-2 with Chicago in 1914. He then appears on the Victory, again with Chicago, printed in 1915.
The Type-2 with Bresnahan on Toledo is then printed, apparently in 1916, followed by the Type-3, which was printed in 1919. I didn't realize that the Type-2s were printed as late as 1916. Thanks again Ted. :) |
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David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie). Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source. TED Z . |
Quote:
Hi Kin K. No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards. The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively, have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs. My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs. Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ? TED Z . |
Ted,
The sample size of cards that I've been able to verify and analyze is very small. Sometimes I can't see the back scans to verify that aspect. In the Huggins & Scott auction that ended this week, there was a complete set but only the fronts were pictured. What I've found so far is Mecca 30 backs being the most plentiful. The other three brand/factory combinations have similar numbers. I'm not confident this will hold up, as I've been looking into this for less than two years. Thanks again for your great, informative thread! -kin Quote:
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El Principe de Gales
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DGsgc60x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mont350x13.jpg One of the early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? This thread inspired lot's of brainstorming between Net54ers regarding various aspects of T206 cards. Surveys and new theory's were explored, resulting in 363 posts which you'll find very interesting and informative. The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars. Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...e/aadvepdg.jpg ....http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGbkx25x.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGbkx25x.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGbkx25x.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGbkx25x.jpg To date, there are 284 confirmed T206 cards with the EPDG back.....they are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series. 150/350 Series................83 subjects http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...bsEPDGx25b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ubsEPDGx25.jpg Abbaticchio (brown sleeves) Ball (New York) Bates Beaumont Bender (portrait) Bergen (bat) Bowerman Bradley (portrait) Bresnahan (portrait) M. Brown (portrait) Camnitz (arms folded) Chance (red portrait) Chase (pink portrait) Chase (white cap) Chesbro Cicotte Clarke (portrait) JJ Clarke Coveleski Crandall (no cap) Criger Dahlen (Boston) Harry Davis (A's) Delehanty (Washington) Donlin (seated) Donovan (portrait) Dooin Doolin Durham Evers (portrait) Ewing Ganley Gibson Gilbert Griffith (portrait) Hemphill Herzog (New York) Hinchman (Cleveland) Jennings (portrait) Johnson (portrait) Tom Jones (St Louis) Jordan (portrait) Karger Keeler (portrait) Keeler (bat) Killian (pitching) Kling Konetchy (glove high) Lajoie (throwing) Leach (portrait) Lindaman Lobert Lumley Lundgren (Cubs) Magee (portrait) Marquard (hands at side) McQuillan (ball in hand) Mullin (throwing) O'Leary (portrait) Overall (portrait) Owen Pastorius Powell Ritchey Rucker (portrait) Schaefer (Detroit) Schlei (catching) Seymour (bat) Shaw (St Louis) Shipke Spade Spencer Steinfeldt (portrait) Stovall (portrait) L Tannehill (Washington) Tinker (portrait) Turner Wagner (bat on left) Walsh Weimer Wilhelm (arms at chest) CYoung (portrait) CYoung (bare hand) 350-only Series................102 subjects http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...grenKCx25b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dgrenKCx25.jpg Abbott Anderson Atz Barbeau Barger Batch Beck Bender (trees) Blackburne Bliss Brain Brashear Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Burke Burns Bush Campbell Casey Collins (A's) Collins (Minneapolis) Congalton Cravath Cree Davidson Demmitt (New York) Dineen Joe Doyle (hands over head) Dubuc Dunn (Baltimore) Dunn (Brooklyn) Easterly Egan Evans Fiene (portrait) Fiene (throwing) Flanagan Freeman Fromme Gasper Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Gray Groom Hallman Hannifan Hartsel Hinchman (Toledo) Hoblitzell Hofman Hoffman (Providence) Hulswitt Jackson Kelley Kisinger Kleinow (catching-NY) Knight (bat) Krause (portrait) Kruger Lattimore Lavender Livingstone Lord Lundgren (Kansas City) Maddox Mattern McAleese McCormick McLean Miller (Pittsburg) Milligan Myers (fielding) Nattress Oakes Oberlin Pfeister (seated) Phillippe Purtell Puttman Quillen Rhoades (arm extended) Rhodes Rudolph Schlafly Scott Shannon Sharpe Shaw (Providence) Smith (Buffalo) F. Smith (Chicago) Stanage Stephens Sweeney (Boston) Jesse Tannehill Taylor Thomas Titus White (Buffalo) Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman Six Super-Prints http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eChase25xb.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ueChase25x.jpg Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Cobb (red portrait) Evers (Chicago-yellow sky) Mathewson (dark cap) 350/460 series................56 subjects Ames (hands over head) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Bradley (bat) M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) George Davis (Chicago) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Larry Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Joss (pitching) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake, St. Louis (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifeld (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) Nichols (bat) O'Leary (hands on knees) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Jeff Sweeney Tinker (bat off shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Doc White (Chicago-pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (throwing) Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) CYoung (glove) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGsgc60b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gEPDGsgc60.jpg 460-only Series................37 subjects (COMPLETE) Abbaticchio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (follow thru) Bergen (catching) Bescher (hands over head) Bridwell (portrait-cap) Camnitz (hands over head) Camnitz (arm at side) Chance (bat) Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore Duffy Larry Doyle (portrait) Ford Frill Gandil Geyer Herzog (Boston) Howell (hand on waist) Hummel Lake, St. Louis (ball) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Meyers (portrait) Murray (portrait) Needham Oldring (batting) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schulte (back view) Sheckard (glove) Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on shoulder) Wheat This survey is a work in progress....any new EPDG inputs from you guys are greatly appreciated. Thanx TED Z . |
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