I'm with you, Pete. Everyone has taken a hit now and again. That's how we learn.

We can still all join hands and sing though, if you want.

Ryan comparison
 

I remember the Ryan Rookie card sale very. The Ryan rookie was marked for $800 but the inexperienced clerk misread the price as $8.00.

What I would like to know here is if the Lenox seller paid market price for the card or if the card was purchased as part of a lot as a common card. If the seller purchased the card as a common do they feel obligated to track down the original seller and correct the previous transaction? If they do not intend on correcting the original transaction they have very little justification for canceling this transaction.

I am in the unpopular opinion crowd in thinking if they made a mistake they should be able to cancel the sale. I understand the contract thing and all of that but if it were me that made a mistake I would want some compassion on being able to fix it...and on the converse if I found a 10k card for $10 and the seller canceled it, I would understand. Don't get me wrong, if he still shipped it I would accept it, but I would understand if he didn't. Just one opinion here....

Now, if it were an auction style sale then that is different and I don't think canceling an auction sale is cool, unless there was some extraordinary issue other than this kind of mistake.....

Go for it!

You know you want to ... ;)

My brother and I both use the same ebay ID...we own an antique shop together...I was at home listing postcards with a BIN of $9.99...he was at the shop and unbeknownst to me he started listing some items...he did not realize that the ebay auction software was set to Buy It Now instead of auction and he listed a Major Matt Mason playset that normally sells for $200-$300...someone hit the BIN within minutes of his listing it...we quickly notified the buyer that it was a mistake and tried to cancel the transaction...he refused. We just relisted it correctly as an auction and the guy left us a negative.

I don't think we had any moral obligation to complete the transaction...it was a mistake, they happen.

Lenox card
 

On the Lenox card in question, the buyer is a member of these boards and is reading this thread with great interest. In this case I know for a fact that the seller has not reached out to the buyer to request canceling the sale and I know for a fact that while eBay lists the card as "shipped", the USPS has no tracking information available. There is no evidence that the card has in fact left Houston.

Well I for one will make sure I never get another deal on Ebay, and I will be sure to keep cash on hand just incase I buy something below market value.

I think an appropriate resolution might involve the seller contacting the buyer, explaining the situation, and requesting to cancel the transaction. I would also think that it might be appropriate for the seller to offer a certain compensation for the purchasers time and consideration. Maybe $100 or something along those lines.

+1. The fact that the card was listed with a bunch of T206 commons leads me to believe that it was acquired by the seller as a common card (otherwise, why wouldn't it be separated from the low $$ merchandise). If the seller didn't pay top dollar for the Lenox, the he's not "losing" $1000+, he's just not making out on a huge potential profit. Lesson learned.

If the seller did indeed pay top dollar or close to top dollar on the Lenox and someone listed it incorrectly, then I feel that he would be justified in cancelling the deal.

People talking about apples, oranges, mangos, and pomegranates. They're all fruit but not the same.

Listing something at $8.00 when the intent was to list something at $800 is not of the same fruit as listing something at $8.00 because you aren't aware of the value.

As to compassion. Compassion that is forced is not compassion.

Agreed.

This is an interesting conversation. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. However, I am impressed by the sense of equity that some of you expressed. Your sense of "doing the right thing" and that "everyone makes mistakes" is uplifting.

Personally I believe that for better or worse a deal is a deal. The best lessons I learned were from my own mistakes. One of my favorite lines is from the movie Rounders and goes something like this - "I can't remember how I made my bankroll but I can't stop thinking about how I lost it."

In both this instance and the Nolan Ryan rookie card instance, and employee, or someone working for the business owner incorrectly sold something at the wrong price. I don't think that is apples and oranges.

Has the seller said why the card was priced at that amount?

How do you know this? Did seller miss a decimal point--was going to sell it for $2495.00? I don't think so. Did he list the wrong item? He identified it as Lennox, twice, so I don't think so. Did he not know what he had? Probably.

I do see apples and oranges
 

In the case of the Ryan card the seller paid a hefty price for the card and then tried to flip for a profit. Selling at the low price involved loss of money in the transactions. In the case of the Lenox we do not know if the seller bought it as a common and sold it as a common, in which case there is the loss of profit but not money. If the seller bought at a premium I question why the didn't take better care of the card to ensure it was listed appropriately. If they bought as a common, does the seller feel obligated to go back to the original seller and correct the original transaction? Because unless the seller plans on going back to correct the original deal they are wanting to play both sides of the game and have no moral rights to the card or the excess profits they will make that should have gone to the original seller.

In the case of the Lennox, where is it stated that an employee listed it wrong? I may have missed that.

I misspoke earlier when I mentioned the name of the seller. I said that is was a friend of mine, Howard Lau, who owns a shop here in town. I had the eBay usernames confused with another friend. Howard is not the owner of the card. However, the correct owner has been notified and we’ll see if he ships it or not. That’s up to him.

Ultimately in life it's better to do the right thing. Not too long ago an auction house had a BIN sale where they dramatically underpriced a Cracker Jack card -- they listed it at SMR but in fact the market value was several times that (SMR is notoriously off on CJs and they refuse to fix it). I was tempted just to buy it, and make a tidy profit but decided to alert them instead.

I did that too. I saw one of our members list a card erroneously on ebay not too long ago. It was a several hundred dollar Zeenut he had miss listed for a small fraction of that. A very obvious mistake. I hit the BIN immediately to protect him. I told him about it, he thanked me and we canceled the sale. I thought in the time I alerted him that someone else might have hit the BIN, before he closed the auction down, and then he would have possibly had a bigger issue.

What is the "right thing" in this case?
 

We know the eBay seller sold the card for far below market value. Did they also buy it for far below market value? Is the eBay seller obligated to do the "right thing" or only the eBay buyer?

I don't think anyone is obligated to do anything. It's just a shame to see someone get taken advantage of.

I really don't have skin in the game on this, but do find people's choices and opinions interesting. I strongly suspect that if buyer had acquired this card at an estate or yard sale for $25.00 most here would slap him on the back with a great big attaboy and a cry of lament as to how they should be so lucky. Never mind that seller there is likely unsophisticated,might even be grieving, and probably can be excused for not knowing certain nuances about back scarcities. Yet when one of the brotherhood, who damn well should know what he is doing as he does it for a living, underprices his goods, it is only right that he be advised of his oversight (I won't even call it a mistake per se) so he can maximize his profit. IF you are one of those people I would be interested in how you reconcile the two situations.

exactly!!!!!

Leon & Peter have some great Karma coming there way!

It's a tough hobby though,bid in a lot of auctions where shilling may take place ( except when I consign) & it's wrong and we are considered morally corrupt.
Find a great deal & tell the seller they are wrong on price....Watch endless BIN's way over priced.....it's not easy to collect

Well said. Unless somebody can show me the eBay seller paid full value for the card and sold for a fraction through an error then I say the sale should stand. If the eBay seller bought for a fraction of fair market value they are not entitled to the excess profits resulting from the mistake of the original seller when they then repeat a mistake that they should be knowledgable enough to prevent.

I don't think the karma police will be tracking me down for voicing my opinion. I have sold cards numerous times at a loss...not just little losses...in some cases big losses. I don't bitch and whine...I accept it and move on.

If I make a mistake...I don't expect to be given a re-do...I accept the repercussions, move on... and am a better person as a result.

Excellent points; it's certainly not cut and dry.

I guess this particular issue hits home for me. I could easily see myself in this sort of situation. I list most of my items between the hours of 9-11pm and I sometimes make mistakes (thankfully none that cost me $1,000). You can tell by the listing that it was a mistake. The buyer knew it was a mistake and everyone in this thread knows that the listing was a mistake. The seller obviously never meant to list a Lenox back t206 card for $25. Something just didn't register with him (or whomever) at the time.

Some people see a mistake on ebay and take advantage and others try to correct it. I don't fault the guy who capitalized on it (I would've done the same), but I would also understand if the buyer reneged.

I don't think they will track you down, if in fact they exist. I can relate 100% to your view point and share the same experiences ! I'm glad we can all express our viewpoints.
I always imagine karma more as a universal force than a police force
Paul C

I think it's always best to do the right thing, but if the seller's last name been Mastro or Nash, now THAT would have been "great Karma". ;)

In your example of the estate sale or the yard sale, if the seller didn’t know the value, then they should have done more research. They priced the card at an amount they felt comfortable with. If the seller did know the value and simply made a pricing a mistake, they have the right to back out of the sale before it is finalized. With eBay, the seller didn’t have a chance to back out due to a pricing mistake. That's the difference.

Edited to add: But let's turn it around, Todd. You are an attorney. Let's say you agree to take my case, but I have to put up a $5K retainer. Your secretary bills me for only $500 (she omits a zero from the bill). Do you still take my case with only a $500 retainer, or do you have your secretary contact me and tell me there was a pricing mistake? Just curious???

I just don't agree with all these caveats people are suggesting...if this then this? Are you a mind reader? Do you know what a seller was thinking...or what knowledge is in his/her brain? And it's not like baseball card dealers are the most ethical, honest bunch out there...who's to say they can't lie?

There is no evidence here that there was a pricing error--is someone suggesting that this card was intended to be sold for $2495.00 and a decimal point was missed? Or is it more likely that someone forgot or didn't realize that a Lennox back--noted BOTH in the title and in the description-- is worth considerably more than $24.95. Two completely different animals.

I think the price should have been $249.95.

No caveats. If you see a dealer make a mistake on a listing you can either take advantage of the mistake or try to correct it. Neither choice is wrong.

All I said was it's a shame this dealer was dealing with an opportunist.

This was not an error in decimal place. All t206 cards sold by the seller were the same $24.95 price. Regardless of back.

nothing personal, JAson...but I find your way of thinking to be totally one sided.

Call him and ask him

(713) 672-2793

Still waiting on answer for question in post #112

Pot calling the kettle black.

An opportunist? As a buyer aren't we all opportunists, looking for an opportunity to get a card at a good, or preferably great price?
If there is a shame here it's not the buyer fault. I don't think they were taking advantage of the seller. The seller offered an item at a price.
If you see cross country airline tickets offered for $40 by United Airlines would you call them and say the price is too low & you would prefer to pay 10 times the offered price?
If an attorney says "all retainers are 5k" and the bill is 500 one could rightly expect the know price to come back and the error to be addressed.
The seller never said the Lenox card is a steal at $249.50 or made any indication of value other than the BIN price. If the card goes to a TPG and comes back as a fake the price might end up being.......high. Not saying that will happen, but it would likely change everyone's opinion on the subject.
Paul C

I will not call him and ask him. Unlike you, I do not gratuitously interject myself into other people's business transactions.

As for your post, learn what retainers truly are and then come back with a proper question. If I were to provide services at an agreed-upon rate and list a detailed accounting of my time--as is the case with my billings, which are generated on a software program not likely to make a computational error-- and that time came to $5000.00, then I would expect to get paid for all of my time expended, and would point out any error that claimed $500.00 and request the difference. If the client did not agree, I would likely eat the difference and withdraw from further representation.

OK, now try saying that with the voice of John Houseman, because that's how I'm hearing it in my head. :D

I never blamed the buyer. What he did was not wrong in any regard, he took advantage of a seller who made a simple mistake. In this hobby some people praise that sort of action (I know I do sometimes).

It's just unfortunate for the dealer.

I generally don't either. I make an exception in the case of a friend.

Thank you, but I know what a retainer is - it's bascially like an advanced payment for an attorney's fee. In 1999, I had to put up a retainer in my custody battle with my ex wife. The attorney charged a $5000 retainer and billed $250/hr against the retainer. Every month I received a bill for whatever he billed so that there was $5K in the retainer at all time. Don't tell me about retainer fees.

Small factual correction, the Ryan Rookie was marked 12- when the goal was to sell at $1200, the buyer, who was about 12 years old at the time bought it at $12 and then opened his mouth to his friends.

But it was $12 and $1200

You are actually incorrect a true retainer is paid so the lawyer is available when you call. In essence it is earned when paid. The situation you described is a fee deposit. The money is given to the lawyer but is not earned until he works on the case. Most lawyers even get confused about the difference.

I agree with this sentiment. I don't see how it can be okay to benefit in one situation but not the other.

Maybe we should have a poll:

If you were the buyer of this card, would you agree if the seller wished to cancel the sale?

I once bought a BIN T206 Piedmont on ebay for about $30. When it arrived I realized that it was a Factory 42. I was thrilled. I would not have agreed to cancel the sale if the seller had asked, nor would I think that I had done anything wrong by keeping the card.

Morality
 

The moral thing to do if winning one of these 2 cards is to contact the seller and explain to them that they erroneously priced the card, and come up with a compromise $ that works for both sides...

Anything less is just bad justification for your lack of morals in the case of a severely under-priced card.

Now, getting a good deal due to your knowledge of condition/scarcity of a card is fair game and the buyer should not have to pay back the difference of the purchase price. JMO

Of course, many people are focused more so on $ and not so much on morals....And that's ok but don't pretend that your purchase is morally sound...

This is not a moral issue. Lying, stealing and killing are immoral.

Stealing
 

One could argue this would be stealing...I'm pretty sure JC would not make the argument "Hey it's their fault they didn't know what they were selling, Nice buy!" (followed with a high-five)...

Again, I don't think you have the LEGAL obligation to return card, but don't try to make a MORAL justification for completing this transaction....

No, not really

Roughly a year ago one board member (Jerry) found and bought a Brown Old Mill on ebay for $50. Should he contact the seller and offer him $5,000 in order to do the moral thing?

Did you seriously just try to use Christ as a trump card?

The situation is totally different. The Lenox was a mistake in the price. The Old Mill was a case of the seller not knowing (or taking the time to research) what they were listing. Had the buyer bought the Lenox because it wasn't listed correctly, it would be a different story. Taking advantage of a pricing mistake is another story. Yes, it is a moral issue.

I don't take a religious angle on this, but I do think it would be wrong to take advantage of someone's ignorance and buy a 5 figure card for $9.99 without at least kicking something back to the seller.

Whether it's a moral issue or not is debatable, but it's in no way stealing.

Yes
 

Yes, I did bring JC into the conversation, or any other religious leader of your choosing...

Sometimes you have to ask yourself "What would (insert religious leader) do?" when posed with questions of morality. Would be interested to know what religious leader would be in favor of either the Lenox or McKinley buy without contacting the seller for a compromise verdict.

Again, if morality is not a priority in your life that's your choice, but don't try to justify your purchase with moral arguments...

Patrick,

I agree that a person should live his life according to his morals and religious beliefs. My position is that this is not a moral issue. You feel that it is. We are not going to see eye to eye on this one and that is okay.

Alex

Peter, so do you believe this sale happened because of ignorance or because seller knew the truth and just made a mistake in the manner he listed/sold the item? BTW, it was $24.95 for the card, within the range of other T206s he was selling. If he was ignorant as to what he had (in your opinion), then how do you square it with the poor soul who doesn't know the value of items at a yard sale/ estate sale?

Todd I am talking about the McKinley. I haven't really followed the facts on the T206. The thread is confusing because people seem to go back and forth on which of the two cards they are talking about, and I guess I just did the same thing. Clearly, the McKinley seller had no idea what he or she had.

...

I agree with Leon when he stated that if someone listed a BIN wrongly, he would be ok with canceling the transaction, but an auction is a different story...Jerry won this card via an auction, so I believe you have to throw this example out the window.

I have won more than one BIN at a steal of a price and have both waited a day or two for the seller to contact me to cancel or I have contacted the seller to ask if it was a mistake. In those instances the seller was happy I understood the situation and it made me feel good that I helped them out and did the right thing.

I don't think I'm alone in my thinking when I say that some of these decisions would greatly depend on the price of the grab. If you are making $20 on the card, it wouldn't be a big deal to cancel, but if you just took a seller for 1k, I bet we would have a majority vote on people that would absolutely not return the card. Money talks, my friend....end of story.

I do think when these types of things occur and if you are the person that gets first crack at the deal, you are dealt an interesting hand. Any way you look at it, you are getting over on someone and you could make it right if you choose to...doesn't matter how you handle the situation, you have been dealt the opportunity to either do right and inform someone that they are about to be out some big bucks or take advantage and take something that was definitely a mistake...knowingly or not...the fact is that you know it was a mistake and could help correct it.

Just my opinion.

Who are you to dictate morality to anybody? Everybody draws their own line and has to live with that choice. But to tell me what is moral and what isn't, who do you think you are?

This whole subject is very simple. It is all about where each of you personally draw the line. Is it drawn at a dollar amount? a percentage? does it depend of how much the seller is into the item? (which nobody knows except the seller) knowledge or lack of by the seller? a clerical mistake? It all depends on your individual morals or thoughts, not what somebody else wants to dictate to you what their morals are. None are right or wrong!

My wise wife always kicks me under the table to prevent me from talking about religion.
That said I simply can't imagine JC buying baseball cards on ebay, but I am no expert on religion.

SO you heard it here folks...as if it's not hard enough to find fair deals on ebay for vintage cards...now if a card appears too "fairly" priced...it is now your responsibility to determine if the seller made a mistake or if they aren't educated enough to know what they are selling...and then contact the seller to discuss and hone his pricing strategies.

My 2 cents: if I got a deal on eBay where I paid 80 when the card was "worth" 120, I would consider that a win. If I paid 10 bucks for a card worth 10,000, I would be closer to stealing, in my mind - I would really struggle with it. Same at a yard sale. If they were selling a Picasso for 10 bucks, I would not buy it until I made sure they were aware of what they had first.

In the case of he McKinley, I would have emailed the seller before buying.

I did that one time at a card show. The guy was selling a 1948 Leaf John Wagner as a common. I promptly told him that it was actually a Honus Wagner, and he proceeded to charge me more. Now am I to be blamed for telling him of his error or is he to be blamed for charging me more? Sorry, but I am an educator, not an "opportunist". I also recently got kicked out of a facebook baseball card group for pointing out a member's fake card. That being said, I wouldn't change a thing in either instance.

I don’t think anybody is saying it’s a buyer’s job to educate a seller on what they’re selling. That’s ridiculous. If the buyer doesn’t know the value of the item they are selling, shame on them for not doing their homework. This was not the case with the Lenox card. It was a pricing error. If you think it’s ok to take advantage of the situation on a pricing error, so be it. As someone stated earlier, everyone has draws their own line on morals. I just hope that if you ever make a mistake, someone shows you more compassion than you’re showing this seller. Good luck.

I've asked this before (regarding the Lennox). I did not see where it was pointed out that this was a "pricing error" as opposed to the seller not knowing what they had. This is just an assumption people are making. The only evidence someone pointed to indicate that it was NOT a pricing error was that ALL his T206 cards where listed at the SAME price. Anything else is just an assumption, which gets back to Peter's point about having to now know what is in the mind of the seller as well.

Can someone point me to the post that shows the seller did not INTEND to price the card at $24.95?

And do you believe everything you read? No research? The seller has 7 other T206s listed. Only ONE, (not ALL) of them are priced at teh SAME price ($24.95).

I guess it's easy to post anything you want on a message board - nobody verifies the facts.

++++++++++++++++++1

Instead of pointing you to a post, how about a phone number? Call him and ask him yourself.

(713) 67x-xxxx (PM for it)

why don't you just post Joe O's # up there while you're at it...because I would believe anything he says.

You are 100% correct on this. So where does it show this was a "pricing error"?

I'm not sure what you're looking for? How is it supposed to show that it was a pricing error? What do you want to see?

The only way to know is to call the seller and ask him. If you know of another way, please share.

Guys - It seems wrong to post someone else's phone number on the board without their consent.

Agreed and taken care of. Please don't post phone numbers besides a business unless the person gives their approval first.

What else could the seller say? It is clear he made a mistake, an error a fubar. I always thought people looked through ebay in the hopes of a deal & I never considered my morals would be called into question by agreeing to purchase an item from a seller ( of legal adult age & with over 30,000 transactions) had offered in the marketplace.
Ebay can't force a seller to ship anything. Ask them & they will readily admit that.