Mastro should've kept the fake Elvis hair and built himself a nice toupee.

Agreed...I'm sure everyone here would've cut the guy a check for 50K on the spot. :rolleyes:

The initial posts about the theft were very suspicious. I also know of one instance, on a significant card, where Doug was apparently able to convince (or told) SGC that a card that was submitted to them was from the Carter collection when it absolutely was not. It was submitted to them long after the Carter collection was sold and was done in an effort to make this card worth more money for the owner, who knowingly went along with the fraud.

I think the point about the $500 garage sale buyer is he is a victim of karma... a illegal thief stealing from a 'legal' thief is not as sympathetic... versus just a regular guy selling cards....moral judgments i guess on that guy... it is interesting that the guy did say 'i only saw 4 of the cards' when i made the offer....which is a moral justification if true...but we all know thats a lie, had to have seen more.. so its his character we have a problem with even though he appears to have been a huge victim of fraud.

I have to say it..but out of all the american greed episodes this one appeared to be one of the worst ones.....if i wasnt into baseball cards i dont know if i would of watched the whole thing...there wasnt any running from the law or big court room drama.....no fake kidnappings for fake deaths......the wagner being trimmed was already discussed a lot on tv shows like espn 30 for 30...also we dont hear any comments from the fraudsters.. we also dont hear that much about the luxurious lifestyles...no siberian tigers in the lawn etc..

+1.

Not taking Mastros side at all here. But the show did not paint Evers as a sympathetic figure and read more like a dude who thinks his perceived gold mine wasn't quite as lucrative as he thought. Which as we know happens in LOTS of deals. I would have liked them to focus more on any proof that Mastro stole cards or improperly listed them to buy them at a fraction of their value (did Mastro bid on and win the original lot?). Only so much they can do in an hour.

I did think the federal agents were very well spoken and seemed to understand the business and how Mastro/Allen subtlety shaved profits out of the industry

Bogus Grade
 

Evers apparently made himself an expert on grading and said that the Aaron rookie was to quote him "pristine." Really? appeared not to have even been holdered in that gold mine box he bought for peanuts.

Just curious...What are the tax implications of a score like that? Turning $500 into $49K. Does the gov't get half? That story inspired me to go tag saling this weekend and I want to be prepared. :)

Never watched American Greed before. Although I know almost all of the story and knew the ending would be anticlimactic, I assume most non-hobby viewers felt the same. I could believe much of the Evers story except I don't know any collector, even new to the hobby, who wouldn't be thumbing through that box and hence some sort of ballpark value. Is it just me or did '58 Topps get more visual airtime than any other card- even the Wagner? Must be those garish colors ;)

It's funny, I actually agree with this 100%. Last week's episode, I believe, was about a couple who blew up a whole neighborhood by rigging a gas leak explosion for the insurance. If I wasn't head over heals for baseball cards, I would have found this episode devoid of relevance or sympathy for any "victims."

Yeah, as a martial arts guy I watched First Blood with back in the day said about the fight scene in the police station, too many right angles. I can't remember the details fully now, but as I recall Greg we both noted some weirdness at the time like the gypsy explanation, and Doug stating confidently the cards would be returned when he could have had no way of knowing and reason would tell you it was highly unlikely (how many thieves return the goods intact?). And then there were some discrepancies between Doug's account and Rob Lifson's account when supposedly the thieves contacted Rob.

As one of those who defended Mastro and company in the early days of Jeff Lichtman's outing of their misdeeds, I have concluded that I owe him an apology. At the time, it seemed unfair to tar them without offering specific proof, but if I had taken the time to look into Jeff's background I would have realized how qualified he was, from several standpoints, to be making those allegations. At any rate, anything that helps clean up the hobby is worthy of plaudits, so good work, Jeff!

+2

I was bored and actually fell asleep with twenty minutes to go. I had to
rewind on the DVR.

Tough crowd. Thought it was great, but I'll watch anything on TV relating to the hobby and starring people I know.

Mastro / Ruth grading
 

Can anyone explain the difference in grading on the Ruth Goudey ?
I am searching for the catalogs that first had it in a group and then was sold separately . Can anyone identify the two different catalogs in question ? I believe the first offer ( by group ) was Dec. 2007 . When was it offered as a PSA 6 as individual lot ?
Again , assuming it was the same card , I've seen no good explanation for the discrepancy in grading ( different companies aside ) .

According to Evers it appeared in an auction 6 months later.

Sigh.
 

Forgive me for what I about to say. Most people won't care, anyway.

What a boring episode of American Greed. I set the DVR and was excited, et al, and literally had to pinch myself to stay awake.

Not only did I not learn anything new about the scandal, but that was just bad television.

CLB

I agree, and we all owe them a ton of gratitude for doing so!

......................and PSA.;)

This is the statement that got me:

"Crime absolutely pays, and it pays a lot"

Also, sign me up. I'll do 2 years in prison for millions!

The main fact that I learned from the episode is that the trimming was done with a standard paper cutter. I figured someone cutting a Honus Wagner would be using a high precision CAM/CAD die cutting machine. I would be shaking like a virgin on prom night cutting that card with a paper cutter

With over 8500 registered members there is going to be every different opinion under the sun. My wife and I watched it. I asked her today at lunch if she thought it was good. She said "yeap". Personally I thought it was great. It was well put together, polished and professional. I just wish the episode was 3-4 hours instead of 1.

.

I thought they did an excellent job with the show, especially since there was really 3 or 4 hours of material to cover and only 1 hour to do it in. That’s the reason it seems like more should have been covered. There simply wasn’t time. I would have liked to have seen a little more focus on Doug Allen, for example. Mark Theotikos literally wasn’t even mentioned. Nothing about John Rogers, either. They also could have talked about how several former Mastro employees who were involved in shady practices there now work for major auction houses. Or the shill bidding list, which outs several board members as shill bidders. So when there’s an entire thread about whether or not PSA got a free pass, I just don’t see it. There simply wasn’t enough time. PSA would have been low on my list of what I wanted to see covered, behind all of the people I just mentioned.

I thought Jeff Lichtman did a great job and I hope more of his detractors will take Hank’s classy lead and give him the credit he deserves. You can still think he’s an asshole, but he deserves a lot of credit for his role in all of this.

Brian Brusokas (FBI) was excellent, but I wish we’d gotten to hear more from him. Many of you will remember him from the National when he spoke at the Net54 dinner. Brian is far too humble to ever acknowledge it, but he was the driving force behind this entire investigation, and without him, Bill Mastro and Doug Allen would still be ripping people off to this very day. The entire hobby owes him a HUGE debt of gratitude for everything he did and continues to do for us. His impact on this hobby has been quietly and anonymously enormous, and all of it for the greater good. Oh, also, he was the only one on the show to pronounce “Honus” correctly. Respect.

I don’t know that Evers guy, but it’s weird to me that everyone is so focused on him. I think he rubbed everyone the wrong way when he bragged about his $500 garage sale score than he “only” got $49,000 for. It was a bad look. Personally, he lost me the minute he said “La-jwahhhhhh” and then said it was the second rarest card in the hobby. It was clear that he’s not one of us. He was just a guy that got a deal on some cards at a garage sale and then tried to sell them with Mastro. But I have no problem with his $500 deal. He didn’t rip the seller off. The seller agreed to sell. That’s how garage sales work. It could have easily been a box of fakes and he'd have been out $500. It shouldn’t matter what he paid, the cards are still the cards, and he still got burned by Mastro. Although, I’m not sure about the Goudey Ruth and how that went down, because it’s not impossible that someone bought it the first time, got it into a PSA holder and then re-consigned it. But I think he was probably right that Mastro kept it in house and re-listed it in the new holder. In a perfect world, the time spent covering that would have gone to more Doug Allen coverage or some of the other things I mentioned earlier. But there’s no 1-hour show that was going to please everybody. I thought it was produced well and really enjoyed it.

I think a lot of people might have missed what I thought was the funniest part of the whole show when Peter Nash made a brief cameo. A classic, perhaps unintentional, easter egg.

Sorry there weren’t enough Siberian tigers and murders to prevent your narcolepsy from taking over. It’s not every day there’s an entire hour of television specifically about our hobby. I guess that’s not entertaining enough for everyone, though.

-Ryan

No narcolepsy here. Maybe I needed to see the 1975 Dave McNally card
being flipped through the card boxes a few more times if they weren't
going to have Siberian tigers or strippers on the poles.

I am glad with the outcome of FBI investigation though!

Tony

Last night, I sat down and watched the episode. If you are not in the hobby that show had to be boring as heck. I agree with others in that there are so many other threads to the episode that given time could have been explored.

I could careless about the garage sale man being purportedly ripped off by Mastro. Who in their right mind would leave a potential gold mine of cards without a full inventory of said box?

Question, do members here believe Mastro made the hobby what it is today?

I think one of the best bits of wisdom on the show was from the reporter:

"There is a greed factor here too, where all of a sudden the cards that my mom put in the basement 35 years ago are suddenly going to allow me to retire and buy an island in the caribbean, and it just doesn't make sense.. right, because at the end of the day these cards are just pieces of cardboard. "

So does everyone believe or assume that auction houses, dealers with large monthly submissions receive special treatment from the grading houses?

Question, at some point (I apologize if this has already occurred), one of the card companies will team up with one of the grading services and insert a redemption card for a certified "10" card. Given that scenario, does the customer still feel a "10" is still possible by purchasing a pack of cards? Do the grading companies take a hit for being in bed with the card companies?

....and don't forget dollar bills are just pieces of paper ;)

Well it sounds easy, but its not an easy decision..lots of factors.

but woudl you do 2 years with a 1% chance of getting killed or worse (yes worse) in prison. People in prison will know that you are about to get millions when you get out. Those people may be low max security, but they may know people on the outside..plus you got to deal with the guards and some low max people are mad max people... those mad max people have a history of knowing how to get money out of people, whatever it takes.

Would you give 2 years away from your thirtys? how about fortys? We dont know how long we will live plus money does come and go. How many millions are we talking about......

I have a stupid, almost off topic question. Did anyone else notice that all of the players in the black & white film footage that was shown had their numbers printed on large squares of paper that were pinned to their uniforms? What's the deal with that?

I noticed that too!
Plus they showed the same scene 3 or 4 times though out the episode

Uni #s: Looked to be footage from an all-star game where they redid the players' usual #s with the batting lineup #s for the game.

Jeff: Great job! Succinctly laid out the issues and explained the consequences of what Mastro did quite well. I was very pleased they left in your summation of the overall impact on the hobby that this bubble of artificially inflated prices had. Do you think that Mastro junked the bidding records because you were on to him and he was afraid of the evidence you might uncover if you sued?

Ryan: Also a great job! You were the humanizing face of this situation. Your story about your passion for the history of the Negro Leagues and your hunts for their cards really gave some insight into why we collectors focus on the things we do. Did anyone catch the email Ryan sent to Doug the Thug with the tag line "F--k you and your threats." Classic!

As far as that Evers fellow goes, as I understood the story (it was a bit convoluted), he brought Mastro a large lot of cards, they gave him a bums' rush on intake, did a poor job selling them and possibly kept some, bought some themselves or through cooperating co-conspirators, then resold with proper lotting and higher graded slabs. Whether he made a killing or not is irrelevant: I have to admit if I was at a garage sale and found a box like that I'd snap it up for as little as I could pay. A willing seller's ignorance is my competitive advantage, because he could have gotten off his ass and researched too. Evers' douchebag personality does not excuse what Mastro did to him: you don't get to rip off someone just because he's a dick, though there is some karmic justice in the story. The real cautionary note here is that if you consign a bunch of stuff you MUST get a detailed inventory signed by the AH and if they won't take the time, go elsewhere. When I consigned a large lot to Heritage a few years ago (over a thousand items) I sat down and did a card by card inventory on a spreadsheet that I printed out. When I met with the Heritage rep, he and I went through line by line, he initialed every page indicating receipt, and only then did I turn over the cards.

Overall, the show was a bit hokey (the narration was campy as a Batman episode; I half expected a Zow! Pow! Bang! before each commercial break) but doing a story on card collecting for a lay audience isn't an easy sell, so you have to dress it up some. One thought I had watching it was just how eccentric collectors are. The time and money and energy we put into this thing of ours must seem so weird to outsiders.

I think you have no clue as to what goes on inside prisons.

It's a bit strange to insiders as well :)

I think you watch too much TV. We're not talking about a state penn. Bill Mastro wasn't dropped into an episode of Oz. He made it out just fine. And with plenty of money to live on.

-Ryan

Right its case by case...hes part of the 99% that it worked out...would you willing to take that 1 out of 100 chance it goes really really bad for you..

[QUOTE=biohazard;1693721]So does everyone believe or assume that auction houses, dealers with large monthly submissions receive special treatment from the grading houses?

Ask Brent Huigens.

[QUOTE=WWG;1693829]LOL AWESOME, that has to be the post of the day.

They clearly said minimum security. Do you know what goes on inside minimum security prisons. He could easily spend $20k just buying people off which isn't even needed in minimum security and it's only a drop in the bucket for what he would have left. Mastro and Dougie need a filthy beating if you ask me and as a shilled bidder I may know someone for the job.

Hats off to Jeffrey Lichtman and Ryan Christoff, two great ambassadors for the hobby! And also to Michael O'Keeffe, who has played such an enormous role in documenting hobby issues at The New York Daily News for so many years, and in the process, by doing so, playing an unsung enormously significant role in promoting positive change. All of these guys at times have been "punching bags" for being outspoken activists, but were always unfazed by being at odds with popular opinions or personal interests of others regarding hobby issues (both relating to Mastro and Legendary Auctions as well as many other hobby issues) over the years. I have no doubt the American Greed producers are very thankful these gentlemen were willing to devote their time to appear in the show. As someone who loves the hobby, I personally am thankful for all their efforts to make the hobby a better and safer place for all.

Ryan, that was a beautiful parting salutation in your email to Mastro Auctions! That was one of many highlights for me! Jeff, you have such incredible insight and knowledge and ability to communicate. I GREATLY appreciate your willingness to so often speak truths that are at times not so well received but so spot-on and valuable. Your great contributions to the field are very under appreciated. There are many others that have made tremendous efforts and contributions to positive change (ironically some that don't always get along, but at the end of the day, are all really on the same page), including Leon L, John M, Peter S, Jay B and, frankly, too many others to name.

I thought the show was GREAT! Was it perfect? No. But, like Ryan said, it's an impossible job to cover all this crime in less than an hour. There is no doubt that (if time allowed) much important additional information and additional stories could have been covered, and there is no doubt that different people (maybe every person) would have included (or excluded) different things, if given the opportunity. I think we have to remember that the show is not really designed or intended to be comprehensive. It's meant to be an introduction to the Mastro Auctions story for the general public. And it's meant to be great entertainment. I think they were very successful on both counts.

Perhaps most important, echoing Ryan Christoff's EXTREMELY accurate sentiments expressed regarding FBI agent Brian Brusokas:

The entire collecting world - each and every collector on Net54, and all collectors NOT on the board (as well as all collectors yet-to-be in the future!) - owe an immeasurable debt of gratitude to SA Brian Brusokas. Once the criminal issues of the field in general, and with reference to Mastro Auctions in particular, hit his desk, he immediately understood the magnitude and significance of addressing the fraud issues at Mastro and the field. Some problems involve easily understood fraud (such as fraud involving fake autographs and memorabilia, and restored or altered cards).

But some of the greatest and costliest fraud in the field was not as easily appreciated, or easy to prove (especially due to intentionally destroyed and doctored bidding records): He understood the importance of addressing Mastro Auctions' rampant shill bidding. The true cost to the public was incalculable. He also understood the great cost of Mastro's common practice of reporting fake sales when their shill bidding back-fired: As detailed on the show by federal prosecutor Steve Grimes, one of the popular methods of fraud by Mastro Auctions was to arrange for items to be put up for auction, and then if they were not bid (or shill bid) high enough, the items would be “won” by a Mastro shill bid account and then secretly returned to the consignor with no charge or commissions. In this way, a fake sale at a desired level is reported, which could actually be used to help as reference (as a market influence or sales tool) for a future sale of the very same item. And if only one real bidder could be drawn in to bid and win at the desired level – voila! – a real (though shill-bid) sale at a shill-bid inflated price that does not reflect the real value and demand for the item.

This may be easy to take for granted now in hindsight, but believe me, getting law enforcement to even understand the concept and costs of shill bidding at all, let alone to take action, was a tall order. No case like this had ever been brought by the government before. FBI Agent Brian Brusokas immediately understood the incredible costs to the public of these shill bidding practices (as so effectively described by Jeffrey Lichtman and others in the American Greed episode), and he worked with prosecutors (who also deserve tremendous appreciation for their efforts) to determine that this was a very serious problem deserving of attention to protect the public. The entire collecting world was being cheated. Mastro Auctions was a ground-breaking case in so many ways. Everyone familiar with or privileged to have special insight into the case knows that its success could not have possibly happened at all without the personal interest and super-human talents of one agent. His extraordinary ability to collect information about and understand all aspects of this complex field, as well as (or better) than even the most seasoned veterans of the industry, was an almost impossible prerequisite for success. Brian Brusokas is that agent. Though I’m sure he had help, ultimately, he made it all happen. And if not for SA Brian Brusokas, almost everyone on this board would still be getting robbed every auction by being shill bid at Mastro auctions.

Well, almost everybody. Jeff...he wouldn't be interested in continuing to place bids at an auction he knew had a "maniac" sitting there waiting to shill bid him up. And Ryan...well, you'd still be banned!

My best to the entire board!

Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Lifson

info@americanainvestments.com

Well said Rob, Ryan, and others.

I thought the show was great. My only hope is that this is the beginning and not the end of investigating corruption in our hobby. There's plenty of others that need to stand behind bars.

jeff

Nope. Gain from the sale of collectibles is a special category of capital gains. Assuming the collectible had been held for more than one year, the gain is taxed at ordinary income rates with a cap of 28%. So if you're in the 15% marginal bracket, the tax on the gain is 15%. If you're in the 33% marginal bracket, your tax is 28%. Note that many states don't distinguish much between sources of income (like MD, where I am), so income is income and there's no special treatment for capital gains.

If the gain is from a quick flip, like Mr Evans apparently, then it's short-term and it's all at ordinary income tax rate with no cap. (Though the highest bracket is currently 39.6%, plus the 3.8% NIIT on investment income.)

Bill

Finally watched it today. I though it was very well done for the maybe 40 minutes of actual content.

I finally saw the show as well and would like to sign on to the compliments paid to Jeff and Ryan.


Mark

American Greed Episode Bonus Clips!
 

I was very surprised to find extra Mastro Auction episode video clips on the American Greed website. These were listed as "web exclusive" videos on the official CNBC American Greed website and obviously represent footage that could have easily made it onto the show but just couldn't make the final cut due to editing and time constraints. There is great commentary and very interesting stories presented by FBI SA Brian Brusokas and former federal prosecutor Steven Grimes in these clips and I thought anyone not aware of them (which I assume is most as I just happened to trip over them by chance and don't recall anyone mentioning) might really like to see them too.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...ke-a-buck.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...nce-faked.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...ally-stop.html

Thanks Rob. More good clips and SA Brusokas unraveling the Mastro/Legendary Fraud scandal.....Too bad those didn't make the show...

A guy who ripped off an old man and turned $500 into $49000 probably should not be going on tv griping that someone cheated him

So which t206 Plank was re-backed?

I believe it was a psa 6.

The re-backed Plank referred to was offered in Mastro Auctions April 22, 2004 sale and sold for $51,519. The PSA certification number was 11731735.

Here is the catalog description:

High Grade 1909-11 T206 White Border Key Rarity - Eddie Plank

Graded EX-MT 6 by PSA, with only three examples in the world graded higher. Of the 26 copies of this card encapsulated by PSA (a total that's only a few more than the hobby's premier service has holdered of the famed T206 Honus Wagner card), the offered specimen is head-and-shoulders above nearly all of them in terms of refinement and preservation. Forever compared to the Wagner in terms of rarity, it can be stated definitively that the white-bordered tobacco insert card of Eddie Plank is the second most valuable baseball card in our hobby. Many theories have been advanced in the ongoing effort to explain its scarcity, but none has ever been proven. We do know that approximately the same number of Planks exist as Wagners, and that very few additional specimens of either Hall of Famer seem poised to surface. The offered example delivers outstanding, radiant quality in its blue-backgrounded portrait illustration. Its caption is clear and undisturbed, and its centering reinforces the viewer's overall impressions of satisfaction and awe. Although corners reflect minor evidence of handling befitting the item's grade, they do not for a moment threaten its superior and warm overall aesthetic. This scarcer-backed version of the sought-after card (with a "Sweet Caporal - 350 subjects" advertisement adorning the reverse instead of the more routine "150" variety) boasts wonderful clarity in its back's discreet red inking and perfectly toned surround. This enviable collectible has combined highly appealing visual elements with the merest vestiges of circulation to provide a marvelous entry for a worthy and advanced T206 assembly. This is an exemplary, EX/MT example of the White Border issue's key Plank rarity (with a center illustration of NM character), and a singular card that merits the admiration of an entire memorabilia industry.

Thx Rob.

By any chance, anyone has pics of that rebacked Plank? That card seems to disappear from the hobby since it last sold from Mastro. Just wonder how good was the reback job.

I'm on my phone sitting in a shoe store in Soho in NY right now while my wife is trying on every single pair of shoes in the store (anyone married, you know how it is) so I can't post it now, but pictures can be found in the catalog and also on pricerealized.com. If no one else posts the images I'll post (or send to someone that knows how to post photos!) when I get home to my computer in a few days.