I’ve been a part of multiple auctions where problems have arisen on the last day (or last minute) where we have either gone forward or ended the lot. That is due to numerous factors pertaining to both the consignor and bidders. Such problems are not fun particularly when your best efforts will get slammed on a public message board - not by the bidders themselves, but some observer who has an agenda of their own.
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Mobs create bandwagon bias.
Good guys are not infallible. Regardless of your view, no one or entity achieves 100% accuracy and success. If you don’t understand this post, carry on. |
Hey Chuck
Thanks for reinforcing my point. I am truly sorry you are so angry. I hope that can change. It is a great hobby but as in anything it is not all positive. Happy collecting to all |
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Start: 7/26/2019 12:15 PM EST End: 8/18/2019 6:00 PM EST |
A shout out to REA
At least they didn’t clean (alter???) it, before they sold it.:D |
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LOTG just concluded a great auction... And to Eric's point, let's look at the positives (which still outweigh the negatives by about a 10 to 1 ratio...)
Leon, that was a tremendous pickup on the Forbes Field Tri-fold PC. Just a stunning piece with great clarity... I might've driven the price up on you, had I not just won something in REA, and was chasing something else in LOTG. Great pickup at a nice price! |
With respect to the E95 Cobb card, while Al did not take the course of action stated on his LOTG web site (pull this card from the auction), I feel that Al took an even more appropriate course of action under the circumstances. I know that if I were one of the bidders on the Cobb card, I would have been much more pleased with the action Al took, instead of ending the auction for this card.
FWIW, LOTG is one of the very few auction houses that I will leave a maximum bid with. Last night, shortly after midnight, I put in a bid on a pricey (for me) card and became the high bidder. Being an old fart who no longer has the stamina to stay awake all night, I put in a max bid a couple of bidding increments higher and went to bed. BTW, I might be wrong, but I think the owner/consignor of this card was Al himself (from his collection); this thought did not give me any qualms about leaving a max bid. When I awoke this morning, I happily saw that I won this card and that my max bid was unnecessary. |
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(That too was tongue in cheek) |
Just curious.
From the original REA description, it sounds more like rust than grime. "The offered sign (13.25 x 6 inches) displays heavy surface wear commensurate with its age and former use, including oxidation and small abrasions." Does distilled water take off rust? If not, what does? I would imagine it would have to be something acidic although I am out of my depth. |
Out of your depth Peter. Say it is not so
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Some of the rest was probably also rust. Most surface finishes like paint and chrome are slightly porous, and water will get in and cause a bit of rust. Some of the rust appears as loose particles that gets on the surface, and can be cleaned off with water. Distilled water can have a PH anywhere from 7 which is totally neutral to around 5.6 which is mildly acidic. It depends on how much CO2 the water has absorbed.(and at the 5.6 point, it's not much different from tapwater. ) Personally I'd have dried it with some heat afterwards, like a hairdryer. Then maybe a light wipe with oil or wax to seal it and keep the rust from getting worse. That all depends on the paint. Some paints won't do well with that some almost require it. Like the old british 3 speed bikes, the paint by now is dried out, and often has a bit of rust showing through. A wipe down with some oil on a paper towel brings it back to almost like new. |
Cleaning
Who wouldn’t clean the sign ? If it was simply dust and dirt from years of storage or sitting in a barn would most of us not clean it ? Amazing how judgmental we all become when hiding behind a keyboard.
If this hobby is too much for you then get out. Find a hobby with no issues and please share. Especially if it involves collecting. |
The answer to your first question is apparently the original consignor to REA.
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I laughed at this one
Thanks Cb, for keeping us chuckling.
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This thread is amazing. Guy calls out LOTG for doing something they said would never happen then gets attacked, awesome. Then attackers focus on one of the two problems. Completely ignore the real problem and attack and call names for the one that is more accepted in the hobby.:)
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1. Al is a good guy and runs a good AH.
2. You only need to be on this board a few hours before you realize that the mob response will go along party lines very consistently, much like in the world of politics, sports, pop music fandom, or anything else. How people reach to Brent will differ from Probstein which will differ from Goldin which will vary from . . . . Just how things are done. We know the hobby is rife with fraud, so we create broad groupings of heroes and villains and do away with the grey space in between. The heroes are amazing people beyond reproach. Almost saintly. The villains are ruining everything. Heroes and Villains. More than just a great Beach Boys song. |
I wish Jesse applied the same diligence in rooting out issues to his own consignments as he does to every consignment to LOTG.
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Looking past the kvetching and personal agendas, I find this an interesting discussion of a relevant topic: the sometimes fine line between cleaning and alteration. For those who'd care to play, I'd like to see some yes or no answers to the following questions: is the kind of cleaning done in this case, either by consignors or auction houses, acceptable? And if so, must the methods be fully described in the description?
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Just what I expected, no runs and a pounding. |
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I did not apply any diligence in rooting out LOTG issues. Both were pointed out to me privately by a collector who did not want his or her name associated with the issue. Probably due to the mob mentality around here, and responses like this and the ones above. The alterations on the E95 and T3 Cobb are quite similar. Something was removed, and the card was damaged in the process. Both received numerical grades afterwards. Regardless of the AH selling, or timing and placement of the disclosure, there were plenty here saying the T3 Cobb did not belong in that 2 holder. PSA agreed. I have not seen anyone say the E95 Cobb doesn't belong in its 3 holder. I know nothing about the market for tin advertising signs, and what's considered acceptable. I do find it quite interesting that someone was able to clean it using some method that experts around here seem to agree is fine, and add 10k of value in a few months. |
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If something like this had happened at any other AH I doubt anyone would have had to point it out to me privately as there would already be a thread created with several posts calling out the hypocrisy. |
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I believe it is OK as long as it is fully disclosed that it has been cleaned/restored. Explaining how is not needed IMO. I have cleaned a few signs and I doubt it was just cotton balls and water, not that the method is important if cleaning was disclosed. |
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I think you owe me an apology :D |
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Will not fault LOTG
A key element of fraud is that the perpetrator tries to ensure that his victim is uninformed or falsely informed. LOTG, from what I can tell, made disclosures in as timely a manner as it could under the circumstances. I believe that it is appropriate to make disclosures, fully and timely whenever possible, and allow the informed buyer/bidder to make an informed judgment about whether or not he/she/they want to bid, retract the bid, or something else. The key here is that the bidders were informed in time to make informed judgments about their bids. Why should the bidders be deprived of the chance to bid on the lot(s) once they were told the updated, more complete information by LOTG? Why should the prospective buyers be deprived of the opportunity to be (and act like) informed buyers? LOTG did what they could; they acted proactively; they did nothing wrong here.
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I rarely post in these type of threads.
On the E95 Cobb, you can clearly see something was erased (it's not trying to be hidden, or deceitful, there's an obvious erasure there). What's also obvious to me, and many others, is that SGC took this into consideration when grading the card. If it did not have that erasure, the card would've safely been a 4-5. Al (LOTG) is top notch, honest with great integrity. Period. |
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"Well-centered from left to right, ever so slightly low on the canvas, the card exhibits wear consistent with the VG 3 grade, mostly at the corners. The reverse is clean, with very slight surface dirt almost too light to mention." |
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