I've seen Leon weigh in on the side of sponsors before certainly, but I don't think I've seen him relegate threads critical of a sponsor to the watercooler before. I am surprised, frankly. I would think Leland's should respond, wherever the thread resides. It's not a good look to be called out and not explain.

I get bashing the company if you want to but why drag the girl in this? I would assume she is doing her job.

She was "dragged" into this? Or was the email that she sent on behalf of the company relevant to the discussion?

And congrats on your very first post, just minutes after you joined Net 54. Amazing that you found this thread first.

Great sleuthing!! Classic. You gotta watch those “Penguin Fans”

I know the very first thing I do when joining a vintage baseball card board is to hit the never-seen, non-vintage baseball card threads.

Just standing 'round the water cooler defending the meek

Some Penguin fan, even that is wrong about the poster, Lemieux22 ????, c'mon....had you gone Lemieux66 then maybe I'd give ya some credibility but 22?.

Sincerely,

Gretzky41

(The Late One)

Claude not Mario.

Claude Leland, not Josh?

Again, nice sleuthing. And where is Leland's located? (that is a rhetorical question).

Bottom line, Lelands charged Steven $200 for insurance that it never procured. I do not believe that is legal; it certainly is not ethical. If they did that to Steven, odds are it was done to others in the auction. And, if it was done in this auction, there is a chance (maybe a likelihood) it was done in prior auctions.

At the very least, I hope other AHs take note of this event and take steps to ensure that they are not overcharging or incorrectly charging winners. There is enough BS in the industry already.

Ryan Hotchkiss

PS -- I dont think I have ever won anything from Lelands (but I have certainly bid in their auctions), and they tend to have very quality stuff. I sincerely hope they fix this and publicly explain the confusion because i do not want to cross another AH off my "will not bid list".

The only explanation I can come up with is that they are charging to self-insure. Basically they are taking the insurance payment and eating the cost if there is a claim. If any claim is paid without hassle I don't have an issue with it, but being upfront about it would probably be a better plan.

For $623 I'd fly my ass there and pick it up myself.

Leland's
 

If Steve spent $60k, that would mean that his item was around $50k, and he paid a 20% BP of around $10k. So, Lelands made $10k on the BP, then tried to gouge him for another $600?

Real classy.

I bought the Ruth D350-3 Standard Biscuit Ruth.

I spoke with three of the big auction houses on Friday and they all gave their support. Each gave me additional information as to the type of guy the owner Josh Evans is and none were surprised and provided me with more stories. I have spoken with two class action attorneys and two more on Monday and then will decide who to engage. The two I spoke with each said if the allegations are true it is outright fraud and they will be liable to everyone they did this to. In additional multiple other Leland clients who suspect they have the same issues have come forward to be apart of this.

I am going to give Lelands until the end of day Monday to clarify anything but from their lack of response it appears they are hoping by banishing this thread to the water cooler section the whole thing will just go away. It won’t. Lelands, here’s your chance to tell your side of the story before this escalates. Looking forward to your version so I can give you an apology.

Just checked my June 2019 Lelands invoice:

Two cards, total cost of cards plus BP: $48,140.40. Shipping and insurance: $718.16.

So Leland's charged me 1.5% of the total for shipping and insurance.

A Feeling....
 

..I have a feeling that an awful lot of popcorn is going to be consumed between now and 5;01 p.m. on Monday....

..

Is this a serious thread and are these 2 posts for real?:confused:

You have no problem paying 20% for the privilege of buying something. Then have the balls to complain about a 1%-1 1/2% shipping and insurance charge.

Thanks for the laugh at 1%er 1st world problems, have a great day gentlemen.

Ben, it’s not the amount that matters. What matters is that they are charging for something they are not giving/the buyer is not receiving. That is theft, or fraud, and/or flat out wrong, regardless of whether it’s $10 or $600 or 20% or 1%. And, the amount is not disclosed! If they said in their rules that they charge 1.5% for shipping, handling, insurance, etc. than it’s abusive but at least it’s disclosed and the buyer knows what they are getting.

PWCC charges extremely silly high rates for shipping, but at least it’s disclosed. Is it right to overcharge? No. But it’s at least better to disclose you are doing it.

I understand it’s hard to sympathize with someone who buys $60k cards. But that does not justify an auction house charging a buyer $200 for something they never procured. Wrong is wrong.

Ben, on Thanksgiving while you were stuffing yourself with turkey and watching football, I was sitting inside a federal prison, inside a locked room, seeing clients. For hours. I’m unaware how that makes me immune from being defrauded. Perhaps Lelands can use that as a legal defense?

comparing a buyer’s premium with an inflated shipping charge is entirely missing the point. bp is stated up front and most people capable of doing fourth grade math factor that in to their bidding. it’s not a penalty. inflated shipping charges are, and in many states they also are illegal. it’s a simple rule not to use shipping as a profit center.

Insurance
 

Once Leland's provides the insurance receipts from Fed-Ex for each buyer that requests it; this should be a moot thread.

If they don't and buyers find out they actually had a third party blanket policy that wasn't disclosed and also considerably marked up...I think there is going to be a problem.

The first response I could imagine is Leland's claiming "this doesn't matter; there is an insurance policy for every item". On the surface that sounds like a reasonable response, however, if 1) a buyer was promised a fed-ex policy; they should get it and 2) would a buyer still purchase a $60,000 card not knowing if the insurance company is reputable and/or if Leland's could/would cover the deficiency if the company didn't pay on a claim?

Disclosure is a good thing....

Jeffery I in no way am saying you don't deserve everything you have. I am looking at it more as a percentage thing. For you shipping and insurance is 1 1/2%, for lazy poor people like myself who only spend a few hundred the percentage is easily 10-20X what you pay.

He also could have easily asked what shipping/insurance would be before he bid. I know it is a PITA but I done it recently on a lot because I knew the shipping/insurance percentage could be WAY more than I would pay, I was right and passed after seeing the price.

Steven was given 3 options, he chose the one he wanted, should be end of story IMHO.

This is an interesting thread and I am also very curious as to why it was moved to the water cooler forum.

In any case, I recently "won" items in 5 recent auctions. This thread has caused me to look at the invoices from each of them.

Love of the Game and Heritage each included a charge for "Shipping and Handling," REA and Lelands each included a charge for "Shipping and Insurance," and Clean Sweep Auctions included charges for "Insurance" and "Shipping and Handling."

The shipping fees represent the following percentages of the winning bid plus BP:

Love of the Game - 1.50% (I "won" 1 lot, a large (35"x28" piece)
Heritage - 2.11% (I "won" 1 lot, a slabbed item)
REA - 0.505% (I "won" 2 lots, an unfolded box and a complete box)
Lelands - 1.85% (I "won" 2 lots, a 10"x14" paper poster, and 10 small tags)
Clean Sweep Auctions - 1.85% (I "won" 3 lots, 2 pictures and a pin)

(Items are included to give an idea of what actual mailing costs might be.)

REA definitely added the least for shipping and insurance than the other four. Interestingly, I couldn't find any information on its website regarding shipping charges. However, the other sites do give information regarding their shipping charges.

Love of the Game - "The actual shipping costs are determined by the*weight*of the package and the method of shipping, and not by its value, with a small amount added to cover the cost of packaging materials. **WE DO NOT CHARGE YOU FOR INSURANCE.**We have a blanket policy that we have to buy, regardless of whether or not you win anything, so we do not think it's fair to make you pay for insurance."

Heritage - "Our fees, shipping, and handling charges include shipping, handling and private carrier insurance. Shipping varies according to the item type, quantity, and value (for insurance purposes). Certain packages may cost more to ship and insure and you may be contacted if there are additional costs after receipt of shipment. All charges are based on shipping within the continental United States, and shipments to other areas will likely incur a higher charge."

Lelands - "You are also responsible for all shipping and handling costs, which includes shipping, packing, labor, materials & insurance. Our shipping rates are industry competitive."

Clean Sweep Auctions - "*Estimated Shipping includes $5.00 minimum shipping charge. When you win more than one item, this fee is only charged once. Estimated Shipping does not include insurance, which is 1% of your total order. Estimated Shipping is discounted for Multiple Lots when lots are the same size. These estimates are for shipping east of the Mississippi. Additional charges apply for shipping to Western states and other countries.
"

Even though LotG says they do not charge for insurance, I seriously doubt it costs $180 to send a 35"x28" advertising piece, so I would bet they did add a 1% insurance charge despite their claim. Heritage, Lelands, and CSA all say upfront that they add insurance, although only CSA says upfront that it is 1%.

Steve, in the end, just be content knowing that Lelands' "shipping rates are industry competitive." :rolleyes:

Ben, while I understand your sentiment, I think it’s unfair. By this logic, Bill Gates would have no right to be upset if someone stole $200 from his wallet. No one deserves to get ripped off, regardless of their financial status. No one’s asking you to feel bad, but vilifying the OP seems misguided.

Agreed. It's not about what was charged, but that a charge occurred for something that was then not delivered on. This is basically what happens in "The Firm."
And count me among the chorus of people who finds it misguided this thread was moved to the Watercooler section.

My guess is it was moved to this section to keep the activity on it low and out of sight.

Obviously Ben the issue isn’t the money as fortunately I am in a position not to have to worry about that. What is the issue is that Lelands basically looked me in the eye and told me the $600+ they were charging for shipping and insurance was quoted directly from FedEx and that they were paying that to insure my package. They then came back as an accommodation for me being such a good customer (I’ve purchased only 2 items in my life from them) they would reduce the charge to $200 and they would incur the rest. The package then arrived and there was no FedEx insurance on it at all.

Besides being pissed that I believe I was blatantly lied to, the bigger question to me is what else is Lelands doing? Are they shill bidding as well? Is it so out of the question after $10,000 was not enough for them to make on an item that they also need to grab another $600? The lawyers tell me we will be able to examine those records as well so this could get very interesting.

No matter how rich or poor someone may be, no one wants to get cheated. Expect for perhaps you Ben. I think if you look at this more clearly and instead of counting my money you possibly could see it differently.

You and Steven can be named plaintiffs. I actually have a case where two brothers are named plaintiffs.

That will be difficult to produce given that Fed Ex has a 1K limit for collectibles.

That's the point...this is going to get ugly.

As the song goes, "How long....has this been going on?"

I think Bowie nailed it...

I would guess that their insurance is through a 3rd party and whole “we purchase insurance for each individual package we ship through Fedex“ can read that way just as much as you want to read it as “we insure our packages through Fedex.” I could be wrong though. You never know. Just from distance though I see a guy who complained about pricing, was given a discount, and within 48 hours is talking about whipping up a lawsuit. That’s not reasonable to me. The discount changes the parameters of the situation and unless I’m presented evidence that they never insure packages they charge for they aren’t guilty of anything other than having high rates. In that case 90% of the houses I deal with are guilty as well. If new evidence is presented then cool, I’ll change my opinion.

If they have 3rd party insurance I doubt they pay separately for each and every item; more logical to me they would have a fixed fee policy. Could be wrong.

And that’s why Steven we’re giving them the opportunity to explain their side of the story before we proceed. Thus far all that has happened is a thread that seems to be quite pertinent to the hobby has been moved to the water cooler section and crickets.

I too checked my invoices

I complained about an 800 4 card lot having a 28 shipping and insurance.

Kelly wrote back

"Hello ted, it is shipping and Insurance I can take a look at it for you."


I think I just paid it, as there is no further correspondence


3/2017
$1275 shipping 50

10/17
$4592 shipping 80

2/19
$850.shipping $28

I believe it was Ace, 1974

Not to be confused with the Amazing Rhythm Aces.

It's starting to feel a little bit as if the hobby is against the collectors these days??? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you?

I never even had a third rate romance with the rhythm aces, but was always drawn toward Clarence “Frogman” Henry. I don’t know why I love him, but I do.:eek::D

I'm usually pretty good on late 50's through 70 bands and singers. I remember very well Third Rate Romance but didn't know of Amazing Rhythm Aces. I see they are from Memphis. I'll ask my softball teammates from Memphis if they are still around.

If I nickle and dimed customers paying 5 and six figures I would be out of business. Poor business practice by the auction houses.

There were so many terrible songs in the 70s it would be hard to rank them. This one is up there for sure. Although it can't top Feelings or You Light Up My Life.

Billy, Don't Be a Hero; The Night Chicago Died; Heaven on the 7th Floor; The Nights The Lights Went Out in Georgia; Me and You and a Dog Named Boo.

Kung Fu Fighting
Muskrat Love
One Tin Soldier

The “hobby” is all about money these days. Collectors are an afterthought.

I liked The Night Chicago Died. You can add Hey Jude and In My Room to my list.

There is no excuse for Leland’s not responding. I have emailed Josh twice with no response. I thought they were better than this.

From Leland's terms and conditions.

Our shipping rates are industry competitive.