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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>What's with all this "If so & so played in NY he'd be in the Hall"?<br />The NY writers are a small % of who vote<br />and if this logic of playing in the Big Apple is correct<br />then why isn't Munson, Maris or Hodges in?<br />and why did it take so long for Gossage to make it when guys like<br />ESPN's Gammons & Olney stated he had 1st ballot credentials.<br />And to keep throwing Rizzuto's name out as an injustice as induction<br />doesn't make sense. He was a contemporary of Pee Wee Reese and had<br />a slew more Championships, was great on defense and he did win an MVP.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />I agree that there appears to be little favoritism toward New York players in the post-war era. Phil Rizzuto is perhaps the closest call. But in the pre-war era, there were a bunch of guys that don't even come close, and curiously. most of them are Giants like Highpockets Kelly, Dave Bancroft, Travis Jackson and Ross Youngs. I also believe their connection to Frankie Frisch is what got them into Cooperstown, not the fact that they played in New York. There are a few Yankee pitchers like Lefty Gomez, Waite Hoyt and Herb Pennock who were not significantly better than many of their less-heralded contemporaries. But playing for the Yankees certainly hasn't helped Wally Schang (who is more deserving in my opinion than Ray Schalk or Rick Ferrell), Bob Meusel or Carl Mays, to name a few who haven't made it ...

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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Chris - valid points<br />Wonder why Frankie didn't politic for some of his Cardinals pals<br />instead of Giants, then we'd all be thinking that St Louis was<br />stacking the deck <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>He probably had a hand in the inductions of Hafey and Haines, if not others.

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Posted By: <b>Arthur Lobbe</b><p>I always have difficulty dealing with the Hodges Klu comparison. Based on the numbers Klu's stand up extremely well (lifetime BA .298-.273) and during a 4 year stretch 1953-56 he was arguably the best 1st baseman in the game. Defensively, Klu won a number of the defensive awards that were given at the time for 1st basemen. However, his career was plagued by injuries and he didn't have the sustenance that Hodges had. He also didn't have Robinson, Campy or Snider. I think Santo deserves induction, however having grown up in the 50's and 60's, for my money Ken Boyer was the best third basemen in the NL over a long period of time. He was an 11X All Star with 6 starts. He was impressive. What a great topic. This can go on forever.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Frankie Fritsch did manage to get a few old Cardinals into the HOF, including Jim Bottomley, Jesse Haines and Chick Hafey, all borderline candidates. And I personally consider Leo Durocher a stretch as well. I'm surprised he didn't figure out a way to get Pepper Martin in ...<br /><br />As for Ted Kluszewski, what is perhaps most remarkable about him is the fact that he had so much power, yet he was so difficult to strike out. The only other guys I could find who made such great contact and still retained their power were Joe DiMaggio (by far the best ever) and Barry Bonds (45 homers and 41 strike outs in '05). I'm not sure about his defense, though. Rogers Hornsby reportedly wanted to trade him for Earl Torgeson so he could get a better glove at first base ...<br /><br />I'm puzzled why Ken Boyer doesn't get more support. Bill James ranks him as the 12th best 3rd baseman ever, ahead of Pie Traynor and Jimmy Collins ... <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>John Harrell</b><p>My #1 from the list would be Kaat. With 283 wins, a high of 25 in one season, and 16 consecutive Gold Glove awards, he deserves to be in. I'd also include Hodges and Santo, who certainly compares favorably to 3rd basemen already in.<br />John

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Maybe I should amend Oliva's resume to say "if he had played anywhere but Minnesota" instead of "if he had played in New York." The key is that there was no ESPN back then and Twins' players were routinely overlooked by the media and thus the fans. I am old enough to have seen Oliva play in person and I think the comparison to Clemente mentioned above was correct. Tony's struggle with the English language while a player certainly didn't help him either. In this day and age it's hard to imagine Latin players of the 60's not being given their due but with few exceptions, that was the case. I know Killebrew had all the home runs and Puckett the key hits and winning smile and Carew the sweetest swing since Ted Williams, but the best overall player to ever wear a Minnesota uniform was Tony Oliva.

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>I agree with Bob...not that I'm biased to the Twins. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Oliva and Kaat!

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Tony Oliva may make it into the hall, but I don't see what makes him comparable to the great Roberto. Where are Oliva's 12 gold gloves? his MVP award? His 3000 hits? How many times did he carry his team to world series victories?

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Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>I think voters think of Puckett in a different light than Oliva because his career was ended near it's prime (just past) by a bean ball. There have been a of great players whose careers have been adversely effected by knee injuries (Mantle, DiMaggio, Dawson). Oliva only played more than 70 games in a season 11 times in his career. That's a very short career for a potential HOFer whose career didn't end as a result of tragedy, ala Joss or Youngs. Of course, you saw Oliva play, I assume too many times to count, and I didn't, so your knowledge of his abilities far surpasses mine.<br /><br />Edited to add: If Oliva had played with Frankie "Let's get all my buddies into the Hall" Frisch, he'd be a Hofer already.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>The comparisons to clemente are obviously only in regard to oliva before injuries curtailed his career. Until then he was as good a hitter as Clemente (significantly better if you compare the first several years of their careers) a better runner and while not as good defensively he did win one gold glove award. While he never led his team to a world championship he did bat.314 w/a .588 slugging average in the post season compared to Clemente's .318/449.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Don't forget that even if Frisch overreached with Lindstrom and Hafey, his buddies on those clubs weren't just ordinary ballplayers. His pals on the NY Giants won four straight pennants (1921-24) without a real ace on their pitching staffs (maybe Artie Nehf) while his cronies on the Cards won three pennants in four years (28, 30, 31). <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />I mentioned I was just a kid when I considered Oliva to be Clemente's equal. But when I look at Oliva's stats from 1964 to 1971, I'm not convinced there was a better hitter in baseball during the peak of his career. During that eight-year span, he won three batting titles, led the league in hits five times and played in the All-Star game all eight years. As a Hall of Famer, I don't consider him even a borderline case. But then again, I'm the guy who wants to open the flood gates ...<br />

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Posted By: <b>Ron Rice</b><p>Out of all the candidates, I'd vote for Ron Santo.<br /><br />There are few 3rd baseman in the HOF and Santo was probably the best of his era. I read somewhere the Veteran's Committee is trying to go back and include some great fielders whose batting stats left them a little short of making the HOF. Santo fits what they are looking for.<br /><br />