Actually, Travis, that machine would be ideal for the examination of that "foul" Truman ball. It would show right away any adulteration or addition to the writing.

I've known John for many years and would be surprised to learn he'd be involved in anything so despicable. I would expect he'd have some thing to say about it.

i just wish he would say something, instead, its silence and i dont know why.

eac gallery's position is that it was 7 years ago, so just let it go.

yes, it would be ideal to look at the foul truman ball, but the ball is so foul the machine will implode. since the ball had "provenance john reznikoff" listed with it when it was put up for auction by eac gallery, i would think eac vetted the provenance at the time, or at least looked at it.

Wonder why they took the Pawn Stars video down, can't find it anywhere.

Probably because it made Rick look like a greedy idiot?

Any event, he got stuck with what appears to be a bogus item with questionable provenance, but what the hey - he makes a kabillion bucks a year with his show so he can write it off, hop in his Bentley, sign a few autographs and go eat at the Brown Derby, Le Canard en Merde, or wherever those guys strap on the feedbag.

He'll likely be joined by the the same people who foist these frauds on unsuspecting suckers...like him...who are more driven by greed ("It's a steal!") than by intelligence.

And that, dear friends, is why the autograph industry, especially in baseball, rock, and pop culture, has turned to sh_t.

The hard truth.

It really is a sad state of affairs, its pushing autographs for profit at all costs.

More and more people don't care if the autograph is really real, just that it can get a certificate, that it gets passed, that's good enough for them.

It's all treated as a game, you have to play the game. If Grad or Spence say good, it's good and you have won the lottery, if they say bad, then it's bad no matter if you saw it signed in front of you.

Two people get to decide for all of us whether or not autographs are good.

Both have passed wife signed sonny liston autographs as good until some "lowlifes" i.e. real collectors notified them and the auction houses that they were wife signed and not signed by Sonny. We get called rabblerousers and undesirables who are just interested in upsetting the apple cart that is called autograph authentication.

I would go to a long time dealer who knows his boxing all day and twice on sunday before having an abc service look at it and make their determination, because they get them wrong so often.

One of spence's authenticator consultants said the same thing, and when Jimmy found out, Jimmy took his name off JSA's website.

But he's got a lot more consultants who evidently work for free while the gods of authentication rake in a ton of dough by pushing through autographs at breakneck speed. PSA has four full time autograph authenticators, and last year they authenticated almost 200,000 autographs from what I can see. Joe Orlando can correct this number if it is error, but no one has ever heard from him. that's 50,000 autographs per year per man, a little over 4 thousand a month, over 1 thousand a week, over 200 per work day.

8 hours per day, that's 25 per hour. or 1 autograph every two minutes without doing anything else but authenticating, no printing out or signing certificates, no visiting the restroom or taking phone calls, nothing.

Who feels confident that your autograph is getting 120 seconds or less to be authenticated and can be done in a thoughtful and thorough manner? They can't even pull up enough exemplars in 120 seconds to properly authenticate, let alone actually look at the autograph, study it, compare, call or email other people to get a second opinion.

1 minute to glance at it and 1 minute to print and sign the certificate? Is that it?

Fast food authentication is what i call it and it's a horrible application to what on paper would seem to be a good idea. Have some experts truly study and use information at their disposal in a thoughtful and thorough way. They have created a monster and now they don't know how to handle it. It's grown way out of hand. Reminds me of the movie King Kong.

They took a business model of pushing them through and finding out ways to get more autographs in and push them through faster and faster, they forgot what it was suppose to be all about. 4 people at 50 thousand autographs per year per man?

If someone dumped 50,000 boxing autographs on my lap at once, which would be a stack to reach the ceiling several times over, and told me I have 1 year to authenticate them, I would laugh and tell them to take a hike. A couple thousand would be a lot to do a thorough job in one years time.

I have many, many exemplars of heavyweight boxing autographs. And if a John L. Sullivan came in, I would pull up a dozen examples, and if that wasn't good enough, seek out more examples, until i was confident in my judgment that i was looking at a real or not real autograph. But it would take a lot longer than 120 seconds, I can tell you that.

Sometimes it might take 15 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes, sometimes 2 hours, sometimes all day, but I am not going to let some deadline push me into making a determination good or bad based on the fact that I have a huge stack of other autographs I have to get to today, and I had better hurry. Ain't gonna happen if I put my name to a certificate.

I look at a few autographs that people email me and I do it for no cost, because they are friends of mine and they have good enough sense not to send 150 dollars to get an opinion from who knows what company, who knows who looks at it and how much time they spent looking at it.

My friend Mark O. does the same and sometimes we cross check with each other, and after I have compared an autograph to 12 or 15 different exemplars and am certain its real, taking 35 or 45 minutes to do so, I learn that Mark compared it to 65 different exemplars and took 2 hours. Makes me feel like I did an inadequate job because he is so thorough, but here someone can email us and get an opinion from 2 people in boxing with over 40 years experience between the both of us, with several dozen exemplars and a couple/few hours of study if that's what it takes. We don't feel rushed because we don't let anybody rush us.

If someone emailed me 10 boxing signatures and needed answers in 30 minutes I would just reply to their email "no thank you, not interested"

the hobby and the way these autographs are authenticated are abominable and it should stop and be done right.

It's like packing parachutes, You can have it done fast, or done right, kind of important to get it done right I would think. But with autographs, collectors want fast, so we end up with exactly what we asked for, and not for the better.

Joe Orlando, Jimmy Spence, or Steve Grad, please come on here and tell me where I am wrong.

According to Heritage which listed certification by JSA and PSA on the listing, both of these companies passed and gave certs to a Thomas Sayers 1880's boxing signature to which their are no reliable exemplars in existance, and pulled the certs only when seasoned collectors notified the auction house. That's what we are dealing with these days.

How can they pass an autograph when even they admit there are no exemplars known? The auction house still sold it saying that both companies still believe it is real even though they pulled the certs because they got caught authenticating without exemplars. How can they make that determination that they still believe it is real if they have never seen one before? I don't get it and I get it at the same time. If that Sayers autograph comes to me, I say 'i'll take a pass on that one, inconclusive", Mark O. says the same, but those companies say "looks good"


on unrelated note
favorite youtube video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQW-63OuE4

Let me ask you this, Travis. When people here post a scan of an Ali/Joe Louis/Sonny Liston autograph, and you reply that "it's bad." Do you spend 15-30 minutes studying the autograph on the screen? If not, how can you come to the conclusion that the signature is bad? According to you, the TPA's must spend a good amount of time comparing known examples before a valid opinion can be reached. Can you see the discrepancy here, Travis?

I've been signing my own name all my life and I see differences in my own signature quite often that would probably lead these authenticating services to deem it fake.

The moral of the story is...unless you're filthy rich and willing to lose your money on fakes...stay away from autographs. Theres pretty much no way to know if a signature is real or fake unless you're present at the signing.

I can't answer for Travis nor would he want me too, but when you "know a signature is bad" & your an "expert" on that particular signer, you can just tell it's bad in seconds.

When it's real, it takes a bit more going over. So when I see a Mantle, I can usually tell if it's fake in 1 second. If it it appears real on the internet, it still really hasn't "passed" anything, only a formation "thumbs up". Technically, one would need to handle & examine the item carefully and actually should need to know what they're looking for, which I certainly don't.

Whenever corporate america is involved, you will get short cuts to making as much money as humanly possible at the moment, not giving a rats ass for the future. PSA & JSA are a conglomerates in this industry with obvious warts. I do appreciate JSA & PSA not passing EVERYTHING they see; however, They are getting too big and way too SMUG for their own good. This not answering questions crap, not owning up to their mistakes by recalling a thing, and "their word is gospel" will be the end of them. I can't wait for the day they crumble.....and with this attitude of theirs, that they can do no wrong, they will get theirs. Think GM in the 80's. (how's that for an analogy Travis) If not for the bail out of GM, I would have got my wish and watched them go out of business. No way is the govt going to bail out PSA or JSA:D

even if you're filthy rich, stay away....get an new hobby.

Well, unless you're around to see Lincoln, Ruth or Galileo sign, better stick to signatures of John Travolta and Britney Spears...Meantime, if you like autographs and want authentic material, you still have a choice: buy a "slabbed" piece (when I hear "slabbed", I think of a morgue), or get an item from an expert who specializes in the field or individual you want to collect, and has been around long enough to know what he's doing.

A closer look at PSA/JSA timetables: ages ago, I did the same analysis as Travis. One autograph every two minutes just isn't possible, and I know - I've sold 45,000 pieces. Yes, the ones that are obviously bad, you can see right away, but what about the ones that REALLY need research, where you have to dig and dig and dig to find exemplars? Sometimes it takes me an hour or more, plus contacting others in the field, to find examples of a signature. Then, their letters mention slant, pressure, alignments, etc. so that means ethically they have to examine every one of those factors as well - not pull them out of their hat. Finally, they have to print out their letter, sign it, gather up the item and letter, and send it off to packing. In two minutes.

One thing Travis forgot - where do they get the time to offer their "Quick Opinion" service? They must get tons of requests, and if they're going to do it well, they have to spend at least a minute apiece just opening the email, looking at it, and responding.

Something stinks.

I cannot speak for Travis, but there does not seem to be a discrepancy here. You are choosing 3 of the most common or commonly forged signatures for him to answer to.

If it is bad it is easier to tell than if it is good. There is a range for everything. Mantle autographs that are obviously bad are easy to detect from a scan. Earlier signatures may take longer. If the scan does not pick up all the nuances in his signature clearly, it may also take longer to authenticate.

Based on Travis' expertise, I do not think anyone would question his opinion on an obviously bad Sonny Liston or Joe Louis. I would think he would hesitate to declare a little known heavyweight, or an obscure signature to be good/bad just from a scan.

actually i do spend quite a bit of time with opinions i give on most boxing autograph unless it is very, very obviously bad, childlike signature. But the ones that are questionable or even the ones that look obviously good, and that is a majority of the ones that get submitted to these companies, i spend quite a bit of time or i will not make an opinion at all. The tpa's cannot afford to spend that time because they have subscribed to a system where they have scant little time on each autograph, so they cut corners in my opinion. that have a business model that maximizes their profits, but i think it does not translate into giving the customer what they deserve, which is time to do a proper authentication.

thank you for your question.

I will repeat something I have said in another thread. When I was on the original PSA team, with Jim Stinson btw (those were some fun times after working hours), the entire team asked to stay over for a second day to properly complete the work we had. We were told no and that we should rush through the work.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. If our entire premise was totally wrong, you would think someone currently working for PSA would come on here and correct us. I don't see anyone.

Why should they? Only a small group of people in the total population know about Net54. By the numbers you provided earlier, everyone can see it is a huge business that makes them a lot of money. They have no obligation to you.

Based on the way Herman Darvick (who I had never heard of before this thread) was treated by you when he tried to explain his position....I would also stay far away from this place.

My disclaimer- Autographs are only a small part of my collection, I think that they are never a sure thing unless they were signed in person and have only once gotten an autograph authenticated. I respect many of the autograph collectors here, however it is just too speculative for my taste.

Jeff

+infinity

Herman, whom I respect and have known for decades, was directly questioned about the provenance of an item. Personally, I don't see how he was abused.

All due respect, you can always collect safer items, such as Honus Wagner cards graded 8 by PSA, or Elvis hair.

As long as collectibles have any value at all, crooks will be foisting bad material on the public.

Wow. You think Herman Darvick was abused? I don't think he was questioned near enough. I'm sure if Morales or anyone else had said the Jackson was good, you all would be all over them. Give me a break.

+1

I wouldn't say Herman was abused either. Maybe we were a bit "animated"?:D He told us the back story and answered follow-up to it as well.

His explanation was thorough and told us what he remembered 18 1/2 years ago. he stands by his work then. He didn't get a chance to reexamine it, but stood behind his work 18 1/2 years ago. Love him or hate him, he came on like a professional to stand up for himself. I have respect for that.

You wont see PSA or JSA doing that...which is one of many reasons, professionals (not in this business) like me are sick of their smug NO HEAR, NO SEE, NO TELL attitude. F them. They have a responsibility to their customers and they shun everyone. Personally, I shun them and would never pay .01 cent to have them even certify a double cheeseburger from McDonalds.

you're right...we would

MoralASS , doesn't have the balls to come here or would we want a guy who passes EVERY FORGERY he can get his hand on. He is a complete loser and a criminal IMHO. He's not a bad FDE, He is crooked. There is no excuse for a guy like that other than he's a complete Putz. with ZERO MORALS, hence the name Moraless. Oh, that's right, he's also an ASS, isn't that right Mr. MoralASS.

I would say PSA & JSA aren't quite there yet....let's give it some more time though and maybe the similarities will continue to intersect?

Auto certs are opinions. This is the only concrete fact in this entire debate. I don't know the difference between Herman and morales, but I do know that no one will volunteer to go before a firing squad when it is your opinion versus theirs.

mr. darvick came on here and defended himself. fair enough. he had it consigned from a collector who got the 'cut' from the jackson family and he was positive the pawn stars signed book was real, so he had his say fair and square which everyone should be afforded.

if the pawn stars signed jackson book is now no good based on psa's opinion, i would think mr darvick would be eager to go to rick and buy it for 13000 and then he could have a 50 thousand dollar signature.

if i certed a john l sullivan boxing autograph and it was worth 2500 dollars, and rick bought it for 500, and psa said no good which makes it a bad autograph in Rick's eyes and he considered the autograph a total loss, i would break my arm grabbing for the phone to take it off of ricks hands and bail out his loss for the same 500 because i knew it to be a real 2500 dollar sullivan autograph regardless of what psa thought. because i don't care about psa's opinion. a real autograph is a real autograph.

I am sure that is what Herman did also in this case. There's 30 to 40 grand to be made off of psa's mistake as far as mr. darvick is concerned.

It's only 30-40 grand profit when two people's (buyer and seller) opinion a.) line up and b.) buyer is willing to pay that much. PSA and pawn stars have a wider audience than darvick, so now buyer's opinion is swayed. You speak as though they are facts, nothing is fact-based in your post.

Nothing is fact-based in this entire industry (except that Mantle wasted a perfectly good liver).

EVERYTHING is an opinion - the value and grading of your cards, the authenticity of a baseball (or a signature), etc.

Yes, and now that PSA (and PornStars) have killed the piece, even if Jesus himself descended from the clouds with Joe Jackson in tow and they both pronounced the book as authentic, still nobody would buy it.

Hmmm...makes you wonder about the power of the "pawn-ticators", as they should now be called.

Fudd - tell us what you REALLY think of "Moreorless"- don't hold back.

the fact is either its real or its not.

if psa shot it down, its toast now to most people. but even if it was toast to everybody and i was the authenticator and i knew it to be real, i would buy it for the cut rate fire sale because i dont need psa to tell me if its real or not and i wouldn't cert the autograph if it didnt know it was real 100 percent. no guessing. and if i knew for sure and issued the cert i would certainly buy it cheap if no one else wanted it.

because every real autograph now has to be psa REAL? There is two kinds of real now? real and psa real?

i dont frame my autographs with the psa certificate like some people do. somtimes the psa cert card gets as much exposure on the frame than the signed item does.

I try to stay away from autographs but I have noticed that the industry of autographs has sadly echoed the industry of collectibles in general...too many people are in it just to make a quick $ and those same people drive up the costs of enjoying the hobby- making it harder for true collectors who are in it for the love of it to continue collecting what they love.

A sad state of affairs.

Not to defend PSA/DNA [perish the thought] but when I sent in an Eric Clapton item and it came back as no good it was accompanied by an email string between the company's authenticators going back and forth over why the item was counterfeit or good and it reflected not only a careful study of the piece by more than one person but a willingness to do exactly what I would expect experts to do in a tough case: analyze and discuss the item. I was unhappy with the result but satisfied with the process.

HERMAN DARVICK COA Shoeless Joe Jackson: Reply by Herman Darvick
 

PSA/DNA is wrong. In December 1990, I sold the first authentic signature of Joe Jackson at my auction for $23,100. I authenticated it. To put the price in perspective, in 1990 you could buy a complete collection of the autographs of all 40 U.S. Presidents, from Washington to G.H.W. Bush, for less than $23,100! It was illustrated actual size in my catalogue. It was bought by Leland's auctions and traded to Barry Halper the next day. Google "Joe Jackson" and "23,100" as see how many websites (including books) report this sale. The authenticity of the "Joe Jackson" has never been questioned. 3 1/2 years later, in 1994, I was shown the book bearing a "Joe Jackson" signature which I authenticated and issued a COA. I still believe it is authentic. In this Forum, Mike Nola, Official Historian of The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site, criticizes PSA/DNA's two major reasons for not certifying its authenticity as read out loud from their letter to Rick on Pawn Stars, "drawn" and "pressure": "Has anyone there given any thought to the fact that the same characteristics that apply to tracing (i.e., pressure points, delays, etc., etc......) pretty much apply to someone such as Joe Jackson who would have been 'drawing' his name based on a pattern taught him by his wife. ... The signature on the book looks different than the one that appears on his will, but the one on his will appears different that the one that appears on his 1941 mortgage note and that one appears different that the one on his 1949 drivers license. In other words all his signatures differ somewhat, since he was just tracing a pattern taught to him by his wife Katie." One more thing: In 2006, I was asked by PSA/DNA to be one of their authenticators. I accepted their offer and signed a 3-year contract. In February 2009, I eMailed PSA/DNA that I did not want to renew my contract and wanted my signature taken off all PSA/DNA Letters of Authenticity issued after the date of my eMail. I have not been a PSA/DNA authenticator since February 2009.

It sounds like Joe Jackson doesn't really have a signature so nothing he's ever signed should be considered an autograph. Him drawing his name is equal to him drawing a smiley face or any other doodle, no?

now mr. darvick is a baseball autograph authenticator, is the babe ruth siganture on the cover of your book "collecting autographs" a real babe ruth autograph, mr. darvick?

Of course it's been questioned. Many, many, times. There is no definitive answer, and there never will be.

and I guess that's just the autograph business in a nutshell David. It really blows

he was a psa authenticator for over 3 years and is now turning against his old company. wonder if spence, his new boss thinks its a real jackson autograph?

Something I don't quite understand here,,,
Pawn Stars, which I have watched for a grand total of 5 minutes, when they had Orville Wright signatures brought into the store, sent the book with Joe Jackson's autograph to PSA? Isn't this the show that trumpets the arrival of Drew Max (he authenticated the Orville Wright signatures) when he arrives at their store.
I would love to know why Drew Max was not used to examine this Joe Jackson autograph. I would love to know what Drew Max would have said on the air about this Joe Jackson autograph.

So maybe there was something going on other than just a scripted plot....but equally nefarious?

I will go out on a limb and say it is a scripted show and the scripted called for
them to make a mistake, perhaps to show not everything they purchase works out. Drew Max would have certainly called the signature authentic and trumpeted the fact that it is worth far more than what Rick paid. Thus Drew wasn't right for the part.

Something I don't quite understand ...

How come the professor could make all of those nifty gadgets, but he couldn't invent something that would help get the castaways off of the island?

Is the above a metaphor for <font color="Red">T206</font><font color="Blue">Resource</font><font color="Red">.com</font></a></u></b></font> ?

Why would he want off the island when he had Ginger and Maryanne there?:D

Sounds like something I heard in a Weird Al parody ... "Isle Thing" as memory serves.

You need to take this more seriously. I happen to know for a fact that Drew was in the hospital because some joker put a spring loaded snake that jumped out of his big black magnifying glass bag like that fake can of nuts trick.

Nearly scared him to death.

My best goes out to Drew for a quick recovery.

+1
:)

Joe Jackson's Wife Did Not Sign the book
 

The current item in question is circled in green.

Assume that it is likely a fake and then have it prove its authenticity?

If genuine, it was a hell of an item to be left behind in a home that was foreclosed upon as the seller stated on the episode of Pawn Stars.

Many scenarios...
Attachment 74162

Attachment 74163



I personally have concerns with the open "o's" in the Pawn Stars item.

The excessive shakiness.

I feel the item may have been designed to fool and then things got carried too far.

The owner may have known the lack of value and therefore had no problem washing his or her hands of the item and certificate, leaving them both behind in the foreclosed home.

No, it was an implication that if you're going to wonder why something didn't play out a certain way on a reality show like Pawn Stars, you might as well question the storylines on sitcoms like Gilligan's Island. Because they're both scripted.

Gilligan's Island had real actors, so there might have been some improv there... Just trying to be fair to Gilligan's Island.

oops, repeat post.

Also note the difference in the "e" that PSA stated had been erased then re-done.

I think
 

The bigger question is why would Shoeless Joe sign that book. The signature can be debated and for a guy who couldn't write it's always going to look shakey. 50 people could say yes it looks good another 50 could say no it looks bad. And u could have 10 "experts" look at it and again 5 say good 5 say no good.

So there is no way anyone will ever know with 100% certainty if it's good or bad.

However. I think the real question is why would Joe sign that book? He has virtually no history of autographing "anything". Anything, other then a few legal documents and a few baseballs, that usually were team signed balls when "he was playing".

His wife did ALL his signing of autograph requests.

So why out of the blue does he sign "one" book. And I'm not sure of the contents, but if anyone is please chime in, isn't the book slightly negative toward him.

No one, including Herman will know with certainty if that sig is real, but history of JJ tells us more likely it is not.

Well reasoned and convincing argument as to why the item should not have been given written authentication.

Often such authentication does offer the naive a certain consolation.

Sure, the item can be sold then resold! There are many trusting fools with cash to fritter away.

That's exactly what I said back on page 7. I can't believe this is still going on.

I asked Herman these questions:

• Why would it be smooth flowing, relative to known sigs? (see Stalwart Fellows post above)
• Why would he sign a BOOK when he was so apprehensive to sign his MORTGAGE and WILL?
• Under what circumstances do you feel someone would feel the need to clarify a plainly obvious signature, especially on a book referencing that individual?
• As far as the erasure, are there other examples of such behavior?

I have not received any answer as yet. I now lean toward agreement with the PSA assessment.

Mike, you need to set your post count to 80 in the User CP. :D This is only page 2. :D:D

I cannot believe this is still going on and it is not even in the autograph section where it belongs.

they only use Drew when there is no authentication that accompanies the piece, if it already has a cert from someone, I believe Drew recuses himself from opining on the piece, probably to avoid dueling authenticators. just my opinion.

:d:d:d

I could be wrong, but they may not be using Drew Max anymore. It seems like he hasn't been on this season. On another note, I believe he is pictured on Frank Prisco's website posing with Frank.

That is a very strange photo for a number of reasons. I believe Drew Max has been photoshopped into the photo.

Very large magnifying glass. Very tight t-shirt.

:confused: