The concept is potentially good for the right person. ie investors. Also many like it so that you can take a loan against it (in some cases) for extra funds
Other auction houses are trying to duplicate this basic concept.
But I am more a collector and would prefer to have the cards under my control and more accessible.
Also since I am not comfortable in general with PWCC reputation it just makes me pause.
In addition the time it can take to get the card processed in and out of their vault also concerns me(as mentioned above in the thread)

So I am sure this service is right for many people and all well and good but it is just not for me

And that is why I specifically mentioned the purchase of the new living room set just before you move, and presumably just after you purchased the house in the new state. To show differences in the circumstances and how there isn't always a simple, straightforward answer to a question like this.

Here's another way to look at this though. Say you have a house and live in a state with a sales tax, but also own a second home (vacation home) in a state without sales tax. And all the furnishings and belongings in the vacation home were purchased in that state so no sales taxes were paid on any of the belongings and furnishings in it. And then after years of owning the vacation home you had to sell it, and end up moving all the furnishings and belongings in it back to your main home in a state with sales and use taxes. Do you now owe use tax on everything you brought back to your main home and state you officially reside in, even if items you brought back were originally purchased years, or even decades, ago? See how this can get confusing?

I bring up the concept of a time threshhold because though most states don't generally have any actually written into their sales and use tax laws, there are specific instances where such a time threshhold can exist in some circumstances. Say in my example the main house was in California and the vacation home in Oregon, which is where PWCC and their vault is, with no sales taxes. And in addition to all the belongings and furnishings in the vacation home being purchased in Oregon without sales taxes, the owner had purchased a car that is licensed, registered and been kept at the Oregon property also. So no sales tax was paid on it either. And again, for whatever reason, the Oregon vacation home is sold and everything is moved back to the main residence in California, including the car. Now California sales tax laws say nothing specific in this case about potential use tax owed on the furnishings and other belongings, but they do have very specific rules regarding the car. In this case, if the car had been originally purchased in Oregon less than one year ago before now moving it to California, the owner owes sales tax to California in the amount of whatever the sales tax would have been had the owner originally purchased the car in Calfornia, less the actual sales tax originally paid when the car was actually purchased in Oregon. And in this case since Oregon has no sales tax, California is owed sales tax on the original sales price, in full. However, if the car had been purchased one year or more before moving it from Oregon to California, then under California law the car is now exempt from sales and use taxes entirely, and the car owner owes $0 to California for sales/use tax.

And this is what I mean about a possible implied time threshhold for the exemption from use tax for property being brought into a state. In this case, if California is going to exempt sales/use tax charged on a car purchased more than a year before moving it to CA, you would assume and expect that they would at least give the same time period threshhold for exemption from sales/use tax for all other property being brought into the state, such as furnishings and other belongings. But since nothing is specifically written in CA sales and use law like this exemption for property other than vehicles, I would advise checking with a tax professional familiar with CA sales and use tax laws, and even contacting the appropriate CA taxing authority to see if they can provide further guidance on a potential time threshhold for use tax exeption of other property being brought into the state.

Now this example and rule regarding cars is specically just for California. You would want to look into and review the sales and use tax laws in whatever state you would be moving property to, to see if you can find similar instances like CA where they specify a time threshhold for a use tax exemption, and likewise contact a tax professional knowledgeable in that particular state, as well as actually contacting the appropriate state taxing authority for additional insight and to see what they can tell you about possible time threshholds for use tax exemption.

So at the end of the day, items you put into a sales tax-free vault may be removable at some point without triggering use tax. But, you need to research it and look into the sales and use tax laws of the applicable state(s) involved.

Clear as mud, right? Welcome to the world of taxes, and in this case specifically state sales tax law.

Right you are Jeff. I didn't even get into the loan aspect of what they are offering, that is a whole other kettle of fish. But you're correct, the PWCC vault concept and how they are presenting and handling things, is akin to working with an investment advisory firm that holds your investments for you, assists in sales and purchases, and even gives out margin loans. About the only thing they don't do, at least not yet, is have you just open an account with them in which you simply deposit money, and then they go out and acquire cards for you that they feel will be good investments and grow in value for you down the road. I think if they did start doing that though, they may cross a line where they could possibly be viewed as a form of bona fide investment advisor, and actually become subject to all the applicable federal and state laws, licensing and the myriad of rules and regulations that have to be followed. Which I seriously doubt they would want to do, at least not now.

Who knows down the road though? They clearly are smart and ahead of the game in realizing that our wonderful little hobby has gone from being just that, a simple hobby, to a booming industry with surging prices that have caught and grabbed ahold of the attention and interest of serious people in the investment industry. They've set themselves up to be at the forefront of this change from being a pure hobby to more of a serious investment vehicle. Just look at some of the threads we've had recently talking about a potential IPO by Topps, which was undermind by strategic investments of various professional sports leagues and player groups in a major distribution company which then apparently stole future licensing rights right out of the hands of Topps and other card companies. Or the takeover and privatization of the major TPG of our hobby, quickly followed by the announcement of their acquisition of another company heavy into AI technology. Heck, we're starting to read like the Wall Street Journal in some threads. The only thing we're still missing is for Warren Buffet to come out during Berkshire-Hathaway's next annual meeting and declare they're going to start heavily investing in sports cards. And if Buffet were to go even further and expand on how they'll focus on acquiring cards of who he felt was the greatest pre-war baseball player ever, and didn't name Ruth............I can only imagine the thread(s) that would generate on this forum!!!!!!!! :D

PWCC responded to my inquiry. This is what they said regarding the discrepancy between the emailed invoices and the website hammer prices at checkout.

This is definitely not correct though. I went into a bidding war on a 1953 Topps willie mays card that was at $2k when extended bidding started. We bid it up multiple times after that, and the card was extended into multiple future time windows. My max bid on the card was set at $2800, which is what it shows at checkout. I took the bidding lead at $2700 and then placed a $2800 max bid after that as a blocker bid. Then the auction ended. I don't know if someone bid me up to $2800 or not, but I do know that the website showed $2800 at the last second after I thought I had it at $2700. My emailed invoice shows $2700 though, not $2,000 which is where it was at when extended bidding started. But at checkout and on the website it shows $2800.

For waht it's worth
 

I won a lot of cards the past two nights from PWCC and am bidding on a dozen more tonight. I believe their platform is very slow, and not the most use friendly. That said, eBay may be faster, but PWCC customer service is way better IMO. Hands down. Now I will be looking over that final invoice very carefully.

Bummed as I lost out on the '55 Jackie Robinson 8. And by only one increment. Rats!

Damn. That was a nice looking card too. I was watching that one.

You guys are making this tax thing way too complicated. The PWCC vault is in Oregon which has 0% sales tax and that is why PWCC is promoting the vault as a way not to pay sales tax. If you elect to to have your cards shipped to your home state and your state does have sales/use tax then PWCC (seller) is obligated to collect the sales tax for your state and remit it to that state's Department of Revenue. If for whatever reason PWCC does not collect the sales tax (which I highly doubt they would) then you (buyer) are obligated to self report any tax owed on either monthly or quarterly basis.

This is not complicated folks.

That is a moot point if you are a business and have a valid resale cert.

As an update.

My items have been curated into the Vault, I was given a quick tutorial on how to request be sent to me, which was easy to do. Then when I encountered Vault fees(all of $6.25) and some extra shipping due to insured value, which was correct but much higher than my winnings bids, due to the fact I got the cards well below value. They then waived these vault charges and extra insurance and I was back to the original amount and the cards will be shipped very shortly.

As others have said their customer service is on an extremely high level!

So, this all worked out.

I'm shocked at the number of Net54 members still willing to deal with PWCC.

Just kidding...no I'm not.

Really?!?!?

So it makes no difference if you leave something in their vault for several years before then asking them to return the item to you? What if you left it there in their vault for over ten years before asking that it be returned? Or what if the item is in their vault for several years and instead of you asking them to return it to you, they go out of business and just ship everything back to you at your home address?

Or how about this, you have an item in their vault and go to sell it, but decide to use a different seller/AH to list and sell it for you. So you have PWCC ship the item directly to your AH of choice, that just so happens to be in a different state than the one you live in. Do you now owe a use tax in the state you live in, even though the item is never shipped to and physically in your state of residence? Or do you possibly now owe a use tax to the state where the AH that is selling it for you is located, even though it will only be there for a short period of time while the AH completes the sale for you?

And for another possible twist, what if you lived in one state when you originally purchased an item that went right into their vault, and a year or two later asked them to now return the item to you. But during the time the item was in their vault you moved to a different state that also had sales and use taxes? Do you have to report and pay the use tax to the state you no longer live in since that was where you were living at the time you originally bought the item and put it into the vault, or do you now owe use tax to the state you had moved to, even though you didn't live in that state when the item was originally purchased?

And now here is the real ass-kicker question. Is the answer to each of these questions I just posed above going to be EXACTLY THE SAME in all 45 U.S. states that impose sales and use taxes on items being purchased?

And for the record, use taxes are not necessarily always reported and paid on a monthly or quarterly filing basis. For example, in Ohio there is a line item on the state's annual individual income tax return where an individual taxpayer (or jointly filing couple) can report any use tax owed on purchases from the prior calendar year. Any such use tax due and reported will then either increase the amount of Ohio income taxes owed, or decrease the state income tax refund that would otherwise be received.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, think twice, even three times, and then still don't make simplified posts with generalized statements in regards to taxes, especially concerning state taxes where the laws and rules can vary in every single state, unless you truly know what you're talking about. Otherwise, all you're doing is putting conflicting information out there that someone else on this forum that doesn't know any better may read and erroneously follow. I thought one of the basic tenets of this forum was to try and help and educate each other. That is simply what I was trying to do for anyone on here who already had items in either PWCC's or Goldin's vault, or was thinking about putting things in their vaults sometime in the future.

At least you are now positive that they can see the max bids.

I think the glitching happened when, during extended bidding, the item was bid up to a previously made max bid.

Example. Card was at $180. I bid $200. Someone comes in during extended and bids $200. I win auction because I bid $200 first.

I got email saying $190 was tots on one like that. Invoice showed the proper $200 when looking now. Waiting to pay and have them shipped to me (which is very easy so I’m not sure what you guys are talking about with being unable to do so) until all weeks auctions are done.

Not being a vault fan, and a collector... if I wanted to win a auction and then have nothing in hand, I'd bid on an NFT.

Question for those who did bid. I read the auction rules on closing, and there is nothing in there pertaining to who can bid in extended bidding.

Do you have to bid on an item prior to the 7PM Pacific closing, or can anyone bid in the extended bidding period?

You have to bid prior to the extended bidding period in order to participate.

Yes.

Also it’s in the faq’s.

I "won" something last night with PWCC (I never liked the word "won" for an auction--it's not like I am getting something free, I am paying a lot for this little piece of cardboard!).

The listed cost in the email and invoice were the same.

It did default to vault but it was pretty clear about that and easy to click a button to send to my house. Shipping was $5 on a ~$400 purchase. So perhaps they have fixed some of the issues (at least related to these logistics, I realize that there are bigger issues!).

The auction ended at almost exactly the price I would have expected for a PWCC eBay auction, for whatever that's worth.

I won and sold a card here on net 54 . Im pretty happy🤭

If the devil himself hand an auction an was selling a 52 Mantle that was under comps with an hour to go you’d be shocked at how many people would still wanna deal with him.

Ultimately in this industry it doesn’t matter about integrity it matters about the cards and money.

LOLOLOLOL!!! I'm with you Octavio. There is life before PWCC. There is life after PWCC. You can have a life and not involve PWCC whatsoever.

It is truly amazing.

so true bobby hope all is well

PWCC might be reaching out to you for your buyers contact info so they can have the card sent to there vault

You assume everyone believes in the devil though. Many do not. Many also do not subscribe to the majority of the PWCC conspiracy theories.

This dude doesn't subscribe, for example. :D

Wait....what? Conspiracy theories? LOL

Uh oh, looks like they're having server issues lol. Tonight's monthly auction listings suddenly disappeared 2 minutes before extended bidding started...

Will they cancel all the listings? Will they get it back up in time? Tick tock, tick tock...

The evidence is certainly leaning that way. The FBI investigation has been going on for what, 3 years now? I'm sure those indictments are just around the corner though. Any day now, any day now... Tick tock, tick tock... lol

How long did the Mastro investigation (of a MUCH narrower scope) go on, Mr. Know it All?

PWCC was supposed to enter extended bidding a few minutes ago for the Day 4 auction. For the last 10 minutes at least, there are no items at all listed in the Monthly auction. It is totally empty and reads "Monthly auction items coming soon!" Nothing under My Bids, Favorites, just nothing at all. What a mess.

Could someone have hacked the site?

It's all back now. Seems like they had a pretty serious glitch.

As I've stated numerous times, I know nothing at all about legal matters and FBI investigations. That makes me a self-admitted 'Know-nothing-at-all'. But you can keep calling me "Mr. Know it All" if that makes you feel better about yourself.

But from my ignorant perspective, 3 years and counting sure seems like a long time for zero charges to have been brought if this is still a hot case. Maybe it is, who knows. I certainly don't. But I do have friends at the bureau, and they were working all through the pandemic. I have no idea what cases they work on, and I highly doubt they were working on this one, but I know their work didn't slow down because of the pandemic as has been suggested here. Perhaps the courts are backed up? Again, I don't know. But I know the clock is ticking, and the longer this goes on without charges, the more likely it is that the accusations being made don't hold water.

If you know nothing about a subject, perhaps you should just be quiet instead of offering your smug meaningless observations.

Oof, I'll have to bookmark this one. That comment miiiiiight come back to bite you.

I don't claim to know the status of the investigation, but I'm not from a position of total ignorance making pronouncements about it either. My only point is that the passage of time here doesn't tell us anything.

Well it worked out for him on the Shoeless Joe autographed photo. LOL

Anyway, it seems, from what has been posted on BO and other places, that the investigation may have taken a change of course. Not sure if that is true but it might explain why we have not seen an indictment. Also wasn't the investigation more than just PWCC? Didn't it involve other bad actors?

To conclude silence means the matter has been dropped seems premature and ignorant.

His mocking tone is what really I find appalling given he admits he has zero knowledge even of the general topic of FBI investigations.

"I'm sure those indictments are just around the corner though. Any day now, any day now... Tick tock, tick tock... lol"

It is clear he is the only one here who does not recognize how he comes off.

...

Or perhaps I treat you with the same respect you show to me.

So, does PWCC have an actual phone number to talk to someone live? I can’t think of any other auction house that doesn’t pick up a phone to talk to a customer. I know many people have contacts there, and maybe have the private back line. However, I don’t have that and I’m old school where the best way to communicate is to talk.

the shill just keeps getting more annoying

This supposedly set me back $21.40 shipped, I'll updated again if/when it arrives

Pwcc auction
 

I had the same experience. Winning bid email and invoice vastly different. Thank goodness my max bids were low so i still came out pretty good, but their website is horrible.

Given the importance of first impressions, I am surprised they did not test it more effectively.

If they can continue to do massive business in the face of a federal investigation pertaining to shilling and card doctoring maybe we are WELL PAST first impressions.

"Its not dandruff, its dry scalp"

.....right

Why is it so difficult to run an auction platform/website? I’ve heard nothing but horror stories on how they are run, from bad invoicing all the way to website crashes.