Great stories, Brian. In his book, Dr. Olvey talks about being a big proponent of the HANS device long before it gained widespread acceptance. He recognized decades ago that basilar skull fractures were a problem that could be greatly reduced. Olvey mentioned Jim Hickman dying at the Milwaukee Mile in 1982 when his throttle stuck wide open. CART responded by immediately requiring an engine kill switch on the steering wheel prior to the next race; NASCAR took two decades to institute the same rule -- following the death of Adam Petty due to a stuck throttle.

Olvey also talks about the fatal crashes of Gordon Smiley, Greg Moore, Jeff Krossnoff and Gonzalo Rodriguez and what happened in those accidents. He wrote that he was angry that Rodriguez lost his life in such a seemingly minor crash due to a basilar skull fracture.

Here in the Northeast, we lost our Indy 500/Daytona 500 for Northeast Modifieds with the closing of the Syracuse (N.Y.) Mile last October. I attended 29 of the last 30 "Super DIRT Week" shows at the Syracuse Mile. The race has now moved to nearby Oswego (N.Y.) Speedway, but an era really did end with the state demolishing the racetrack at the New York State Fairgrounds for a $50 million revitalization project after 112 years of racing.

I have been to other tracks for their farewell race, but last October was probably the saddest scene I have ever witnessed at a racetrack. That race was so huge in the 1970s, '80s, '90s that it seemed preposterous to ever believe it would disappear.

http://www.syracuse.com/kirst/index....p_respect.html

http://www.syracuse.com/kirst/index..../post_599.html


I am interested in buying one of your books. Do you accept Paypal?

I am sorry for your loss as a racing fan of your beloved track that gave you so many happy memories.

When I think of the HANS device, and what a right proper helmet might have done for Mr. Earnhardt at Daytona in 2001.... I will never forget seeing his fatal accident initially. I am by no means an expert, but it just didn't look that bad, but then my heart sank when commentator Darrell Waltrip immediately said it looked bad. The sad sound of his voice.....

Racing has fortunately come a long way in sparing the driver's life. Most folks don't understand it's still dangerous as all get-out!

Eddie, I am sorry to say I am not set up for PAYPAL. I've been asking for a money order for my book. I was paying a monthly bill by money order for years, and I'd just get 'em down at my local Post Office. They currently charge just $1.20. Your book will be sent to you postpaid, via first class mail.

Should you decide to take a chance on my book, here's my address:

Brian Powell
P. O. Box 743
New Carlisle, Indiana 46552

I probably should have written this as a personal message. I hope you're not put off, my friend. I guess in this instance, I do not mind others knowing my mailing address. I've still got a lot of copies to sell--HA!

Honestly, in my heart of hearts, I think you'll be profoundly moved by it.

Don't let the cover fool you---the book is by no means just about Mickey Mantle cards. My cover photo actually traces to when I started my writing, as a four-part series for SPORTS COLLECTORS DIGEST on difficult Mantle cards. The third installment would have had to run in two parts.

The series expanded to a book for a few personal reasons. My editor all along was former SCD editor, Tom Bartsch. The book looks very professional, I assure you. As you read it by scrolling down slowly with you computer mouse, you will ALWAYS see the "bookmarks" off to the side, allowing you to go to any entity in the book swiftly.

Rather disappointed in the Mickey Mantle card collectors. They should have jumped on NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN at once. After all, one of the chapters traces the never-told story and provenance of one of PSA's listed TOP 250 SPORTS CARDS in the hobby. Naturally, it's not a condition-rarity Topps or Bowman product. By no means, it's a massive condition-rarity 1 of 1 highest graded specimen of a rare regional.

Now, these tough Mantles ARE out there, and as David Festberg smugly commented, "they're around". The fact is, yes, they are around, with several now on eBay. But they are all around PSA 1 POOR or PSA 1 with a dreaded qualifier. Once in a while, a low high-grade PSA 2 will show up. So when Mr. Festberg correctly told me, "They're around", his statement was in need of a badly-warranted QUALIFIER!

Eddie, I was so depressed when Adam Petty perished at that track. That tragedy just crushed the family. I well remember someone commented at the next race on TV that Kyle would still go up to his room at night to pray with him and tell him good night. The pathos of it all.:( He was such a nice young friendly guy. Well, for a long time racing has been known as, "the cruel sport". In fact, a book was written on F1 racing with that title over 50 years ago.

Must go! Can't edit! UGH! --Brian Powell

Brian, I will stop and get a money order today or tomorrow and send it off to you.

Thanks Eddie! I will personally service your order and get it mailed out to you first class within 24 hours of getting your money.

My last post was anything but succinct. You get me going on historical racing and my post becomes an endurance read! Sorry about that. My passion for vintage racing mirrors your own--we just enjoy it in different ways. It's all good, bro!

Take care, friend. I'm keeping an eye on that 1959 Yoo-Hoo Chocolate Drink Mickey Mantle that Robert Edward Auctions is currently offering. I would have loved to do a chapter on that rare bird. Not enough facts to fly with it. Better shush---I'm off the subject of Vintage Racing.

Best regards, Brian Powell

Another vintage racing fan here. I've been collecting STP cards for years but the last time I submitted any for grading was probably 8 years ago. Sent in a group of various cards last month and just got them back. Included were these 7. Certainly not top grades but I'll take anything in this set.

https://s12.postimg.org/iumn468n1/image.jpg

Justus, great to have another racing collector in the thread, especially a fan of the 1972 STP set. Thanks for sharing the picture. Those are nice looking cards. :)

I had seen there were Glotzbach, Brooks, Parsons, Hylton cards at auction/for sale on eBay a few months ago, and I noticed that the PSA population had increased recently. Before that, it was at least a year since the PSA population increased for any of the cards in the set.

With the recent find of Lorenzen cards, it seems the portrait version of his card is now accessible to any collector willing to pay for the card. There was only one Lorenzen with car card in that find. I am surprised the Bobby Allison card does not have more of a reputation as a legendary rarity. PSA's population only shows two graded Allison cards, and I have never seen one for sale or at auction. I went probably two years without ever seeing a Petty '72 STP card on eBay, but there have been four or five of them on eBay over the past year.

I am blown away by the ending price of an amazing autograph book of 1960s NASCAR racers that ended on eBay Wednesday night. The seller "youwin1415" has been listing all kinds of awesome racing items in recent months. I am not really an autograph guy, but the autograph book that ended tonight was just incredible -- I am still shocked at the $2,605 ending price. I figured the book would probably be around an $800-1,000 item, but two bidders put in huge snipes. My snipe never fired and was blown out of the water. :(

The book is just amazng, with dozen of autographs, including Fireball Roberts, Ralph Earnhardt, Dave MacDonald, Bobby Isaac, Billy Wade, Tiny Lund, Wendell Scott, Bobby Marshman, Jimmy Pardue, Jo Schlesser and tons of big name racers who did not perish in the '60s.

Just from looking at the list of names in the listing, there are at least seven drivers on the list who lost their lives racing in the 1960s.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NASC...vip=true&rt=nc

Yikes, I just looked at one of "youwin1415"'s other amazing autograph auctions that ended on Wednesday night. I did not have a snipe in for this one, but it is also incredible -- with autographs of open wheel racers Marshall Teague, Jimmy Bryan, Bill Vukovich, Carl Scarborough and more. Just the four names I listed all died prior to 1961.

As awesome as the item is, the ending price of $3,350 left me stunned. :eek: The same buyer won both this item and the one listed above.

From those not familiar, Scarborough died of heat exhaustion during the 1953 Indy 500. Bill Vukovich dominated the race en route to winning (then was killed while leading at Indy going for his third straight win two years later). After winning the '53 race (in which nearly a dozen drivers were treated for heat-related issues), Vukovich climbed out of his car in Victory Lane and remarked: "You think this is hot? You ought to drive a tractor in Fresno in July."

Numerous relief drivers had to be used that day due to the heat. Vukovich also commented following the race: "Every time I passed a car, it had a different driver in it."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CART...p2047675.l2557

LOL, my snipe wasn't activated either. Wow, impressive item.

Loved your write-ups, Eddie. While I am not into autographs much at all, I must say that the names you mentioned among the autographs were immensely impressive. Rarity is not good enough to describe how difficult it would be to find autographs of these long-deceased auto racing greats. Racing drivers are wonderful with their fans, and do sign easily for the most part, but some of these guys have been gone since before I was born, or at least over 50 years.

Great story on Bill Vukovich, which I well remember reading on the 1953 500. The official film called that race "The Hottest 500". In the film Carl Scarborough is seen driving slowly into the pits, for the last time. The look on his face was terrible. What struck me was that he was wearing a solid black uniform, which would exacerbate the effect of the sunlight on him, contributing to his demise. How sad.

The autograph that struck home the most was Dave MacDonald, one of the greatest Corvette racers of all time, as well as that of the Cobra, King Cobra, and the Cobra Daytona coupe. I dearly wish he had taken Jim Clark's advice to him to just get out of that car and walk away from it, referring of course to the infamous Mickey Thompson car that took his life, and was the worst-looking accident in Indy history. To think he survived the accident, and died in the hospital a few hours later.......:(

Hope you're doing well, Eddie, and thanks for buying my book, and contributing to the thread of appreciation for it. I'm mighty grateful, my friend. Best regards, Brian Powell

On the subject of racing, I thought some of you might find this photo interesting:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...ng/bruce35.jpg

Thanks for the kind words, Brian. Both those autograph books were amazing, The NASCAR book even had a guy like Frenchman Jo Schlesser, who only made two career NASCAR starts (he finished 13th in the '64 Daytona 500) before being killed in the '68 French Grand Prix in a Honda that John Surteees refused to drive because he called it a potential "deathtrap."

The seller has listed all kind of amazing racing items in recent months. He has had a couple different autographs of Friday Hassler (killed at Daytona in 1972), LeeRoy Yarbrough (institutionalized in a mental hospital in 1980 and dead four years later), Marshall Teague (killed while attempting to set a closed-course speed record at Daytona in 1959), Red Byron (NASCAR's first champion died of a heart attack in 1960), Mark Donahue (killed at the '75 Austrian Grand Prix), Modified stars Richie Evans and Charlie Jarzombek (killed in 1985 and 1987, respectively, at Martinsville), Curtis Turner (killed in a plane crash in 1970), Bruce McLaren (killed testing in England in 1970), Pedro Rodriguez (killed in a sports car race in West Germany in 1971), Sprint Car driver Johnny Thomson (killed in Allentown, Pa., in 1960), Gordon Smiley (killed in a brutal 1982 Indy crash), Barney Oldfield (died in 1946), Rodney Orr (killed at Daytona in 1994), Al Holbert (killed in a 1988 plane crash), Bruce Jacobi (died in 1987 of injuries from a 1985 Daytona flip), Butch Lindley (died in 1990 of injuries in a 1985 DeSoto, Fla., crash) and Grant Adcox (killed at Atlanta in 1989)

I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, but I highly recommend Art Garner's book on the 1964 Indy 500, "Black Noon." The book is incredible, and debunks some of the long-standing myths surrounding the tragic '64 race. The families of Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald both endorsed the book. MacDonald's widow is still alive and contributed to the book. Garner used over 30 sources for the book, including every living driver from the '64 500.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Noon-Ye...rds=black+noon

Funny you should mention the Jim Clark quote. It has been several years since I have read the Garner book, but that is one of the things Garner discusses in the book. Garner indicated that the famous Clark quote may not have actually ever happened. Garner put an amazing amount of research into the book, and he could not find anyone who could confirm that the discussion ever happened (not even MacDonald's wife). Garner wrote in the book that Clark and MacDonald were acquaintances at best, and Clark did not have the type of personality to just go up to other racers and freely dispense advice.

Who knows what the truth really is?

Garner also went into depth on the career of MacDonald (and Sachs as well), and how a great racer has now been reduced to being known solely for causing the worst crash in Indy history. The Thompson cars had battled problems all month long with the front end lifting off the ground and becoming uncontrollable.

wow, dangerous sport for the fans

Yes, 20+ were killed.:(

Glad to see this thread getting some action again. SO much information and history, thanks!

I've had these cards a while and decided to throw them in with a submission of football cards I had going to PSA. Got them back recently...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6c...g=w755-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qE...Q=w791-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Qg...Q=w788-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/h8...=w1123-h637-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/im...Q=w385-h637-no

Eddie, it would have been nice if Mr. Garner could have pinned down the quote / conversation between Mr. Clark and Mr. MacDonald. I wonder if Jim observed the skittish nature of the Thompson car when Dave was driving it, and felt compelled to have a private conversation with him. Even if it wasn't Jim's nature to offer such advice, it seemed like everyone was disturbed by the cars even before the race. There are other factors. Dave's driving style was daring. He liked to hang it out and tiger. Mickey Thompson had thought he was being savvy by not ever topping up the tank during practice, nor allowing Dave to turn many complete laps in the erratic car, Mickey's reasoning being that he did not want his competitors to know what the car was capable of. As it was, Dave MacDonald was a great racer, but this was his first Indy 500. It all spelled doom. Dave needed experience in the car of many laps to get really comfortable with it. Also, as I recall reading in the feature article in SPORTS CARS INTERNATIONAL, Dave liked to hang it out. So, on the second lap Dave is rushing through the field to get to the front where he believed he could run, and the car has a completely full tank of fuel, which he was NOT accustomed to driving this thing with, and then he loses it as you well know coming out of the last turn.

I get sickened writing these words because after many years I became a big Dave MacDonald fan due to his work for Carroll Shelby and his Cobras, King Cobras, and the Cobra Daytona Coupe. Carroll Shelby was very, very upset about the loss of his driver and friend. The Daytona Coupe is the one of the most valuable American cars ever, based on its auction price several years ago.

Some of those names you mentioned----Marshall Teague, Fireball Roberts, Pedro Rodriguez, Mark Donohue, and Bobby Thomson----:(:(:(:(:(

It is indeed a cruel sport. The sight and sound of the cars, whether they're racing or right before your eyes, drives us car nuts on, I would say.

----Brian Powell

Brian, after you mentioned the video of the 1953 500, I went to YouTube and watched "The Hottest 500." The color footage is really clear for 1953. Marshall Teague was actually the driver in the black uniform who looked terrible upon climbing out of his car. That is not a criticism in any way,; just an observation that I would have thought Teague was the driver that passed away due to the heat. I had read in the past, however, that Scarborough's body temperature was 104 degrees when he climbed out of his car.

The Garner book talked about Eddie Sachs stating before the race that he did not want to be anywhere near the Thompson cars because he was worried they were a wreck waiting to happen. MacDonald passed six cars on the opening lap, then crashed on the second lap. The Garner book talks about Thompson not running a full fuel load all month long.

A couple of the more interesting contributors to the Garner book were Humpy Wheeler and Bobby Unser. Wheeler was attending his first 500, as a young tire rep for Firestone. The Sachs/MacDonald crash happened at the opposite end of the track from Wheeler, so all he could see was massive black smoke and flames high in the sky. For the next several minutes, Wheeler thought the grandstands were on fire and a replay of the 1955 Le Mans disaster had just occurred.

Bobby Unser was knocked out of the race in the Sachs/MacDonald inferno. Unser related that many of the other drivers in the field looked visibly sick by what had just happened, and he was pretty certain a couple of drivers did not have the stomach to continue on when the race would inevitably restart. Unser walked up and down pit lane telling car owners that if their driver did not want to restart the race, he was willing to take their place. Unser found no open seats, however.

Justus, maybe this is just a glitch on my end, but your images are not appearing for me.

Sometimes I bid on stuff that has the Wow factor. This panoramic I won not to long ago and want to contribute to the thread. I've copied and pasted Heritage's description

1910's Indianapolis 500 Panoramic Photograph. This Indianapolis 500 panoramic photograph pictures eleven vehicles with their drivers and team members lined up in front of a packed grandstand for an early installment of the iconic racing event. Panoramas from the early years of this race are hard to come by in any condition. The ones that have come up for sale are mostly aerial-type shots of the speedway. This one on offer here is one of the few (and most likely the earliest) which showcase the automobiles and the drivers. Measures 30.25x6.25". Some vertical creases, otherwise EX.

Wow! I assume that was a non sanctioned event or an event to showcase dragracing?

I use to follow NHRA religiously when we had ESPN and TNN but now all I get is reruns, occasionally. :mad:

Thanks Bored. I've checked it on Chrome and Safari, both signed into Net54 and not signed it, and they are showing for me. Anyone else having problems seeing the pics?

That is an incredible piece! Would love to have that framed on my wall.

Yes. It was March, 1969 at Yellow River Drag Strip, just east of Atlanta. Houston Platt loses control while racing Don Nicholson. I took the pic with a Polaroid camera.

I changed browsers from Chrome to Firefox on my desktop and opened this thread on my phone, but was unable to get your pictures to appear for me. Weird, the STP images you posted in post No. 85 still appear for me. Maybe the glitch is just on my end. No big deal. I am glad the thread has come back to life; this is my favorite thread on the board. :)

You are right, that Indy 500 panoramic that Jay posted is an awesome piece.

Wow! I didn't realize you took the picture. Not something I'd like to witness. :eek:

It was not a good afternoon.

Do these work better, Eddie?
<a href="https://ibb.co/dj4C1Q"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/kKK1vk/IMG_2876.jpg" alt="IMG_2876" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image cdn</a><br />
<a href="https://ibb.co/gYcAo5"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/b8Yi85/IMG_2877.jpg" alt="IMG_2877" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/hARgvk"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/cu4C1Q/IMG_2878.jpg" alt="IMG_2878" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/cM4ZFk"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/fvPqo5/IMG_2879.jpg" alt="IMG_2879" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/fq0kMQ"><img src="https://preview.ibb.co/eK8uFk/IMG_2880.jpg" alt="IMG_2880" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image cdn</a><br />

No, I don't imagine it was. Sorry you had to witness that. :(

Great thread. I know nothing about racing but very cool to hear these stories.

Great thread. I know nothing about racing but interesting to see these cards and hear these stories.

That works. :) Cool Marios. I know that price is determined by supply and demand, but it always surprises me that his '69 rookie card is not worth more -- given his worldwide accomplishments as an F1 world champion, Indy 500 winner and Daytona 500 winner. You'll never see someone do that again.

I have always liked the Sugar Daddy card of Evel Knievel because of the three images.

Thanks for checking out the thread. :)

I had never heard of this incident until you mentioned it here, even though I've been living in the Atlanta area over 30 years. So, out of curiosity I researched it some. To this day it is still the worst US racing disaster. Just a few clarifications: Huston Platt was racing Frank Oglesby, who was driving Don Nicholson's car, a Cougar. At the 1,000-foot mark, Platt heard a bang and let off the throttle and deployed the parachute. As this happened, an idiot in the crowd ran out onto the track to retrieve a beer can and was killed instantly when he was hit by the parachute. The impact to the parachute caused the car to veer wildly into the crowd, killing ten more people, injuring 40 more. One of the injured died a few days later in an Atlanta hospital, bringing the death total to 12.

[QUOTE=BruceinGa;1661320]It was not a good afternoon.[/Q

Since someone made reference to the Le Mans catastrophe, neither was the early evening of June 11, 1955. Really, no one single person was at fault. With the swiftly increasing speeds of the cars, the beautiful circuit had become unbelievably too dangerous at certain points on the course. The accident occurred at precisely such a spot. The spectator view was spectacular. As the tracked kinked, or turned slightly to the right, the width of the road shrinked just a tad.

A tad too much.

The worse case scenario.

Three cars were trying to get through this kink at the same time. All in their own way, a victim of circumstances.

Would some brave soul load up the image of Pierre Levegh's Mercedes, as it was filmed in mid-air, being shot by an amateur photographer whose arm or leg was broken in the crash, and whose film snapped at this instant. At least he came out alive. Eventually, the film was developed, and can actually be seen free on YOU TUBE.

Type:

The Worst Accident in Motorsports History (1955 Le Mans Disaster)

or

Le Mans 1955 accident: Raw footages of the crash in HD (read description)

I'm not getting my razzies from letting you in on this, merely to educate you about the absolute worst accident in automobile racing history. The film is extraordinary.

Numerous aftereffects occurred as a result of this catastrophe. Races were canceled. Racing was banned in Switzerland, which still holds today. Drivers suddenly or soon retired. The Mercedes-Benz company directors held a quick meeting, and seven hours after the accident, with their cars running a strong first and third, withdrew them from the race in honor and respect to those who perished, their bereaved families, and the many who were injured. For what it's worth, fans worldwide and vox populi understood and respected Mercedes for retiring their cars, with their lead car leading by 2 laps.

The other company refused to acknowledge ANY fault of its driver, and that car happened to win the race. Several photos taken of that driver after the event were not very flattering, and I know, deep, deep, deep down---he actually believed he had precipitated the accident. I read a mesmerizing first-hand account from Rob Walker in an early 90s Road & Track, where Rob encountered Mike Hawthorn at an enclosure / bar right after the accident. What Rob remembered Mike confessing is frankly haunting, and I am certain haunted Mr. Hawthorn the few years that he lived after the disaster.

Really, as I said before, there were several mitigating factors. The track was widened significantly for 1956, and the grandstands at that point moved back sufficiently to satisfy the officials who ran the race that such a tragedy would not re-occur. In the intervening years, many more barriers have been put up, and the cars have enough complicated spoilers and stablizers to make them much more controllable at speed. Be that as it may, racing is racing, and those cars are going over 200+ miles an hour. Anything could still happen, but the rules and regs and design of both the cars and the Le Mans circuit have been worked out extremely hard, to prevent another 11th of June 1955 from ever transpiring again.

Well, there have been a lot of accidents in motor racing history. As I said, the sight, sound, and smell of the racing cars are wondrous. The drivers really are a special breed of heroes.

Nice discussion.

As I mentioned to Eddie, I have never gravitated to racing cards, preferring models of the cars. After my dear Mother passed away in 1996, to deal with my grief and agony over losing her, I built a fantasy Dinky Toy of none other than the 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300SLR Le Mans racing sports car of Juan Manuel Fangio and Stirling Moss, car number 19 that was leading the race by two laps when it was withdrawn from the race. It took about 3 years of my free time, partly because I had to use an old John Day kit for a base. Those old kits required a LOT of work to make them look good. I stuffed it with a plethora of interior and exterior goodies and detail. I received major help from my modeler friend, Tim Dyke, from England. True, no Dinky Toy would ever have looked that good, but I took it from the standpoint of what I as a child would have loved to have seen on that exotic car. You see, my Mother and Dad gave me Dinky Toys as a kid for Christmas and birthdays. These got to my heart a few years before baseball cards were introduced to me.

I apologize for the long, long post. This is a very personal thing that means a great deal to me.

If you've read this far, thank you, sincerely, for listening to an old man who misses his dear Mother on Mother's Day.

Best regards, guys. ---Brian Powell

Great post, Brian. The 1955 Le Mans disaster also occurred against the backdrop of fierce nationalism. The German national anthem was not played prior to the race, and cars were painted colors based on the country of the manufacturer. The car of Pierre Levegh, who was killed in the crash, went into the crowd and officially 83 people were killed in the worst racing accident of all-time. Levegh's car disintegrated and caught fire upon entering the crowd. The dislodged engine, hood and front end assembly acted as a guillotine and decapitated over a dozen spectators. The disaster was made even worse when track workers doused the magnesium fueled inferno with water.

It has long been speculated that even more than 83 spectators actually died in the Le Mans Disaster.

As Brian mentioned, Mercedes was leading the race when team bosses elected to withdraw from the race several hours after the incident. Race organizers and Mercedes officials were keenly aware of the optics of a German manufacturer winning such a major race after a German car went into the stands and killed dozens of Frenchmen just a decade after World War II.

Who exactly was most at fault for the Le Mans Disaster has been debated for decades, and multiple books have been written on the topic. It is generally acknowledged that the Mercedes Levegh was driving was more car than he was able to handle, but perhaps Levegh was simply put in an impossible position in a split second. Eventual winner Mike Hawthorn usually receives much of the blame for causing the accident by abruptly darting into the pits, and Hawthorn allegedly acknowledged his role in causing the worst crash in racing history shortly after the incident occurred.

Famed racer Stirling Moss has said in the past that the problem with Le Mans at the time was that there were 120 drivers, 20 of whom were the best in the world. "The rest were idiots," said Moss of the amateur/sportsman drivers who were sprinkled throughout the field at Le Mans.

The race continued to its conclusion, at least in part because officials were concerned that the large crowd leaving the track all at once would clog up the roadways for ambulances trying to take the 100+ critically injured fans to hospitals. No announcement was ever made that anything out of the ordinary had occurred, and many fans elsewhere on the speedway grounds did not have any idea what had happened until after the race was over (several days later in some cases)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEk85gKJN6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz2VezfEWXQ

http://jalopnik.com/just-how-horrify...rts-1589382023 (this is an amazing article on the Le Mans Disaster)

Thanks for your kind words, Eddie. It took me a good while to type and edit the thread, but it was worth it. Somehow, I felt someone good at loading up You Tube videos would come to my rescue and do as I suggested. I'm not surprised in the least it was you. Thank you, my friend.

Oh, the finger pointing that went on, especially at poor Levegh. He really was made the scapegoat. While he was nowhere near as good as the two greatest drivers in the world at that moment, Juan Manuel Fangio and Stirling Moss, doing great battle with another of the top 20, Hawthorn, Levegh did very well with the 300SLR. He was getting better and better.

My aforementioned modeler friend, Tim Dyke, pointed out to me some years back that in the video you posted of the lead-up to the catastrophe, when Mike Hawthorn slammed on his brakes (powerful DISC brakes, mind you!) Austin Healey driver Lance Macklin had to stand on his brakes immediately to prevent smashing into him. However, Lance also pulled over gently, BUT HE PULLED OVER WAY TOO FAR, and so Pierre Levegh hardly had enough room to negotiate the slight bend and pass safely by Macklin. He almost made it, but instead of crunching in Macklin's tail end, it served as a launching pad...........:(

I watched the clip several times and Tim is absolutely correct. It takes some resolute deep honesty for an Englishman to admit this, too.

Also, lest anyone say anything they might regret, remember all this was happening at 150-160 miles per hour, with Macklin slightly down from his top speed of 145-150 when he braked. Remember in your life when someone hurriedly said to you," THINK FAST!", and tossed something at you at the same time? Reaction time for all of this was in seconds to milliseconds.

I just shake my head at the horror of the whole thing. The first 2 1/2 hours had been perhaps the best actual racing between 2 cars at the Sarthe (Le Mans). The battle between Fangio's Mercedes and Hawthorn's Jaguar was monumental. Everybody was having such a great time....

Eddie, after I wrote my thread response post, I went downstairs to gaze at my fantasy Dinky Toys Mercedes. It's been 17 years since I completed it, but I still get a big kick out of viewing it. Very fulfilling, that project.

Take care, my friend. If you ever want to set up a phone chat, PM me. Recently, another customer of mine and I spent a delightful 2 1/2 hours on the phone. I think we both needed it. ---Brian Powell

At the race we assumed it was Nicholson because his name was on the car. As you can see by my photo no one was retrieving a beer can, they were just over the fence so they could get a better view. I have newspaper clippings that state 20+ were killed that day and several others died later.
Maybe I don't remember correctly, I'll check into that.
It took me an hour to find the newspaper clippings. I was wrong, 11 died that day. It's odd that you get something in your mind and you could swear that it was right, until you see it in writing.

I can sure relate to that. Memory does funny things to you when you try to retrieve it 40 years later.:mad: However, when researching and writing my book on postwar regional baseball cards of 1947 - 1971, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN, I painstakingly checked and double-checked facts of all sorts, taped interview transcriptions, and so on----to get it right! A few times I was annoyed to discover I didn't remember "it" as it actually was, and the correction was made in time! So far, I've only found two typographical errors, which still enraged me, but then I had to console myself over the fact it's 478 pages in length. For those with tendonitis in their wrists, they will enjoy an E-book on a CD, as opposed to a heavy book to hold!

Don't feel bad, bro. The tragedy you've been recounting was flat-out bad, and in a disturbing way, parallels the '55 LeMans catastrophe in that spectators were jammed to the edge of the fence to get a better view. Looking directly right from where they were, they could see the speeding cars, for a few seconds, coming right at them....., just as the gentleman with the camera was, whose amazing footage was loaded up on You Tube, and linked here.

---Brian Powell

Thought you racing guys would like this. Just came across in an email.

http://www.auctionzip.com/auction-ca...log_NAJG4FQNR7

I love the Andretti Panini cards. They are in the top ten on my "want" list. I'll be fine with an ungraded, poor copy.

I wrote a post on my personal blog six days ago about a piece of Jimmy McElreath memorabilia. He passed away today at 89.

Also, if anyone is going to be in Indianapolis on race weekend, the Indy Memorabilia Show is the day before the race.

-kin

Awesome Jim McElreath piece. The man had a lot of sorrow in his life. McElreath 's son, Jim Jr., was a rising open wheel driver who was killed at age 23 in a Sprint Car at Winchester (Ind.) in 1977. His daughter, Shirley, married racer Tony Bettenhausen Jr. and was killed along with Bettenhausen in a 2000 plane crash.

I read in the past that when Jim Jr. was killed at Winchester, Jim Sr. took the car back to his home in Texas and left the car sitting as it was for years.

Here is a great Robin Miller profile of Jim McElreath that was posted a few hours ago.

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/14...eath-1928-2017

I just did a little internet reach and found his address (I wish it wasn't easy for people to find stuff like that). I knew he was also an Arlington resident. Went to the stepson's choir banquet Saturday night and apparently I was right there by him. I wish I could have met him one time and shaken his hand.

-kin

I missed out on one a couple of months ago that was in my sweet spot. Got the eBay email but when I saw it and clicked, it had sold. Alas.

-kin

I won the lot of Marhoefer Meats Indy cards at Sterling Auctions earlier this morning. The lot is actually a mix of 1962 and '63 cards (the distinguishing feature is the shape and location of the driver portrait on each card). The cards all show stains/discolorations from being included in packs of hot dogs. All the cards present poor to fair, but the big pick-up in the lot is a 1962 A.J. Foyt Marhoefer card. Foyt's card is one of the nicer cards in the lot.

I have wanted a Foyt Marhoefer card for a while now. There has been a beat up, hot dog stained Foyt Marhoefer card on eBay for a while now at the museum price of $795. :eek: Even with the hot dog stains, I am happy to pick up a Foyt Marhoefer card for a little over $100; they just don't come available very often.

There are nicer, unstained Marhoefer cards in the hobby that were presumably given out as hand outs and not placed in product packages. But like I said, any Foyt Marhoefer card has been on my want list for a while now. Marhoefer cards in general rarely appear at auction, and the same cards sit on eBay forever at sky-high BINs. The Foyt card on eBay is priced about 10 times what it would sell for at auction in that condition.

http://www.sterlingsportsauctions.co...-LOT39749.aspx

I was missing from this thread for awhile and am now trying to catch up.


I only moved to Texas three years ago. I lived in Indianapolis for almost a decade, which rekindled my love of IndyCar, specifically the 500.
I grew up in West Virginia and watched the 500 most years.
I got into NASCAR around 1995 or so, but my interest started waning in the early 2000s.

I think my dad wanted me to be more into cards and racing as a kid,
but I knew I was going to be a pro baseball player and wasn't interested.
Hindsight is always 20/20!

I've attended one F1 and one NASCAR race (both at IMS). I've attended the Indianapolis 500 three times as a fan and two other times was on the grounds. For two years that I worked for Lids and they were the official retailer of the IndyCar series, I was a part of the buying and merchandising team. Since moving to Texas, I've attended the Firestone 600 1+ times. I went in 2015 and last year was there for the first night that never started. I decided not to go back the next day because I wasn't feeling well and it was about 100 degrees with 500% humidity. Haven't decided yet if I'm going this year.

Congratulations, Eddie, on the Marhoefer Meat cards pick-up. Even I have heard of these tough-to-get racing cards. There's a guy in Columbia City, Indiana that deals in a lot of the post-war regional / food cards. Off-hand, I cannot recall his name, but he knows very well of how much racing collectors cherish these cards---by the impressive prices I seem to remember him charging!:rolleyes:

No different than the baseball card collectors obsessed with the "free prizes" in, or on, hot dog packages.:D

Have a great weekend, my friend. Again, congrats on the pick-up, especially the A. J. Foyt. One of my favorite models I own is the IXO 1/43 diecast of the 1967 Ford Mark IV that AJ shared with Dan Gurney to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Great race, great-looking car, great driver pairing--and the only time they were paired together.

---Brian Powell

Thanks, Brian. I have about 25-30 cards on my want list and within my budget. The two racing cards currently at the top of my want list are a 1986 SportsStar Photo-Graphic Dale Earnhardt and a T36 Barney Oldfield. You wouldn't think a card from 1986 would be that tough, but the Earnhardt card from that set is short-printed; they just don't come available very often. Aside from a cheesy card in the 1983 Uno set and some early postcards, the Sports-Star Photo-Graphics card is the Earnhardt card to have, IMO.

Since we're close to the topic, it's interesting how racing tragedies change the sport and occasionally history in general.

While it's not modern racing, this one had a major effect beyond the sport.
A sport called motorpacing was very popular before WWI especially in Europe. It's basically a combination of bicycle and motorcycle racing. The bicycle rider follows the motorcycle around the track at high speed. Typically around 40, but sometimes a lot higher. The riders were very well paid.

On June 18, 1909 at Berlin, one of the motorbikes - then huge specialized things often with a driver and a heavy guy on the back to make a bigger windscreen- along with he bike rider went into the crowd and caught fire.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=22552

9 killed and by some accounts 52 injured.
Prussian authorities banned motorpacing, and overall the sport lost much of its popularity.
It had always been dangerous, but was becoming less manageable. (The berlin track was also massively substandard for that sort of racing even by the loose standards of the time. )

As the sport became less popular, and fewer races were held, the riders began moving on to other things to make money. Some went into racing motorcycles, others got in an entirely new field that promised similar money with occasionally less risk. Early aviation! Many motorpace riders became pilots doing the rounds of the air shows. Best of all, the money was appearance money and a plane that actually flew wasn't necessarily a requirement. Many did fly, and at the time, that was also risky. Those early aviators provided a core of experienced pilots when WWI put and end to the air show circuit.

The sport survived, had a decent revival in the 30's as part of 6 day races, and is still done today.

Here's a motorpace bike from probably the early 30's.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=15693

Steve B

So many of the safety innovations that are now taken for granted in racing came about due to a specific tragedy:

* Two-time defending NASCAR champion Joe Weatherly was killed in 1964 when his head struck a barrier at Riverside (Calif.) Raceway. Weatherly was not wearing a shoulder harness nor using a window net. Following Richard Petty's spectacular flip at Darlington (S.C.), in which his head actually hit the pavement during the crash, window nets became mandatory to prevent a driver's head from moving outside the cockpit.

* The 1964 Indy inferno that killed both Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald resulted in Indy requiring at least two pit stops the following year. What that rule did was eliminate the use of gasoline, since there was no longer any point in using the more fuel efficient (and highly flammable) gasoline.

* Fireball Roberts' fiery fatal crash at Charlotte (N.C.) six days prior to the Sachs/MacDonald double fatality resulted in the requirement of a fuel-cell inner-liner to prevent catastrophe in the event of a ruptured fuel cell. Roberts' death also led to NASCAR requiring drivers to wear flame-retardant coveralls when racing.

The deaths of Sachs, MacDonald and Roberts also led to more effort being put into developing better flame-retardant substances/uniforms. Dupont was at the forefront of developing fire-retardant Nomex that is still used in modern racing uniforms.

* Billy Wade's 1965 death while tire testing at Daytona (Fla.) led to the modern racing safety harness. Wade was killed when the lap belt he was using compressed his intestines and caused them to rupture. The solution was a third belt that attached to the floor of the car and prevented the lap belt from riding up and compressing a driver's intestines in the event of a crash.

Wade's death also led to the development of a better tire inner-liner in the event of a tire blowout.

* Jim Hickman's fatal stuck throttle at the Milwaukee (Wis.) Mile in 1982 led CART to instantly require a "kill switch" on the steering wheel that would shut off power when pressed. NASCAR took nearly 20 years (and the deaths of Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin due to stuck throttles) to mandate the same requirement.

* Most recently, the death of Dale Earnhardt and numerous other drivers led to racing organizations large and small to require the HANS Device (or a similar head and neck restraint system) to greatly reduce the chance of a basilar skull fracture.

Superb post, Eddie, as always. Honestly, I was not aware of several of the cause of death accidents and the resultant solutions that bettered the safety of all drivers (Billy Wade and Jim Hickman incidents).

I have often pointed out to people that racing has developed numerous mandatory safety innovations and efficiency improvements. One of my favorites was used on the winning car of the inaugural 1911 Indianapolis 500. That car, the Marmon Wasp, was fitted with-----the first rear view mirror.;)

---Brian Powell

Thanks, Brian. The Jim Hickman story came from Dr. Steve Olvey's book. Olvey mentioned repeatedly in his book that NASCAR was a donkey series safety-wise right up until Earnhardt's death in 2001. In the 1970s, the doctors staffing some NASCAR tracks were so sketchy that A.J. Foyt paid out of his own pocket to have Dr. Olvey in his pit area whenever Foyt ran a NASCAR race and Dr. Olvey was available. Basically, the main requirement for being a doctor staffing a NASCAR race in the 1970s was that the doctor would work for free.

At some 1970s Cup races, the most qualified doctor servicing the race would sometimes be an optometrist or other doctor woefully unqualified to deal with any type of traumatic injury should the need arise. Foyt was terrified of being critically injured at a NASCAR race and having an eye doctor decide whether or not an arm or a leg needed to be amputated.

Olvey also related a story about Foyt's pathological fear of the color green (like many old school racers). Olvey talked about accompanying Foyt to a 1970s Cup race and Olvey stopping at a local convenience store the morning of the race to purchase a cooler and some sodas for the day's event. Naturally, the cooler was green. Shortly after arriving at the track, Olvey heard Foyt ranting and raving and swearing before taking a tire iron to the unattended cooler that had suddenly appeared in his pit area. When asked by Foyt if he knew whose green cooler that was, Olvey simply shrugged and said he did not have any idea.

Here is are several different articles in this link that talk about Billy Wade's crash and how it led to modern racing seatbelts.

http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Billy_Wade.htm

I picked up 33 of these Fleer AHRA cards from a member in a trade. I know very little about them but when I saw them I knew they had to be mine. Brought back many memories of watching drag racing as a kid.

Great thread guys, a big thank you to everyone that posted, awesome info.

Picked up some more cards for my T36 set!

Rolling 7s.

Congratulations, Kin. Sweet blog---well done. ---Brian Powell

I finally had time to scan my Foyt Marhoefer card. The lot I won at Sterling are my first Marhoefer cards. The cards are thick, rigid cardboard; that makes sense since most of the cards were using as a backing for packs of wieners.

Cards do exist that were never placed in product packages, but all the cards in the lot I won were definitely inserted in packages. The cards may not be the nicest, but a Foyt Marhoefer is tough to come by in any condition.

If anyone in this thread in interested in a type card sample other than A.J. Foyt, I would sell an example for $20 net delivered.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psgpu7xspn.jpg

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psqi6afcqz.jpg

Congrats on picking up that AJ. It's certainly in the top 10 of cards I want. I don't have any of the Marhoefer cards yet. I also really want the Lloyd Ruby. I've read a couple of books on him and have become a fan even though I never saw him race.

-kin

Thanks, Kin. Congrats on your recent T36 pick ups as well. I enjoy the write-ups you do about each card on your blog. Nice to see your blog has some other followers, based on the people who left comments about your T36s. :)

I would like to pick up a Eddie Sachs Marhoefer card if I ever saw one at auction (he lived and is buried only about 45 minutes from me). Sachs is such a sad figure in racing history. He was leading the Indy 500 with three laps to go in 1961, but decided to pit out of the lead when he felt a tire coming apart. He ultimately finished second to Foyt that year. The Sachs quote after deciding to give up the lead with three laps to go in the '61 race was made all the more eerie after he was killed with Dave MacDonald in the Indy inferno three years later:

"I'd sooner finish second than be dead," Sachs said after the '61 race.

Not sure if you listen to podcasts, or to the weekly "Trackside" radio show out of Indianapolis. During May, they posted some Indy 500 in 60 (minutes) episodes on their iTunes page. The '61 race was one of them. I enjoyed listening to the old radio calls.

Any idea about what this card is? Appears to be 1967 Indy "jet/turbine" car #40 driven by Parnelli Jones car owner Andy Granatelli. Card is blank backed 4.5 inches X 2.5 inches.
Larry
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=22967

Very nice card, Larry! That's one on my wish list.

It is the 1970 Fleer Dragstrips "card."

Beckett's set information: "Fleer produced this 10-card set primarily as backers for their Dragstrips stickers. With each 5-cent wax pack, collector's received one of these cards and a group of automotive stickers. The cards are oversized (approximately 2-1/2" by 4-1/2") and blankbacked as are the sticker sheets. The black and white cards feature uncaptioned photos of top racers with an emphasis on Andy Granatelli and the STP IndyCar race team. We've assigned card numbers according to alphabetical order."

Jones is one of those racers I admire so much because he raced just about anything on four wheels.

Thanks for the info Kin. Bargain box find at the National....
Larry

Awesome! I'm also looking for the Lloyd Ruby (car) from that set but haven't seen it. I don't believe these are too common, so great find!

Sucks that I lost all my images in this thread with Photobucket going to a pay service. When I have time, I will have to move my images to another photo hosting site.

I have been at nine of 11 cards for the 1972 STP for a while now. I was pumped to see a lot of nine different drivers (10 cards total) show up on eBay a couple days ago. I still need Bobby Allison and Charlie Glotzbach to complete the set, both of which were contained in the lot. Allison is especially tough to find.

The lot started as an auction with a $250 minimum bid, and I saw that several people were asking the seller to end the auction and make it a BIN. The seller initially declined to do so, but I now see that the lot sold as a BIN for $450. :(

I am disappointed by that, and the seller definitely left money on the table with the BIN. The Allison card alone is a $300-500 card, and several of the other cards are $60-100 cards. I know when I bought my two Lorenzen cards from the set, that seller told me that people were messaging him offering him anywhere from $300 to $750 for cards that ultimately sold for $1,500 total at auction.

Somebody got themselves a great deal by convincing the seller to take $450 for the lot. The seller of this lot didn't really seem to know very much about the set. He did not know the set actually contains two Fred Lorenzen cards and is an 11-card set. I would have put in a snipe for a couple hundred more than the lot sold for if the seller had let the auction play out. :(

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-The-STP...vip=true&rt=nc

That is really irritating, Eddie. I am so sorry for you, as you make it plain to us that these cards do not show up that often. The dealer did not know what he had, and the money the character waved was probably a lot more than he thought he'd get for them. Now, he's out a couple hundred bucks and his eBay integrity is very harmed. Your story underscores how desirable the STP cards are to the right people. Again, I'm sorry, bro; the auction should not have gone down the way it did.

Out of curiosity, how could you have known "that several people were asking the seller to end the auction and make it a BIN"?

Hang in there, friend. Maybe the sale will flush out some fresh STP cards. Keep close watch; then, you'll have a collector's edge!

---Brian Powell

At the bottom of the listing, where people ask any questions they may have for the seller, there were two separate questions in which people asked the seller to change the auction to a BIN. The seller replied both times that he was not interested in doing that.

When I bought my Lorenzen cards, the seller told me that when multiple people were giving him offers that were all over the map and trying so hard to get him to end the auction early, he knew that the people messaging him were trying to get the cards for far less than they were worth.

I also received a PM from another board member on here stating they were surprised at the $450 BIN price and that he would have also bid more than that if the listing had continued as an auction. Maybe my snipe would have lost anyway, but it is disappointing that the listing ended early.

Now I understand, Eddie. Thanks. Occasionally, I have glanced down an entire listing, but with the cheaper stuff I buy these days, it's usually a simple BIN.

Again, another sordid chapter among eBay vendors / conniving buyers. I hope you get another chance soon, and with even better specimens of what you're hunting for.

---Brian Powell

I didn't want to out the auction while it was still in progress, but an A.J. Foyt Marhoefer card sold on eBay for $255 last night. Like I wrote earlier in the thread, i had never seen a Foyt Marhoefer card up for auction other than in a compete set in about six years of looking prior to one being included in a small lot at Sterling Auctions earlier this year.

I did not bid on the one on eBay, since the card also has the same hot dog stains as mine from Sterling. But Foyt Marhoefer cards are very tough, even when they are stained with hot dog juice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Marhoef...19.m1438.l2649

I believe I have written this on here before, but I have been a huge dirt-track racing fan all my life. That is my first racing love. My parents began taking me to dirt-track races when I was only a couple months old. As a result, I see lots of dirt-track Sprint Car, Late Model and Modified races each season.

I have shared the information with a couple other posters on here in the form of PMs, but Sprint Car driver Harli White is just an amazing story and worth checking out for anyone with even a passing interest in racing.

White is now 21 years old and races 360 cubic inch Sprint Cars on the American Sprint Car Series (ASCS) national tour. In her first race, as a 12-year-old in 2008, she flipped her Micro Sprint and was burned over 50 percent of her body. The only reason she didn't die in the inferno that engulfed her car was that fellow racer Donnie Ray Crawford saw that track officials had emptied their hand-held fire extinguishers as the fire still raged. Crawford got out of his car and pulled White out of her burning car.

Crawford was then subsequently murdered a little over three years later when his mentally unstable grandfather shot him in the family home.

White's story is just incredible. When none of the hospitals local to the Oklahoma City area could adequately treat the severe burns she suffered, the Shriners Children's Hospital of Galveston (Texas) agreed to treat her. She went through six months of skin grafts and therapy to treat her burns. Even several years after the accident, she has had to undergo subsequent surgeries since skin grafts do not naturally stretch as a person grows the way a person's normal skin does.

There have been lots of drivers who have suffered devastating injuries in a racecar over the years, be it burns or paralysis or loss of limbs, but those drivers were almost universally grown men who knew the risks for which they were signing up. not a 12-year-old girl.

White's story is terrible in all kinds of ways: Her Micro Sprint did not have a fuel bladder to contain the fuel when the car's fuel cell ruptured. Over fifty years ago, NASCAR superstar Fireball Roberts died for the same reason. Such an inferno should not have happened in the year 2008. White was also wearing a normal, cotton T-shirt under her racing uniform instead of fire-retardant Nomex clothing. The safety standards at the Micro track she was racing at were substandard. Track officially were not wearing fire-retardant uniforms, so they were powerless to go into the fire and pull her to safety when their hand-held fire extinguishers were empty. Just the basics of a 12-year-old racing a Micro Sprint makes me cringe.

But how does she come back from such awful injuries in her first race to race again, especially on a national Sprint Car tour.

Anyway, my previous post gave a quick background of White's story. I urge people to check out the profile ESPN did of her last year. It is hard to watch without tearing up a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvGlvkH2d-8

Here is White's racing Twitter account: The description she uses on her racing Twitter account is "Saved by the Grace of God, Donnie Ray Crawford and Shriners Hospital Galveston, Texas." She still does lots of speaking engagements on behalf of the Shriners and burn units.

https://twitter.com/harliwhiteracin?...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Here is her other Twitter account, which she also uses to talk about racing:

https://twitter.com/Harli17w

Check out the pictures of what White's back and legs still look like after being burned so badly as a 12-year-old. Warning: the pictures are shocking.

https://jamespratt.photoshelter.com/...00YxoH3YO5sBU/

https://jamespratt.photoshelter.com/...00YxoH3YO5sBU/

https://jamespratt.photoshelter.com/...00YxoH3YO5sBU/

Here is the Facebook page for her racing team. She has more pictures on her page, and is taking a rare weekend off from racing this weekend to tell her story at a pair of church services.

https://www.facebook.com/harliwhiteracing/

There is also another one on eBay right now...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/152679867851

That one has been on eBay for a long time. The price is a bit...optimistic on that one. LOL :)

And the nine-driver STP set that was bought as a BIN when the auction ended early has now reappeared on eBay for $799. (sighs)

That is close to market value of the cards, and the cards would have sold at something close to that at auction. But it is a bummer to see someone convince a seller to end an auction early, only to quickly relist the lot online at nearly double the price. I know things like that happen all the time on eBay (and even on here). But card flippers are usually not as blatant about it with racing cards because it is a thin market without many high-dollar cards.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-1972-STP-R...wAAOSwI4BZtEyX

Just found this thread (normally only read the non-sports side), but since I was mentioned a couple of times, thought I would offer some information.

Marhoefer has been mentioned many times in this thread. Here is my known checklist:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Mar..._checklist.htm

Here is another link to my website listing a few automobile and racing sets:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Automobilecards.htm

This list NEEDS a significant amount of updating, but as one grows older, one realizes that time is one's most valuable asset!

Jon.

Great to have you join the thread, Jon. So much of what I know about various racing sets is because of your posts over on the non-sports board and your website. :)

Glad you were able to use my efforts.

Unfortunately, automobile/motorcycle racing is the red-headed step-child of the card collecting hobby. :(

The sports collectors shun us, as evidenced by the sections available on this forum (even cricket, but no racing) ;)

And it doesn't really fit into non-sports, but the non-sports folks seem to tolerate us as it semi-fits due to automobile or motorcycle cards which are non-sports.

The amount of activity on this thread definitely shows an interest in the topic. :):D

Maybe, in a perverse sense, it is a good thing for we collectors that there is no more interest. Can you imagine the cost of some of the cards if suddenly the baseball folks all started collecting racing??? Some of the auto racing cards are just plain RARE Some make the T-206 Wagner seem like a "common"! Have collected these things for 53 years. Have virtually all the USA printed prior to 1996 (seemed like a good time to just specialize on certain sets/drivers, and stay away from the artificially low production "collector" items). But still missing one of the Say No to Drugs set.

I also collect stamps, and a deceased friend who was a major stamp dealer had the best (opinion) quote about the scarcity of some of this stuff. His comment: "Jon, not only do you have to wait for someone to die to acquire some of these stamps; you need to waiting in the driveway with cash to negotiate with the heirs!".

Jon.

Good post Jon. I have written often on here that one of the reasons I like collecting racing that there are only a few cards that individually sell for over $500; there aren't any $10,000+ cards. I love the obscure and the impossible to find, even if a card is only worth $100-200.

On the whole, I love non-sports cards or cards outside the big four sports. There is nothing at all wrong with collecting T206 or '33 Goudey, but how many times can a person see the same Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth card listed for sale or at auction?

I know baseball will always be king when it comes to cards, but I could never compete price-wise when it comes to acquiring extreme rarities. With racing cards, I can.

I actually see parallels between racing cards and wrestling cards. This board has some of that niche's top collectors posting on here, and even some extreme rarities of huge stars can be had at prices within reach of collectors. That genre of the hobby really seems to have taken off in recent years, as people are starting to appreciate what is rare and what isn't. Same thing for racing. Unless you actually follow the '72 STP set, who would know that the Lorenzen with car card is a virtual impossibility to find.

I don't remember if I posted this publicly or just in a PM with a couple board members. But when I won the auction for my Lorenzen with car card, I met the seller in person, since he only lived 30 miles from me. He also offered me a Lorenzen portrait card. I had lost the auction for the portrait card he was selling, but he said he had another one.

When I met the seller, he told me that he had won an automobile lot at an estate auction that included one Lorenzen with car card and 12 of the Lorenzen portrait cards. I agreed to pay $450 for the portrait card, and my heart kind of sank when he told me how many of them he had found. The seller did not have any idea what the cards were and initially thought they were worthless garbage after being unable to find any information online.

The Lorenzen portrait card used to be very tough to find as well, but with the addition of 12 new copies into the hobby all at once, anyone willing to pay the buy it now price for that card on eBay can have one. I know the same thing happens a couple times a year with 100-year old baseball cards, but it is always amazing when such a "find" of rare cards occurs.

STP set
 

I have posted in other areas, but still in wonder as to why there is no Paula Murphy card in the STP set.

Rather than post all of the "evidence" why there should be, I will allow those who might have an interest to discover this on their own.

Jon.