I thought the $61 price tag on a Cloughan error PSA 3 tonight on eBay was interesting. There were really only two bidders over $13, but a stronger price than I was expecting to see. I did have a $30 snipe on the card which never got triggered.

Anyone else here bidding on that one? Thoughts on the $61 final price? Maybe a few more people learning about this card?

I was the underbidder, I thought you might have been the winner lol. I figured posting about it would cause the price to go up a little, but I'm honestly surprised I lost this time. I've bid several hundred % of the second highest bids on the last few T218 errors. I figure this price is probably more of an anomaly; someone else just really wanted one. The market for these still seems to be incredibly thin.


EDIT: Just for frame of reference, I bought a Cloughan on eBay last year for a bid of $32.11. This is the only time, I believe, that the card has transacted publicly in a listing that correctly identified the error. I doubled my bid on this one, but someone else did too. The next one or two might go a bit high as well, but I don't think it will last. The market is very thin for these, with a handful of master set collectors and variation fans that might really care. If I hadn't placed my "overpay" bid, it would have sold for half of what it did. Sorry for driving the price up, to whoever won :)


EDIT 2: Just for tracking, attaching the card image of the PSA 3 that just sold. I believe all the known examples are now posted in this thread: the 3 copies I own and showed, the 2 Scooter729 has and posted, and now this one. This makes a known population of 6 cards so far, all with 649 backs. Would love to see any others you folks may have or know about. I didn't see a second copy until over a decade after acquiring the first one, and now 3 have appeared for public sale in the last 3 years, 2 of which were not identified as a variation by the seller. Interesting how the cycles work with availability.

I'm guessing the population on this card is much higher than the 6 we know about - and if PSA ever started grading the slabs with the variations on these three errors, you'd see a lot more come out of the woodwork. And I would expect the prices to jump then, probably $100+ on Gillis and Cloughan (Trudenbach seems more common).

But for now though, it'll remain a niche item for us T218 master guys....

I was about to bid $35 on this when the price shot up to $61. I don’t need one that badly. Maybe the buyer is the guy that’s trying to sell the Gillis cards for $3000. This would be a real bargain for him. I guess we’ll know when it gets listed for $5000.

Only $5,000? lol.

Scooter - I sure hope PSA doesn't start grading them and the registry guys involved, I'd like to be able to keep picking these variations up cheap.

Since this thread has kind of become the hub for T218 discussion, I'll post some of my other oddities, rarities and info here. One of the more interesting cards is a T218 M.J. McGrath with a recurring print defect/variation depending on how you define things.

When I bought the first one, I thought it was a one of a kind card, not a printing variation, but just the result of someone at the factory handling a still wet sheet before it dried. Then I found a second card, both with the same back (Mecca, Factory 30). I now think there was probably some dust/dirt/debris/something else obscuring part of the printing plate, resulting in the smudge look. I'd think there are probably several more out there, but have never seen besides the two I have. I'd love to know if any of you have this variant, or another card with the same issue.

There's a lot of oddities shared in this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=251642

Trubenback M30 Error
 

Hey Fellas!

won the T218 lot in Sterling auctions, came in today. I did a quick run thru and found the Trubenback Mecca Factory 30 Error :-)


unfortunately no Tolstois.... but hopefully some other commons I need to fill some holes in the master quest once i can go thru them...

TTYL!

Cliff

Attachment 380244

Attachment 380245

I’ve bought 2 lots recently and buried in each was a Gillis factory 30 error card and also a Trudenbach error card. Maybe these aren’t as tough as we thought! Or maybe I’m just really lucky.

Attachment 380275

Always funny how things pop up and disappear with time. Took me many years to even get images of the Fact. 30's, and then this year they seem to be just littered everywhere like commons. I have also added another Trudenbach Mecca 30 as well as a third Cloughan Mecca 649 to my collection since my last pic in this thread.

I'll still buy any of your guys extra's! Lol

T218 Flanagan - Blue Crop Marks
 

Hey Fellas!

scored a few more T218z for the master set. Noted I have 4 different Flanagans, from three different factories, and all have the same Blue Crop Marks in the lower right and lower left corners!

check it out:

Attachment 397547

Attachment 397548

Attachment 397549

TTYL!

Cliff

I checked my Flanagan and it has the same marks, just not as easy to spot, and I found 3 other cards with similar marks.

These printers marks are present on, I think, every card in the first series, certainly every vertically oriented one. The horizontal images have them closer to the center of the card sometimes. The exact placement varies slightly, and the clarity of the marks varies heavily from card to card, with some being difficult to even spot and other times clear as day.

Documenting another Cloughan, that sold for $43.56 in January. I believe this makes 7 identified Cloughan's. Factory 649 again, leaving the master set at 630 cards. I still think the 3 series 1 spelling errors were all probably corrected at different times in the print run. Cloughan very early, Gillis soon after that, and Trudenbach significantly later, though still early in the overall printing as it is a small minority of his cards.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-T218-M...72.m2749.l2649

Here’s another one that I bought on EBay just a few weeks before that one was listed. It went unnoticed so I got it for less than $4.
Another factory 649. Still looking for a factory 30.

Attachment 448532

$4 is a heck of a deal! That makes 8 I am aware of. Who knows how many are out there. Each one would make it seem more likely that the error carried over into the very first print run of the factory 30 backs like Gillis/Gilles. Kind of hope it doesn't exist so that I can maybe finish the master one day, if it exists it's one tough card.

Well, now we know it does exist! I assume one of you guys bought it. Congrats!


Attachment 481896

It should be in the mail on the way to me. I was hoping you wouldn’t notice so I could get away with it cheap instead ;). There are 10 factory 649’s I’ve seen or have been posted here or emailed/texted to me (I don’t want to call that “known”, but it’s something of a count to compare relatively at least…).

Johnson Green Hassan Series 2 notation factory 30 is confirmed recently as well by another member. My master checklist of confirmed cards is at 632, of which I have 618 in hand to ‘prove beyond doubt’ + this one. I think this Cloughan was the last card I had at a fairly high percentage chance it could exist but was up unconfirmed, but what the heck do I know?

I’ll email you my latest checklist sheet, it’s been awhile sir.

I figured it was you Greg! Shoot me the list of cards you need and if I have any I’ll let you have them since I’m not going for the master set. Congrats on being so close to having the master set - I doubt that anybody has ever done it before (with the 6 error cards).
Thanks for the confirmation of the green Johnson H2 f30 card. I thought that it must exist as well as the M1 f30. If you have a scan of it I would love to see it too. Thanks!

Sent you another probably too lengthy email sir, with the latest from my end I’ve seen and a picture of the recent Johnson card. It ain’t real until someone can produce a photo!

These large sets with little pre-existing proper research make the hardest part of the master just checklisting it. “How do we know when we’re done?” is more than rhetorical. It’s also 90% of the fun, personally. If 632 isn’t the magic number, we can’t be more than a few cards off at this point. So close…

Once I figure out a good way to scan and sort the bulk commons efficiently I’d like to put together a visual checklist with the direct evidence of each possible card.

I was watching that as well - it sat at $10 until the final day and I figured it would jump, but wasn't quite expecting that much!

Glad it went to you, Greg - one step closer!

Thank you Scott! I am very excited this card appeared at all, I've been trying to find out if it's real since the 649 was discovered a long time ago. Sort of a 'budget white whale' in and of itself separate from a master chase.

I may not reach 100%, but 98% ain't too bad and 3 of the 13 left are fairly easy. Thank you for all the help and guidance gentlemen, for listening to my rants, theories and projects about this set and figuring out what there even is to chase together, and for the generosity in sharing, sending or selling your cards this way. I wouldn't be nearly this close if I was still solely trolling eBay listings. Cliff, Dave, Scott, George, David L (if you're still lurking) thank you gentlemen. This little side board is great.

Wow
 

Outstanding and First Class!

we're all rooting for you to finish this Marathon :-)

Cliff

PS - please dont find any more new cards to add to the list.... lol...

If you mark my emails as spam, the checklist will stop growing ;). Love collecting this set with you my friend!

Hello everyone on this thread. I have read with great interest all of the posts and am impressed with all of the expertise and camaraderie.

I have recently come into possession (they were gathered by a past family member) of a booklet of "Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter" cards (some labelled Series 2). I am looking for information regarding them.

Most of them do not have any adds on their backs (does that mean that they are Canadian cards? which would make sense given where in the family they were collected).

I think most of the cards are in decent condition (so any information concerning proper handling of them would also be appreciated).

I also have a bunch of "Cowboy Series" and "Indian Life in the '60'S" and one "Wild Animals of Canada" cards.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks

Hey Dave - welcome! Definitely sounds like you came upon the Canadian version of the T218s, which are known via the catalog code of C52. We've got a long thread going about these as well:

C52 thread

The C52 cards are very hard to find, compared to the T218s - though there aren't a lot of folks assembling sets of these (I'm one who is though!). There typically may be a small premium over the T218s for the C52s. The Jack Johnson is definitely the prize of the set, and likely would sell for a few hundred even in rough shape, and just go up from there!

Would love to hear / see more about what you have, and potentially would have some interest in these if you're looking to sell!

Scott

And sorry, I don't really know anything about the Cowboy and other series you had mentioned....

Pics would help, but the Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter Series cards without the brand advertisements on back are probably C52 cards, the Canadian (presumed Canadian, at least) version of T218. It was issued in 2 series, the first of which is primarily cards from the first series of T218 (and a smattering of second series cards, with duplicated card numbering on reverse). The second series of C52 mimics the third series of T218. C52 (whether it should be part of T218 or a separate set is arguable) is tougher than Hassan or Mecca backed cards. They are not super valuable, as there are not a lot of collectors of them, but they can bring a good premium and are fairly tough cards, particularly if someone is looking for a specific subject.

The Cowboy Series cards would be T53. They were issued with Hassan backs from two factories, 49 cards to a set. Going off memory, I believe they are a late 1909 set. Some clones of the artwork were issued in subsequent years, so if your cards have different advertising form Hassan they are from one of these cloned sets.

The Indian Life in the 60's series would be T73, 50 in a set. Issued with Hassan, and US Marine. US Marine backs are much tougher and carry a good premium.

T53 and T73 are not very valuable, but they are very cool cards. I have a set of T53 from both factories. Nice find!

Adding that the non-sports side hosts a gallery of card sets that make it easy to confirm what you have.

T53: http://www.moviecard.com/gallery/tcards/t53.html

T73: http://www.moviecard.com/gallery/tcards/t73.html

Thanks for the quick and helpful replies. It makes sense that these cards are Canadian as they came down through my Canadian family.

I have 50 of the “Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs” cards, including Jack Johnson, with no tobacco adds. I also have 17 “Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs” cards. And I have two Hassan cards (not mentioning “Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter”, Lawson Robertson & Robert Cloughen.

Here is a list of what I have.

Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 1 Jack Johnson
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 2 James J. Jeffries
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 3 Clarence B. Tippett
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 4 James P. Sullivan
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 5 Walter Bursch
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 6 Unk Russell
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 7 Frank Riley
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 8 Packey McFarland
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 8 H. E. Gissing
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 9 James Crowley
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 10 S. P. Gilles
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 11 Andrew Glarner
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 12 Battling Hurley
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 13 Melvin W. Sheppard
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 14 Lou Manley
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 15 Ray Ewry
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 16 Frank C. Irons
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 17 Jim Stewart
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 18 Robert Cloughen
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 19 W. C. Robbins
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 20 Thomas O'Callaghan
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 21 Harry Hillman
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 22 Martin Sheridan
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 23 C. M. Daniels
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 24 Johnny Coulon
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 25 Platt Adams
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 26 George J. Obermeyer
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 26 George J. Obermeyer
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 27 Tom Collins
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 30 Jack (Twin) Sullivan
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 31 Jack Eller
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 32 John Flanagan
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 33 Emilo Lunghi
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 34 Jem Driscoll
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 35 Eddie Walsh
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 36 R. E. Frizelle
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 37 Chas J. Bacon Jr.
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 38 Dan Ahearne
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 39 Owen Moran
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 40 Willie Lewis
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 41 Billy West
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 42 Johnny Marto
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 43 Jimmy Gardner
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 44 Harry Lewis
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 45 Stanley Ketchell
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 47 Walter Lee
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 48 Abe Attell
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 49 Sailor Burke
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 50 Jimmy Walsh
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series - 50 designs 59 Chas K. Hamilton
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 53 Matty Baldwin
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 65 Chas Eyton (Referee)
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 67 Patsey Kline
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 68 Frankie Conley
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 69 Frank Klaus
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 71 Johnny Summers
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 72 Johhny Summers
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 73 Thure Johansson
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 74 Abel Kiviat
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 75 E. J. Sweeney
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 81 John Daly
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 84 George Sutton
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 90 Thomas Hueston
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 93 Ora Morningstar
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 95 Albert Cutler
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 97 Calvin Demarest
Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter - Series No 2 - 50 designs 100 Lee R. Johns
Lawson Robertson
Robert Cloughen


These last two have the Hassan Cork Tip Cigarette add on the back and no card number.

Thanks for the information and listings on the Cowboy and Indian Life cards. I will look through that list. I have 14 of the Cowboy cards and 25 of the Indian Life cards.

I may be interested in selling at some point – I will be discussing this information with my two brothers.

I could post some pictures – let me know if any of my cards would have particular interest in having a picture posted. I will probably shift over to the C52 thread as it seems more appropriate for my set – but let me know if that makes sense?

Johnson C52
 

Dave,

Wow! It's been a long time since I've seen a collection of C52's this large. As others have said, the Johnson card is the key card, and you have one. I'm not sure if you have checked the pop reports, but only 7 have been graded to date. That number is a bit misleading to me because I'm aware of a few more in private collections, at the moment. I have only come across a few C52 Johnson's offered for sale, over the last 14 years of my collecting.


Hopefully you'll be able to keep us updated, on whatever you decide to do with the collection.

Thanks Chad

Those are definitely the C52's. There are a few of us here building the set, but not many (I am one of them, love the cards).

Johnson is probably over half the value of the entire batch these days. It's a tough card and Johnson is a big name.

Attell and Jeffries can sometimes carry small premiums.

I don't think the series 2 cards are any tougher than series 1, just happen to be less of them in this particular batch.

Thanks again for the information. That's pretty exciting. I have some prior relative to thank for putting them in an "album" and others for keeping them safe. Here are copies of my Jack Johnson cards. I am hoping that my attempt at attaching these cards works.

As I am new to this I am not aware of what the pop reports are?

POP = population report. The count of cards graded and slabbed by an authentication firm. There are many more cards out there not slabbed, but there’s not really a way to track those effectively. The second Johnson Chad posted is a graded example like this.

The corners aren’t perfect, the registration is off (the yellow at top, the line above his arm, the colors aren’t aligned quite right) but it’s a nice copy. You’ll probably get over $1,000 for it in this market.

Thanks again for all the help. I will be looking into selling this collection - I'm busy with other endeavors so do not plan to add this one. Any guidance regarding the best ways to do this selling would be appreciated. If any of you who have been so helpful are looking to get certain cards that may an option although I will probably be looking to sell them mainly as a set. If anyone wishes for me to post additional pictures of some of the other cards please let me know.

I did notice over on the C52 thread that there were a few people also interested in this set of cards. It looked like a few of you guys have been in touch with them so I wonder if they might be interested in some of these cards. I'd be interested in any fair offers that somehow gets these cards to appropriate people.

Hi Dave - I sent you a PM about the group, in case you didn't get it....

Thanks,
Scott

I didn't buy these, but they sold on eBay for $8.50. Just thought they were pretty cool and unique, the background has been peeled off carefully around the picture, with the fencing and cityscape left behind. I enjoy seeing the time and effort kids sometimes put into modifying vintage cards to make them unique. Maybe I'm weird...

Love these, wish I would have seen them before the auction ended.

I was looking at a collection of 1950's cards for sale by the original owner. When the seller was a kid he had cut out the team name of the first card on top of each team stack of the 1956's so the next card showed through like the example shown. It was interesting, but why? :confused:

Question..
 

So is a Jack Johnson T218 Front view with a Miners Extra back rare?

You have a T219. T219 is a little physical smaller than the t218's, and reprints 50 of the images, all of them boxers. They are significantly tougher than T218, though generally not much more valuable. Honest Long Cut with black ink is the easy back, Red Cross extremely tough. Miners Extra is a tough set but is doable (I'm 3 commons short of a set) and commands a premium. Miners Extra Johnson's will command more than his non-Tolstoi T218's.

Just documenting that there is at least one other copy out there with the F30 back. I have no idea who owns this card, but while with family for the holidays I found an old hard drive with some of my original card research and notes from the mid 2000's on boxing cards. This word file was last edited when I was 15 in 2006, when there was very little publicly available information on boxing cards and so I was doing it myself for my own check listing. It turns out the original Cloughan I noticed back then was a factory 30, so technically I confirmed it before the 649 even and then.... just forgot because I'm an idiot. It must have been more than the meager dollars I could put together back then, pretty sure it was not listed as an error.

Worst of all, this document has a log I apparently made of all my boxing bids from this time period. It is a little depressing to see my notations of just how little I paid for things, and the things I let go because I only had like $10 a week to spend on cards. Wasn't that long ago, but would love to still get Silvers for $3 a pop.

Most frustratingly I noted the sale of a "blank back Jack Johnson (Blue) T218 that appears to be cut from an advertising poster" but either didn't save the image, or that image has been corrupted on this old drive.