I’ve been a part of multiple auctions where problems have arisen on the last day (or last minute) where we have either gone forward or ended the lot. That is due to numerous factors pertaining to both the consignor and bidders. Such problems are not fun particularly when your best efforts will get slammed on a public message board - not by the bidders themselves, but some observer who has an agenda of their own.

Mobs create bandwagon bias.

Good guys are not infallible.

Regardless of your view, no one or entity achieves 100% accuracy and success.

If you don’t understand this post, carry on.

Hey Chuck
Thanks for reinforcing my point. I am truly sorry you are so angry. I hope that can change. It is a great hobby but as in anything it is not all positive.

Happy collecting to all

This is from the link provided. What am I missing?
Start: 7/26/2019 12:15 PM EST
End: 8/18/2019 6:00 PM EST

A shout out to REA

At least they didn’t clean (alter???) it, before they sold it.:D

You're dead to me.

Look below, it's from the spring auction.

And his postseason ERA is?

You're not looking in the correct spot

LOTG just concluded a great auction... And to Eric's point, let's look at the positives (which still outweigh the negatives by about a 10 to 1 ratio...)

Leon, that was a tremendous pickup on the Forbes Field Tri-fold PC. Just a stunning piece with great clarity... I might've driven the price up on you, had I not just won something in REA, and was chasing something else in LOTG.

Great pickup at a nice price!

With respect to the E95 Cobb card, while Al did not take the course of action stated on his LOTG web site (pull this card from the auction), I feel that Al took an even more appropriate course of action under the circumstances. I know that if I were one of the bidders on the Cobb card, I would have been much more pleased with the action Al took, instead of ending the auction for this card.

FWIW, LOTG is one of the very few auction houses that I will leave a maximum bid with. Last night, shortly after midnight, I put in a bid on a pricey (for me) card and became the high bidder. Being an old fart who no longer has the stamina to stay awake all night, I put in a max bid a couple of bidding increments higher and went to bed. BTW, I might be wrong, but I think the owner/consignor of this card was Al himself (from his collection); this thought did not give me any qualms about leaving a max bid. When I awoke this morning, I happily saw that I won this card and that my max bid was unnecessary.

This is tongue-in-cheek, I assume, unless I missed the memo that says it's become not OK to clean stuff. I'm a memorabilia guy, and anybody is welcome to clean things before they sell them to me, other than game-used, of course. Lots of different kinds of "cleaning" are well accepted on the card side, right? We are talking about actual cleaning here, getting dirt and other foreign substances off?

In fact, I heard they added some more dirt to it just to be even more honest.

(That too was tongue in cheek)

Just curious.

From the original REA description, it sounds more like rust than grime.

"The offered sign (13.25 x 6 inches) displays heavy surface wear commensurate with its age and former use, including oxidation and small abrasions."

Does distilled water take off rust? If not, what does? I would imagine it would have to be something acidic although I am out of my depth.

Out of your depth Peter. Say it is not so

What was left after the cleaning was the more serious rust.

Some of the rest was probably also rust. Most surface finishes like paint and chrome are slightly porous, and water will get in and cause a bit of rust. Some of the rust appears as loose particles that gets on the surface, and can be cleaned off with water.
Distilled water can have a PH anywhere from 7 which is totally neutral to around 5.6 which is mildly acidic. It depends on how much CO2 the water has absorbed.(and at the 5.6 point, it's not much different from tapwater. )

Personally I'd have dried it with some heat afterwards, like a hairdryer. Then maybe a light wipe with oil or wax to seal it and keep the rust from getting worse. That all depends on the paint. Some paints won't do well with that some almost require it.
Like the old british 3 speed bikes, the paint by now is dried out, and often has a bit of rust showing through. A wipe down with some oil on a paper towel brings it back to almost like new.

Cleaning
 

Who wouldn’t clean the sign ? If it was simply dust and dirt from years of storage or sitting in a barn would most of us not clean it ? Amazing how judgmental we all become when hiding behind a keyboard.

If this hobby is too much for you then get out. Find a hobby with no issues and please share. Especially if it involves collecting.

The answer to your first question is apparently the original consignor to REA.

Ha. I know nothing about this area but find it interesting nonetheless, thus the question and glad Steve has now offered his knowledge and hope others will as well. Might as well try to learn something new.

Am I a bad person if I laughed at this? I went to a Van Gogh exhibit last month and all of the paintings were mint in matching frames. I don't know either. Rob

I laughed at this one
 

Thanks Cb, for keeping us chuckling.
Tim

This thread is amazing. Guy calls out LOTG for doing something they said would never happen then gets attacked, awesome. Then attackers focus on one of the two problems. Completely ignore the real problem and attack and call names for the one that is more accepted in the hobby.:)

Yup! Herd mentality ;)

1. Al is a good guy and runs a good AH.

2. You only need to be on this board a few hours before you realize that the mob response will go along party lines very consistently, much like in the world of politics, sports, pop music fandom, or anything else. How people reach to Brent will differ from Probstein which will differ from Goldin which will vary from . . . . Just how things are done. We know the hobby is rife with fraud, so we create broad groupings of heroes and villains and do away with the grey space in between. The heroes are amazing people beyond reproach. Almost saintly. The villains are ruining everything.

Heroes and Villains. More than just a great Beach Boys song.

I wish Jesse applied the same diligence in rooting out issues to his own consignments as he does to every consignment to LOTG.

Looking past the kvetching and personal agendas, I find this an interesting discussion of a relevant topic: the sometimes fine line between cleaning and alteration. For those who'd care to play, I'd like to see some yes or no answers to the following questions: is the kind of cleaning done in this case, either by consignors or auction houses, acceptable? And if so, must the methods be fully described in the description?

I think the memorabilia/sign guys have weighed in already that cleaning is customarily done on signs and expected and not something one must disclose.

don't start or I really will be angry. :D. You didn't have to watch the guy give up 3 bombs yesterday next to my wife, the Yankee Fan.

Just what I expected, no runs and a pounding.

If that is indeed the consensus, quite a useful piece of information for the AHs and their consignors.

My bigger concern would be if Ryu's magical run is over or if he just had one exceptionally bad outing. He may have set a record this deep into the season for biggest one game ERA increase.

I do not own and operate an auction house that pledged to carefully review all cards under magnification worth over $500 and withdraw any card determined to be altered immediately.

I did not apply any diligence in rooting out LOTG issues. Both were pointed out to me privately by a collector who did not want his or her name associated with the issue. Probably due to the mob mentality around here, and responses like this and the ones above.

The alterations on the E95 and T3 Cobb are quite similar. Something was removed, and the card was damaged in the process. Both received numerical grades afterwards. Regardless of the AH selling, or timing and placement of the disclosure, there were plenty here saying the T3 Cobb did not belong in that 2 holder. PSA agreed. I have not seen anyone say the E95 Cobb doesn't belong in its 3 holder.

I know nothing about the market for tin advertising signs, and what's considered acceptable. I do find it quite interesting that someone was able to clean it using some method that experts around here seem to agree is fine, and add 10k of value in a few months.

Thank you. I just did a quick look and saw the Summer auction dates in the top left and took it to be for the sign.

I very quickly ran thru the thread, but it seems these two posts are the only two that reflect what I thought the OP was pointing out..... I don't believe anyone commented on them.

Just curious - does this same collector point out issues from other auction houses to you?

No kidding! A lot of guys are going to be taking a closer look at their tin signs!

I have had hobby related discussions with many collectors over the years offline, including some regarding issues at various auction houses.

If something like this had happened at any other AH I doubt anyone would have had to point it out to me privately as there would already be a thread created with several posts calling out the hypocrisy.

No, they won't. This is nothing new to the actual people who collect these types of items, with nothing brought forth in this thread surprising or "interesting".

This is my understanding and what I would hope a seller does if I am the buyer. I also do this when I sell something.

I believe it is OK as long as it is fully disclosed that it has been cleaned/restored. Explaining how is not needed IMO. I have cleaned a few signs and I doubt it was just cotton balls and water, not that the method is important if cleaning was disclosed.

So in other words no, he/she does not contact you privately to out issues with any other auction house but LOTG.

please do not project your biased view of a great guy onto everyone else reading this thread. there are plenty of surprising and interesting points. maybe you just do not want to see them.

I have no clue what you're going on about... and I don't think you understood my post. Jessie and Hank were surprised by a sign being cleaned. As I mentioned, I, and others who collect said items, were not. Its no crime to wipe down an item like the sign in question, literally every antique dealer on earth wipes off or cleans their items. Its called being smart, and showing the pieces in their best light. Altering, restoring or using any kind of chemicals, of course its a no no... but again, to people that collect these items, this knowledge is common sense and ancient history. So no, the auction house in question did absolutely nothing wrong.

I think you owe me an apology :D

I suspect the collector who consigned the sign to REA would disagree. Assuming he or she was an actual person who collects these types of items.

Oh, I think the REA consignor will find it most interesting that he appears to have left ten large on the table. I would think REA would find it interesting, also.

Will not fault LOTG
 

A key element of fraud is that the perpetrator tries to ensure that his victim is uninformed or falsely informed. LOTG, from what I can tell, made disclosures in as timely a manner as it could under the circumstances. I believe that it is appropriate to make disclosures, fully and timely whenever possible, and allow the informed buyer/bidder to make an informed judgment about whether or not he/she/they want to bid, retract the bid, or something else. The key here is that the bidders were informed in time to make informed judgments about their bids. Why should the bidders be deprived of the chance to bid on the lot(s) once they were told the updated, more complete information by LOTG? Why should the prospective buyers be deprived of the opportunity to be (and act like) informed buyers? LOTG did what they could; they acted proactively; they did nothing wrong here.

I think that if the apparent restoration to that sign could have been accomplished with nothing but distilled water and cotton balls, both the consignor to REA or REA itself would have performed the restoration or hired someone to do it.

I was "surprised"--where did you get that? I guess you didn't actually read my posts, including this: "I'm a memorabilia guy, and anybody is welcome to clean things before they sell them to me." Everything I said was in support of what was done to the piece. As a memorabilia dealer for many years, I always cleaned my items if they needed it. But since you are the self-styled expert on this matter, please tell me what chemicals are allowed and which are not. A poster mentioned applying oil or wax to "seal" a tin piece. I would call those chemicals, but is this OK?

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself, heck of a transformation there based on the photos. Apparently, we have a true expert on tin signs weighing in now, perhaps he'll tell us whether he thinks that was possible with just a wipe-down.

I rarely post in these type of threads.

On the E95 Cobb, you can clearly see something was erased (it's not trying to be hidden, or deceitful, there's an obvious erasure there). What's also obvious to me, and many others, is that SGC took this into consideration when grading the card. If it did not have that erasure, the card would've safely been a 4-5.

Al (LOTG) is top notch, honest with great integrity. Period.

The problem, though, is that this "obvious" erasure was not mentioned in Al's original description, much less as accounting for the grade. I am sure it was just an oversight but I think it led to there being an issue.

"Well-centered from left to right, ever so slightly low on the canvas, the card exhibits wear consistent with the VG 3 grade, mostly at the corners. The reverse is clean, with very slight surface dirt almost too light to mention."

Thats horseshit, they won't grade a card with and MK or erasure higher than a 1.5.