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12-18-2008 08:58 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: J HullHi Scot, I think that you're right. There's clearly a connection between the 8 Hindu no-prints and the 6 Texas League subjects. Population reports are somewhat sketchy, but I think theyre ok for showing trends. I compared some numbers in SGC's pop reports and came up with a pretty interesting one. The first number is population of Piedmont-backed examples, and the second number is the population of Old Mill-backed examples. I've then listed the difference. Revelle = 17/37 = Old Mill +20 Helm = 16/35 = +19 Carey = 23/34 = +11 Foster = 18/28 = +10 Manion = 19/29 = +10 Mullaney = 21/31 = +10 Shaughnessy = 20/29 = +9 Coles = 19/26 = +7 Ellam = 16/23 = +7 Hickman = 21/28 = +7 Cranston = 23/29 = +6 Hooker = 21/27 = +6 Howard = 26/32 = +6 McCauley = 18/24 = +6 Paige = 19/24 = +5 Reagan = 22/27 = +5 Greminger = 24/28 = +4 Bernhard = 24/27 = +3 Kiernan = 26/29 = +3 Smith (Atlanta) = 23/26 = +3 Guiheen = 26/28 = +2 Thornton = 25/27 = +2 Jordan = 26/27 = +1 Lipe = 25/26 = +1 Ryan = 24/25 = +1 Perdue = 21/21 = 0 Breitenstein = 27/26 = Piedmont +1 Otey = 26/25 = +1 Violat = 25/24 = +1 Fritz = 25/23 = +2 Hart (Montgomery) = 32/29 = +3 Hindu no-print Lafitte = 26/23 = +3 Bay = 26/21 = +5 Persons = 30/22 = +8 Hart (Little Rock) = 36/25 = +11 Hindu no-print Miller = 38/25 = +13 Texas Leaguer Stark = 36/23 = +13 Texas Leaguer Molesworth = 35/19 = +16 Bastian = 45/28 = +17 Texas Leaguer Seitz = 38/20 = +18 Hindu no-print Orth = 47/28 = +19 Hindu no-print Smith (Shreveport) = 40/21 = +19 Texas Leaguer White = 42/23 = +19 Texas Leaguer King = 40/20 = +20 Hindu no-print Thebo = 46/26 = +20 Texas Leaguer Westlake = 45/25 = +20 Hindu no-print Rockenfeld = 45/23 = +22 Hindu no-print Lentz (Sentz) = 50/18 = +32 Hindu no-print I think this fairly clearly suggests that the Texas leaguers and Hindu no-prints were printed together. Not only do they lack Hindu backs, but their proportion of Piedmont to Old Mill distinguishes them from other Southern Leaguer cards. That's all I have time for now, but I'll post some other ideas later. Jamie

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12-18-2008 09:06 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: peter ullmanhas anyone seen any type of relationship between availability of SL'ers vs presence in coupon type I set?

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12-18-2008 09:47 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: ScotJamie, Thanks for the additional data. What strikes me is that the number of Old Mill Southerns remains relatively constant across Hindu yes-prints and Hindu no-prints, while the number of Piedmont 350s is much larger for the Hindu no-prints. This suggests that the Hindu no-prints experienced a longer print run with the Piedmont 350 back--but NOT with the Old Mill Southern back. So it looks like we have the following distribution: Subject Group . . . Brown Hindu . . . Old Mill S . . . . Piedmont 350 34 SAL/SA/VL . . . . Full print . . . . . Full print . . . . . Short print 8 SAL/SA/VL . . . . . No print . . . . . Full print . . . . . . Full print + 6 TL Subjects A couple of notes: 1. The Southern Leaguer Paradox: The former 34 subjects were printed with a larger number of backs than the latter 14 subjects, but are less abundant. As Frank W. noted above, this is a paradoxical result. It is explained by the fact that the Piedmont 350 print run dwarfed the Hindu print run in sheer volume. 2. The 150/350 v. 350-Only Analogy: The former 34 subjects were released in 150 series, and therefore short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back--much like the 150/350 subjects were short-printed with 350 series backs. The latter 14 subjects were released in the 350 series, and therefore received a full print with the Piedmont 350 back--much like the 350-only subjects. 3. Piedmont 350 v. Old Mill Timing: The fact that all 48 subjects received a full print with the Old Mill Southern back but the former 34 subjects were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back suggests that the Piedmont 350 print outlasted the Old Mill Southern print. For example, the Piedmont 350 print perhaps lasted until August 1910 whereas the Old Mill Southern print was terminated in May 1910, with the former 34 subjects being pulled from print in June 1910 but the latter 14 subjects continuing to be printed through August 1910. (These dates are just for the sake of argument). Scot

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12-18-2008 09:54 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJAMIE and SCOT For comparison's sake, when I broke up my 2nd T206 set in order to put together my all-PIEDMONT set, these 12 Southern Leaguers (SL) were initially OLD MILL or HINDU's in my former set. I had a heck of a time finding Piedmont's to replace these 12 cards listed below. Guys, I know this is anectdotal; however, it is compararable with your data ? I guess my point here is, that in the 3rd printing (Piedmont run) of the 48 - SL cards, they were not all printed equally. This is now obvious to us. All this data shows that the Texas Leaguers are more available with the Piedmont brand (by a factor of 2/1) over the Old Mill brand. And, now we know that at least Hart (Little Rock), King, Lentz, Orth, Rockenfeld and Seitz appear to be more available with the Piedmont brand. Southern Leaguers that were tougher for me to find with the Piedmont brand...... Breitenstein Coles Foster FritzGreminger Guiheen Helm Hickman Hooke r Manion Paige Revelle Ryan TED Z

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12-18-2008 10:12 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Scot Ted, Sounds like your extensive set-building experience is consistent with the above data and theories. Scot

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12-18-2008 10:17 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Scot Hi Brian, The only math I see in my earlier post is 8 + 6 = 14. I thought you could handle that one (smiley). Best, Scot

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12-18-2008 10:32 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisAn original T206 collection (from So. Car.) that I acquired back in 2005 consisted of 404 cards. Of which 378 were all PIEDMONT (150 & 350) cards; and, there were 26 diff. SL cards (all OLD MILL's). There were no P460 cards, indicating that the original collector must of stopped collecting early in 1910. I'll try to find my list of these SL cards. I do remember that Shaughnessy was one of the 26....his card always stands out. To be continued. TED Z

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12-18-2008 10:52 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Scot, I was having a little fun with Dave last night and I guess you missed the humor... Be well Brian PS My daughter and I can only count that high if we use pennies...

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12-18-2008 11:10 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Scot The humor was not lost; just having a little fun back . . . .

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12-18-2008 11:20 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Scot, I'm pretty sure the Old Mill Southern League run was discontinued to make way for the T210 set which was released sometime in the spring of 1910.... 3. Piedmont 350 v. Old Mill Timing: The fact that all 48 subjects received a full print with the Old Mill Southern back but the former 34 subjects were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back suggests that the Piedmont 350 print outlasted the Old Mill Southern print. For example, the Piedmont 350 print perhaps lasted until August 1910 whereas the Old Mill Southern print was terminated in May 1910, with the former 34 subjects being pulled from print in June 1910 but the latter 14 subjects continuing to be printed through August 1910. (These dates are just for the sake of argument). Be well Brian

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12-18-2008 11:39 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Scot Brian, That makes good sense. Scot

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12-18-2008 04:22 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: J HullLooking again at the data I posted this morning, if you sort the list by the highest total sum (Piedmont + Old Mill) these are the "easiest" Southern Leaguers: Orth = 75 Bastian = 73 Thebo = 72 Westlake = 70 Lentz = 68 Rockenfeld = 68 White = 65 Miller = 63 Smith (Shreveport) = 61 Hart (Little Rock) = 61 Hart (Montgomery) = 61 King = 60 Stark = 59 Seitz = 58 And then the 34 others. And, yep, neat as can be, there are our 8 Hindu no-prints and 6 Texas Leaguers. I guess pop reports are good for something. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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12-18-2008 04:24 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: J HullSo, to Brian and others, I think we can see the effect of the T210 set elsewhere as well. I hadn't made the connection until reading this thread, but consider this as well: The 350-only series contains 124 American and National League cards. Only about 40%-45% of those 124 have been confirmed with Old Mill backs. For reference, that's roughly the same percentage as have been confirmed with Drum backs. And Drum and Old Mill have the lowest number of confirmed cards available among all the brands. Among the 86 American Association and Eastern League cards only about 35%-40% have been confirmed with Old Mill backs. Drum has the same percentage. Again, Drum and Old Mill have the lowest percentage of confirmed cards of any brands. So it seems to me that not only were Southern Leaguers pulled to make way for T210s, but all T206s were pulled. Since the 350-460 series T206 cards have all or almost all been confirmed with Old Mill backs, it seems like the timeline of T206 production included a hiatus with regard to Old Mill lasting from sometime early in the 350-only series until sometime after the beginning of the 350-460 series. Jamie

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12-18-2008 05:30 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Scot Jamie, Wow! 14-for-14. Rarely are data that clean. This thread has made an important contribution to the T206 knowledge base. Scot

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12-18-2008 06:06 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Jamie, Nice work... But we aren't done yet... Ted, Scot, and a few others will help us complete the cycle... I'm watching Tyler break the Tarheels scoring record tonight, but will be in touch tomorrow. Be well Brian PS too many people forget about the popularity and distribution of the brands... PS 2 Barry... I'm typing really fast... so expect lots of errors...

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12-18-2008 06:24 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI think our combined efforts in this thread have resulted in proving that your SL-HINDU subset is complete with 34 cards. Congratulations, guy......tis quite an achievement. Certainly greater than any of my short-set sub-sets. TED Z

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12-18-2008 07:26 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, Thanks... But I don't see one being more impressive than the other... We chose different sets and focused on acquiring the cards... We are both persistent, so we were bound to finish at some point.... But I don't think either one of us cares about such a small victory, we want to prove the big picture. And Buddy we aren't far away. Talk to you soon. Brian PS Tyler broke the record tonight and I have 30 people in the "man cave" down stairs so I have to go....

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12-19-2008 12:20 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: barry arnoldWow! Congratulations,fellows. Leon , this one belongs in the Net 54 Archive Center. best, Barry

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12-19-2008 07:12 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThis thread is somewhat reminiscent of your famous EPDG thread. The posts on this thread are not as numerous as your EPDG; nevertheless, these posts are very illuminating regarding the HINDU mysteries and their relation to the availability of certain T206 Southern Leaguers. The "taming" of the Monster continues. TED Z

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12-19-2008 02:14 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Jamie, Scot or Ted, Check the Polar Bear data on the 350 cards when you have a chance and see what it looks like.... I would, but I'm looking after six kids right now....Help.............. Be well Brian

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12-19-2008 02:31 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: J HullHa Brian. Sounds like fun. I'm sitting in a mostly empty office watching a blizzard, so here you go. P.S. This data's a couple months out of date, so could be missing a few. And/or someone else may have more complete numbers... All 350-only cards (AL + NL + AA + EL): 210 cards / 143 confirmed with Polar Bear backs (68%) American and National Leaguers: 72 out of 124 confirmed to have Polar Bear backs (58%) American Association: 36 out of 39 confirmed to have Polar Bear backs (92%) Eastern League: 35 out of 47 confirmed to have Polar Bear backs (74%)

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12-19-2008 07:04 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI'm not sure how we got sidetracked to accounting for Polar Bear (PB) backs; however, I find it very interesting that all 61 Subjects (incl. 6 super-prints) in the 350/460 Series and all 48 Subjects in the 460-only Series were printed with PB backs. Yet, in the 350-only Series there appears to be 67 No- Prints (subject to revision). Scot and I discussed this recently, and my observation is that in anticipation of the ATC divestiture (circa early 1911) the Polar Bear brand was assigned to the Lorillard Co. Then there appears to have been a significant increase in production of Polar Bear tobacco, as reflected by the fact that not only all 109 of these cards are found with the PB backs; but, more so than other brands. For example, both Cobb's in the 350/460 series and Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chi & Bos) are found with a greater ratio of PB backs than with the other brands. Perhaps someone can confirm this observation with pop. report data. TED Z

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12-20-2008 07:40 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner Thanks Jamie, Stay warm and safe in the storm... Hi Ted, I wasn't trying to get off topic, but confirm some thoughts I've had on the distribution of certain brands with certain leagues. Be well Brian PS The kids are going to the Nutcracker all day, so I'm free to post away. Now I need some Diet coke to wake up my brain.

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12-20-2008 07:50 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHey guy....I welcome more analysis of these cards....what do you think of my thoughts of POLAR BEAR's being printed in much larger numbers for the 460 series cards ? This includes the 460 versions of the 350/460 series group. TED Z P.S.....drink the real Coke (or Pepsi)....that diet stuff is deleterious to your system.

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12-20-2008 08:27 AM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, I think you are probably right, but I haven't really studied the data on Polar Bears in awhile. I'll take a look when the brain wakes up.... Talk to you soon. Be well Brian PS I got off of Caffeine for two years and felt better than I ever have... Then I got married, went through four pregnancies and have two busy children, so I started back. I don't eat any sweats... no cakes, pies, ice cream, candy or sugar of any kind, so Diet Coke is the only way to go for me... I working on switching to Cranberry juice, but it hasn't worked yet.

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12-20-2008 06:17 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: barry arnoldTed Z, Many thanks for the EPDG memories!! The 'taming' of the Monster is well on its way, thanks to many, but particularly to those who have done the great research on this thread! Merry Christmas, ole friend Barry

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12-20-2008 08:07 PM

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWishing you and Margarite a very MERRY CHRISTMAS....my dear friend. TED Z I hope I spelled your lovely wife's name correctly.

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