This is pretty easy, the only guy in the t206 set with a mustache is titus. So every player in the picture with a stache must be titus. not sure on the clean shaven guys though.

I'm going to take the liberty of applying the above statement to everything I've ever posted here....thank you.

Here's a vote to change this site to "ScottIsRight.com"!

Even I would never claim that I was always right. But I've come to realize that the consensus is that when I AM right, I can be kind of pompous about it.

The only thing worse than that is being wrong and being pompous about it, which I think we are getting an overdose of in this thread.

Context and an assessment of age
 

Charles Comiskey was born in 1859 so he would have twenty years old in the 1879 composite picture; Radbourn in 1854. By the accounts I have read, Comiskey was in Dubuque from c1878-1881. So in these images Comiskey would have been in the 19-22 year old range and Radbourn in the 24-27 year range assuming they were together all of those years. Since it is proffered that both Radbourn and Comiksey are the disputed group image, I would be curious as to reader’s thoughts on if the players identified as Comiskey and Radbourn appear to be 19-22 and 24-27 years old respectively.

A valid question would likely be that if this is in fact of these men during their tenure with the Dubuque Rabbits, do the other players in the photograph appear to be of the same or similar age given the purported context of the image? It is interesting to note that in the composite photograph of the 1879 team, a number of the men feature mustaches. Not that it counts for anything, but it is my opinion that the players in the disputed Dubuque Rabbits photograph appear to younger than what the context of what the image is purported to portray indicates I would expect to see.

Dave Grob
DaveGrob@aol.com

Dave - overall I agree. Note that the owner alleges that the boy below is 20.5 years old. Clearly very unlikely.

He has certainly gotten a lot of the most respected people in the hobby to waste a lot of their valuable time.

Scott - Overall, I agree.

A Beard or mustache will usually take 3-4 weeks.--

Here is a valid question. How old is the person on the left?

3-4 weeks for a full thick mustache on a 20yr old. Yeah, I don't think so. Maybe if he were a wookie.

Here's a valid question. Why are you here? Waaaaay back in the first thread, you stated you came looking for advice. You have gotten all the same advice from some of the smartest and most experienced hobby veterans, including the man considered THE expert on facial recognition, yet you still refuse to believe the evidence provided. You have wasted countless of our hours reading and replying to your inane nonsense. You try to come up with an answer to every piece of evidence and your answers make no sense. We have been trying to help you understand that your identification is incorrect. You refuse to believe it.
So again I have to ask, why are you still here? Nothing, and I really do mean nothing, you can say or show will refute the evidence that has already been presented. No one here will believe you and, fortunately, for the uneducated masses of sports memorabilia enthusiasts, no auction house of any repute will ever accept your photo for what you claim it to be.

Edit: I am not asking this question sarcastically. I really would like to know what you hope to accomplish by continuing. No one has agreed with any of your assertions, so my question is why continue the same argument?

Understanding Context
 

In response to your question about how old the person on the left is, I won’t venture a guess as it is not germane to the point I apparently failed to properly make or express in manner that was understandable. My apologies to you and the other readers for that. My post was about looking at the image with through the filters of context. Here we have the filters of age and the fact that these men are professional baseball players. Both the labeled 1879 Dubuque Rabbits photograph and the composite are proffered as being the same group of men from the same time frame.

Since there is single date offered (1879) as the basis of analysis, we can make observations based on the known age at the time of individuals and the group as a whole. We can also make observations that are contextual since these men (group or composite photograph) are then proffered to be the same group of professional baseball players. Using 1879 we can then state the men are:

Charles Comiskey: 20
Charles Radbourn: 25
Bill Gleason: 20
Tom Sullivan: 19
L.P. Reis: 21
Tom Loftus: 23
Jack Gleason: 25

Since the composite photo is used as the basis for comparative analysis to the offered photo of the 1879 Dubuque Rabbits, then you are left to decide if the players in the disputed photograph appear to be the same age as those in the composite, measured against the backdrop of what we know their ages to be at the common point of reference (1879).

Please know that my previous post and this one as well was intended to provide some thoughts on context as well as ways or metrics that can be used as perspective for the analysis and subsequent observations that you or anyone else might make. What conclusions individuals draw from using this information and/or protocols is up to them, be it for this issue or those in the future.

Dave Grob
Dave Grob1@aol.com

.

Guys, I know you are busy analyzing the studs in Directly's photo, but you absolutely won't believe who these guys are. I will let you ponder for a while, then I will post their names.

Front right is David Thelwis

Back middle is Herman Munster

Nice try, Grasshopper, but it is actually.....wait for it





Charles Comiskey!!!!

Notice that the man in my cabinet photo is clearly looking in EXACTLY the same direction as Charles Comiskey on the right. What are the odds?

And there won't be any 'ear' arguments with this guy.

The nose? Clearly a nose is going to begin drooping as the years pass. My calculations show that the amount of elongation of Comiskey's nose is absolutely perfect for his age.

Looks like the manager was one second short in getting the bunny ears up on the player sitting in front of him...

One guy has a hat. The other guy has no hat.

Can't be the same guy.

The guy in the back row alllll the way on the right looks a bit like Chest Rockwell to me.

Graig

Well, I was certain I knew who 7 of these guys were, but after talking with the g-g-g-g-nephews of 3 of them, and the g-g-g-g-granddaughters of 4 others, none of who ever saw any of the players I thought were in the picture...isn't that weird? ....I'm having to re-assess my thinking.

After I get through 'lip matching' them against other possibilities, I'll update this post.

(But the guy who looks like Theulis REALLY is Comiskey)

Breshnan with the mask?

I think you're right because that's definitely Brock Landers back row left.

Quote: Dave Grob: Please know that my previous post and this one as well was intended to provide some thoughts on context as well as ways or metrics that can be used as perspective for the analysis and subsequent observations that you or anyone else might make. What conclusions individuals draw from using this information and/or protocols is up to them, be it for this issue or those in the future.



Dave, Thanks for the input. I appreciate your thought! I assume you will be the author in the future SABR article. Finally someone that will use context as well as ways or metrics that can be used as perspective for the analysis and subsequent observations that one might make. The conclusions one draws from this information is up to them.

I agree with you, my Charles Comiskey must be fully analyzed, more toward a Point type system.

Your statement makes perfect sense to allow a one ear example for any positive conclusion, is definitely not the use of context or metrics for a complete analysis.

That's funny. The "context" that Dave Grob pointed out was that of a professional minor league team c1879. He pointed out 2 metrics within that context.

1) First metric - Players' ages. Do the players in your photo appear to be the right age for a professional minor league team (Dave actually listed the ages of some of the players you claim are in your photo). The answer is no, the boys in your photo appear to be way too young.

2) The second metric was mustache frequency for an 1879 professional minor league team. Not one player in your photo has a mustache. What are the chances of that? I'll give you a good estimate.

Let's say that just 1/2 of minor league players in 1879 had mustaches (I think it is actually more, but let's be conservative), the odds of having 9 players with no mustaches is 1/2 raised to the 9th power - the same as doing 9 coin flips and having them all come out heads. This comes out to about 1 in 500. That alone makes your entire claim about your photo highly unlikely.

Add to that the fact the the only verified actual Dubuque 1879 photo shows 7 of 10 players with mustaches - a critical point you clearly did not understand based on your earlier response. How fast one could grow a mustache has nothing to do with this. Most of the boys in your photo were probably too young to grow a mustache - that's why you don't see any.

Lastly there is no "point system" for comparing faces in photos - you'll have to invent your own. You can start with your claimed 1879 Radbourn (below center) - on his left is the real Radbourn c1875 (from HoF), on his right is the real Radbourn 1882. How many "points" would you give your guy?

[note to Scott F., - be nice, I enjoyed creating this post]

There continues to be some confusion with the information I have been providing. I am NOT advocating ANY sort of “point system” for the evaluation of photographs. To be perfectly honest, I have never been a fan of point systems or the assigning of numerical grades to artifacts and memorabilia. The graphic I provided on Facial Reference (FR) and Context Reference (CR) is nothing more than a tool that facilitates the visual representation of various degrees of certainty that a person might have in their opinion when using the screening criteria of FR and CR. It also serves the purposes of highlighting these two areas, thus permitting someone to see the particular strengths or weaknesses in any argument or counterargument on the subject at hand. Please notice that the graph shows ranges and degrees from Low to High.

The use of numbers only serves the purpose of allowing folks to have a discussion using a common vocabulary or point of reference as they discuss what quadrant they feel their analysis and assessment might best fit in and why.

It is and was NEVER intended to be used as some device or protocol that says if you get “x” number of points, then the photograph is what is purported to be. I simply offered a tool that I think has merit in allowing individuals make and defend objective and informed assessments. Nothing more than that. All I am attempting to do (and it appears not very well) is to share information and protocols that I have used or leveraged over the past 20+ years as an intelligence analyst that might have utility in the area of evaluating memorabilia and answering questions about artifacts.

I am also not the author of the forthcoming SABR article. In the future, when time permits, I do plan on writing a piece that details the use of a grid system to facilitate facial recognition.



Dave Grob
Dave Grob1@aol.com

I have no idea. But I really want to know the identity of the perhaps now "missing" member of the team who got all of them with the old "look I cut your tie instead of doing a magic trick" gag.

Steve B

Dave, there isn't any confusion - 'Directly' is twisting your words, and those of others, as he sees fit. I have no idea what he is attempting to accomplish, but maybe it amuses him.

Dave,
To echo what Scott said, I don't think there is really any confusion about what you posted. I think it was very clear as to what your point is. I think even the OP understood it.

Though the OP didn't answer my question as to what he hopes to accomplish by continuing this conversation, I do have an idea. I think his goal is to twist the logic and rationale presented by the board to create the appearance that we agree with his assertions. He is hoping that we won't follow up with a comment clarifying our position so as to clearly state that we are not agreeing with him, like you did above, so that he can go to seller or AH using our words. I can see no other logical reason for him continuing this.

He's just throwing Hail Marys at this point. Any auction house that took this item would immediately be ostracized by everyone in the collecting world.

Two words
Coaches corner.

Econteachert----Two words Coaches corner


Two words; Charlie Sheen. ( This type ultra-high level collector )

Comiskey did reside in Dubuque for around four years between the age a 19-22. The photographer was in business while Comiskey played baseball there, then left to play baseball in St Louis. One hundred years later this Dubuque baseball team photograph was found in St Louis.

I have been advised to focus and concentrate with the Comiskey image. Because he is the real bread and butter, value and importance of my Dubuque photo. No one cares about Alveretta or Reis. Radbourn would be a bonus. Also SABR will be a good forum for my photo.

I have heard the mustache theory before, sorry I can't locate any photograph of Comiskey with mustache.

The age theory: I presented two photographs comparing my Comiskey with another person-. Could the person on the left be forty years old?--So although a good thought the age theory just doesn't hold water with my Comiskey image.

Great - you are finally admitting that you can only sell this through a disreputable auction house, or to an idiot with a lot of money.

It's good that you have finally come around.

Not sure it is even worth mentioning at this point, but dismissing the other players in the photograph and focusing on the one thought to be Charles Comiskey does not address the contextual aspects of analysis. If the thought is that these other players don’t matter and may not be the members of the Dubuque Rabbits as first thought, then who are they and why would the proffered Comiskey have been photographed with them? From a logic and analytical standpoint, if you espouse merit in the concept of contextual analysis as part of this process (which I believe you have), then you can’t forego it as part of your assessment and return myopically to a reliance on facial references only, and then for only one person in a group photograph. To do so is tantamount to rejecting the value of contextual analysis.

Please know this and my other posts are about my interests in process/protocols and not product (this particular photograph). Unless someone has any questions about process and protocols, I think I have reached my saturation point with this thread.

Dave Grob
DaveGrob1@aol.com

Dave from someone that's hopes they learned something from you wonderful posts in this thread Thank you for the info Sir.

If you can't support your other IDs, and for example apply your "point system" to "Radbourn", why would anyone think you're right about Comiskey? And as Dave said, why would Comiskey be there if the others were not?

You don't understand the mustache theory (nor anything else), no one expects to see Comiskey with a mustache

Dave, thank you so much for your valuable insight. - In my opinion by just two short paragraphs you solved the mystery about my Dubuque photograph more than all of us put together X 100---everything you said is completely relevant and true to my photograph-- it hit me after reading your articles and thinking about what you are saying it suddenly became very clear to me, everything you wrote should be in a future SABR article-thanks, Tom

Trolling behavior.

Dave's input didn't imply to me my player can't possibly be Comiskey. He did point out Comiskey played baseball in Dubuque for four years, (the Comiskey age factor of 19-22). Comiskey did in truth play baseball with several different Dubuque baseball teams and ball players during those four years. So in truth the photograph could have been produced within any of those four years 1878, 1879, 1880 up to 1881. In fact the Rabbits team toward the end of 1881 was made up of anyone who wanted to play baseball.

So in retrospect Comiskey might had my photo taken with several different teammates within those four years!


I may someday take my Dubuque photo either to the Chicago Sun-times show or the National. thanks so far to the forum, members and readers for their patience.

Holy crap.
How dense are you?
You will say anything you can to prove it is what you think it is.

For the last time...
1) The team doesn't match therefore the context of a Dubuque team is gone. There is nothing in the photo to suggest it is from Dubuque.

2) The face doesn't match Comiskey.

It isn't Comiskey.

Two more hammer hits and I think you'll have it.

(I realize you edited out the word "hammer", but I think you got it right the first time)

Question: Why does one item after another from this particular seller/source have recent notations that were added, presumably to enhance value? It seems like there is a distinct pattern here to deceive.

Yup :rolleyes:

Haven't looked at this thread for a few
days. Amazing that this discussion continues.

if you have to work really hard to convince yourself that something is what you hope it would be,

how hard do you have to work to convince some one else that it is?

or put another way

what a f'in a**hole I am for believing this story and spending the money for this that now I need to find another a**hole to buy it from me

Same or me. Entertaining, no doubt.

A Legitimate 1913 Liberty Nickel is Condemned as a Fake?--here is the article:

George Walton was killed in a car accident heading to a 1962 coin show supposedly with his 1913 Nickel.

There was much speculation about the whereabouts of the coin. Some people were certain that someone had stolen it, while others felt it had been lost at the scene. Apparently Walton's heirs never clarified matters. They had found a 1913 Liberty Head Nickel in Walton's effects at home following his death, and taken it to a leading numismatic firm for authentication. The experts at this firm condemned the coin as a fake (stating that it was a genuine coin which had been altered.) Following this news, the Walton heirs kept quiet about things and for forty years, nobody knew what had ever happened to the Walton specimen.

By this time, the Walton heirs had seen many photos of the other genuine 1913 Liberty Nickels, thanks to the Internet. Careful comparisons had been made, and they became convinced that their coin was worth another look, perhaps by a different expert. Imagine the stunned surprise when a Walton family member showed up at that 2003 World's Fair of Money to have their specimen examined! At least SIX different world-class experts examined the Walton coin, and they unanimously agreed that the coin was genuine! The lost 1913 Liberty Nickel had been found!

When I sent my photo to the Museum's, HOF and others, all I ask the photo be saved in their computer system for historian studies.

If some can't understand, then some are not collectors. I have owned the photo for 25 years--another 15 years is OK with me!

So - what happened to all the other names you had for such a long time on your photo? On 9-25 you changed Rowe to Laurie Reis and Cliff Carroll to Alveretta. I thought you stand by your "insight without reservation." And now, you've taken all the names away except Comiskey. If you won't stand by your previous IDs, why should anyone think you have any idea as to how as to ID Comiskey?

Your bogus "Reis" is below left. The real Reis from the 1878 Chi NL composite is below center, and Reis from the actual 1879 Dubuque photo is below right. So, it appears that in 1878 and 1879 the real Reis had curly hair (and an inconvenient mustache). I guess for your photo he must have had his hair straightened. He also had a very different skull and jaw geometry compared to your photo.

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Why are you bothering?????????

For one, because it's clear that Directly is intent on having his own faulty summary, complete with photo labeled the way HE wants it to appear, be the final post in this thread, probably hoping that whoever happens upon this thread later will see how incredibly long it is, skip ahead to the end, and accept his faulty summary as the real conclusion of the matter.

This whole thing is less like a single expert telling you that your prized rare nickel is a fake, and more like a panel of experts advising you that it is in fact a quarter.

This is exactly why, despite the fact that I think attempting to convince him is a waste of time, I have continued to reply.
He is clearly trying to manipulate the wording of posts in this, and the previous thread, to create the appearance that the people here agree with him. It is apparent, if you read either thread that no one, who has posted a reply, even remotely agrees with him.

The fact that he WANTS the kid in the photo to be Comiskey is clear. The fact that it ISN'T Comiskey has been proven over and over again. This should also be very clear.