Well, I kind of did sleep with the fishes.....slept on a boat last night.

from my view, I think we are close to weeding out the whole story and Mike is a part of that.

I agree, the "fake cert trick" is a way to deflect. I find it hard to believe that the PAAS group didn't do very well with Mantle, even in the early stages. So, if you make a mistake, learn and move on. No one is very quick at admitting mistakes, hence the Stolen COA, The rock solid Providence story as long as Moby Dick & discredit the big guys, the little guys, everybody that can say "you're mistaken"....

I welcome the dialogue on the board with Mike trying to fill in some of the back story to this fractured group and see if there is a way to move on from all the negativity. I don't know if things will ever change for the better but I'm hopeful.

I get Mike's point in trying to plead his case on this legitimate forum especially since The Kumbaya Connection's one way slam on him (ANL). I would want a place to plead my case too. I say go for it Mike.

Great Question?

Dave, you can call me 'Scott'. Yeah, you post whatever you feel like saying and I thought that since you generally feel like posting as if you are a moderator here, I'd let Mike know that that isn't the case.

Chuck, I agree with you for the most part.

I just didn't like Mike storming in here acting like an innocent victim.

He was a part of the ANL Group and part of that dark side.

I am all for him going after Mueller. I have as much disdain for Mueller as I do Chris Morales.

I've been a target of that group for a long time and any light Mike can shed on that group will be a positive for the hobby.

Only don't act like an innocent victim.

Mr. Forrest,

If I am not mistaken, you had blocked any posts that I make. Apparently you could not resist what I state or my style of writing, and thus felt the need to unblock me so that you may comment.

Would you be happier and my postings more acceptable to you if I were just to make snide, disparaging remarks such as you do?

Chuck, you can trust me on this. He authenticated more bad Mantles than anyone at that time. Morales beat him in the end.:mad:You can add Dimaggio and Williams as well.

A real PAAS has deep coloration all around the egg with even uptake. A fake one has splotches of color and is very uneven. Does that help?

How to tell a fake/valid COA 101

I'm just a rural, country Texan, but I think I can deduce the formula for this, and the same one seems to apply to a lot of authenticators, not just the Easter Egg place

1) if it's a cert that is subsequently found to have certed a "bad" item, it must be a fake cert, because of course they are better than that

2) if it's a cert that seems to be attached to a good item, then pride will be taken in the work, and it is a valid cert

Just what I've noticed over the years.

Mike

Bingo!!!

Thanks. Just trying to learn because I come across them on occasion.

Why would you fake a cert if it does not add to the value of the item.:confused:

Because they are morons!

The best thing is always to go to or website www.paasaa.com and use the P.A.A.S. database. I also except e-mails and phone calls. Unlike many autograph authenticators in this hobby, I am available to talk and discuss issues with my customers or members of the hobby. There are many telltale signs of the fake P.A.A.S. certificates, but by explaining them all on the internet will only be helping the culprits that have been producing this and other certificates.
The fraud and corrupt part of the autograph industry have been using my name, my certificates, my credentials for years to add some credibility to there scams.This and the fakes COA's have been reported and alerts have been sent out in the past. The phony Certificates have been discussed on other websites and also illustrated before.
I was most probably the closest person in the autograph industry to Mickey Mantle for over 10 years. I would work directly with Mickey Mantle and Greer Johnson with autograph appearances and setting up private autograph signings and marketing. I was lucky enough to be one of the few that were ever invited into the inner circle and this has always caused much jealousy and envy among certain members of the industry.
One person that I know that started much of the misleading rumors and accusations was the famous Tony P. I have heard most of this trash for years and Tony has even told me many of the lies including that Mickey Mantle told him that I had permission to sign for him. I now see that Shelly has joined the anti P.A.A.S. fan club, this is somebody I have never heard of or dealt with but I must say that "birds of a feather".
Enough with all the hate, if anybody needs to talk to me please pick up a phone or e-mail me. The truth is only a phone call away.

I have been collecting vintage autographs and vintage NY Yankee material for almost fifty years. I think I know a little bit about "the hobby."
And one thing I do know is that a P.A.A.S. certificate is absolutely worthless. I don't believe anyone would bother to fake one.

David, I am sorry but I think you are wrong, my COA's along with JSA, PSA, GA, Scoreboard, Stacks of Plaques, Mounted Memories have been faked for years. I have uncovered with some help 100's of fake certs attached to forgeries.

Geez, Mike, you roll in here like gangbusters and then you claim (sounding like Todd Mueller) that every forgery with your COA must be an altered or fake PAAS COA.

C'mon, Mike.

Then you play the "Anti-PAAS" game.

You're not an innocent victim here.



When I get home tonight, I will post another autograph with a PAAS COA and you can tell us if the COA has been altered or "faked."

This whole post is a joke.


Jos..eph Dw.ek

From Koschal's website
 

http://www.stephenkoschal.com/testimonials.html

Are these quotes taken out of context, made up, very old, or something else?

"I, Michael Frost President and lead authenticator of P.A.A.S. Professional Autograph Authentication Services have known Stephen Koschal for over 20 years. I am proud to have worked with Stephen Koschal for many of those years on autograph studies and autograph authentication. I would consider him as the top autograph expert in the world today. Stephen Koschal's library of autograph exemplars is second to none and I have had the pleasure of using and viewing his autograph exemplar library. Stephen Koschal has written many books and 100's of articles on autograph collecting and autograph reviews and authentication. Stephen Koschal is one of my teachers and mentors when it comes to autograph studies and authentication. I have spent 100's of hours working with Stephen Koschal as well as reviewing his authentication work. I have always found him to be very professional and one of the most honest people I ever met within the autograph industry. In all the years I have known Stephen Koschal and worked with him I can not recall a single item ever being returned or questioned on the basis of authentication.".................................. .................................................. ......................Mike Frost, Florida


"your experience always brings a smile to my face...." Richard Simon, Sports Autograph Expert/Authenticator

Mr. Frost's bio if you are interested.

http://www.paasautographs.com/credentials.html

Stephen has a vast knowledge in certain fields of autographs including presidents, which I do collect. It is possible that I was thanking him for examining a presidential autograph for me that I was considering as a purchase and made such a comment. I don't specifically recall the comment but it is something I might have said in a thank you to him.

I am not coming in like gangbusters and I am not going to steal any of your glory nor trying take your place as the Net54 Mantle expert. I am sure you probably can find a C.O.A. or two that will be up for debate or deputed. I am far from perfect but I do not believe that any other authentication company out there today does a better or more precise examination. Please remember we authenticate over 1000 pieces a month and 100's of On-line examinations per week. When you find one or 2 items the you may feel uncomfortable with or you may have a difference in opinion with that is a far cry from saying that almost everything P.A.A.S. authenticate is bad. This is just forgers propaganda or a competitor with an agenda. I see they say the same thing on many forger friendly websites said about you, JSA and PSA.

Here are what the rest of the industry says about P.A.A.S.
http://www.paasautographs.com/testimonials.html


Ebay Member id - pro-authentication (1301) 100%

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This member's 12 month Feedback ratings
Positives: 83 Negatives: 0


This member's positive Feedback percentage

83
83 + 0
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Positive Feedback (last 12 months): 100%

Member since: Jan-22-04 in United States

Mike, I depend on the knowledge of a few people when it come to autographs. You would never be one of them. If someone did forge your cert I am sure it was for the intention to insult you. There would be no monetary reason to do it. You went to bed with dogs and woke up with fleas. Now you want to get rid of them. No so easy to do.

Shelly....seriously?

You should be one of the last people on here casting stones against redemption, or trying to better one's public persona. Mr. Frost may or may not have authenticated some questionable items, but you personally sold a lot of forgeries that you knew for a fact were forgeries.

So what is a guy that has made mistakes supposed to do (Not saying Mike did, I don't know)? Can they not ever come clean and get another chance by doing the right things? Or does it just take time?

+100....Although I am somewhat skeptical of Mr. Frost's past...I do respect that he has maintained his composure in this thread and has not turned it into a circus.

Jeff

Good guys and bad guys are hard to discern in the autograph hobby...someone needs to keep a scorecard.

Isn't he still "authenticating" lol. Everyone knows PAAS is cr*p. Please stop this nonsense. It is EXTREMELY insulting.

Dave it took me fourteen years to gain respect from most people .. It does not happen overnight. I dont have to be forgiving you dont seem to be. I stated what I thought Of Mike. That is how I feel. It gets a little bit discusting that after fourteen years the only thing that you can attack me with is something that I have admited to and tried my hardest to make up for. I have earned my right to be here and you can stick it if your not happy with it.Same goes for anyone else that feels like Jeff and Dave. Dave like I said I am intitled to my opinion you yours and you are not going to take that from me insults or not.

Yes Leon of course he does but not in a day. It takes time.:)

I am not here to fight or debate with people who in reality are all on the same side. The insults and accusations can go on forever but as you already know the forgeries eat these things up. All we are doing is giving them ammunition to use against honest dealers and honest autograph authenticators.
I have seen it used and happen over and over again. As we fight among ourselves there are 1000's of Mickey Mantle's, Muhammad Ali's Joe DiMaggio's, Beatles, Madonna's etc. being sold . If you do not need any help here to try to help expose and rid the Internet and auction sites of this garbage that is fine. This infighting and the knocking of JSA, PSA, PAAS and even Global does nothing more then add fire power to the forgers fight. I am not looking for and attention, any promotion, any glory just thought I was coming here to help.

Really Shelly, I don't know how you can tell me to stick it. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. BUT, I am surprised that you find it disgusting when someone brings your past up yet it is in the context of you questioning Mr. Frost's (who I have never heard of before this thread) past without provocation. This doesn't make sense to me.

Jeff

Are you equating PASS and Global to PSA and JSA???

[QUOTE=ibuysportsephemera;1185855]Really Shelly, I don't know how you can tell me to stick it. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. BUT, I am surprised that you find it disgusting when someone brings your past up yet it is in the context of you questioning Mr. Frost's (who I have never heard of before this thread) past without provocation. This doesn't make sense to me.

Jeff[/QUOTe
You might not of heard about him but I have for a lot of years. If you can only bring up my past then you dont know me either. I am talking about the present with Mr. Frost. Untill they turned on him he was there best friend . My past is mine and I have to live with it which I have done. Mr Frost has to live with what he has done.
I don't find it disguting that you bring up my past. I find it disgusting that you have to use it in an agruement. I said the truth the past has nothing to do with that.

That's a really nutty statement.

It sounded like you came here to air a bunch of dirty laundry because you felt like you had personally gotten a bad deal from these guys. That's fine, but I doubt it's helping anyone here.

I have a ton of respect for Shelly, Dave.

He paid a heavy price for what he did. Not only that, but Shelly has never never stuck his head in the sand and hid from anyone. He withstood a ton of bashing and has gained the respect of a lot of people and he is still here.

Shelly also possesses a ton of wealth and knowledge of the hobby and he shares that knowledge with the hobby.

Shelly also gained a ton of respect from a few in the FBI.

You can bash Shelly all you want, but he's not going anywhere and I'm proud to call him my friend.

With all of the bad grammar and dozens of spelling errors in this thread, I am surprised that any of these people can authenticate anything. Shouldn't the basic ability to spell be a prerequisite for becoming an authenticator of autographs?

This discussion is going nowhere, as long as these people continue with their mindless backbiting and blind defense of their own personal agendas. The Autograph Forum has become the virtual mosh pit of Net54. I cannot fathom why any new collectors would choose to enter into this arena.... Very bad for the hobby, IMHO.

+1

+++++
And, he made restitution for the bad items which he sold.

We need to work toward a better mosh pit.

http://www.treenosoftware.com/blog/w.../mosh-pit1.jpg

Infinitely better! :rolleyes:

I take it yours is poor spelling.:D

+100

[quote=shelly;1185982]Shelly, I have no beef with you, Dave or Mike (or anyone else on Net54). I certainly didn't bring up your past either. I do believe that "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and will leave the discussion at that.

Jeff

Mike, below is a PAAS COA that I have in my files.

Is this a legitimate PAAS COA or not?

Attachment 114599

Over the past few months I have come to know Shelly and consider him a friend. Clearly he made some serious mistakes in the past, but he has paid his dues to society and is the first to admit past mistakes. In the more recent past he has done a lot of "behind the scenes" work to combat fraud in the hobby. In my opinion, it is unfair to throw his past in his face to impugn his credibility.

By all accounts Mike Frost has made some missteps as well, and it looks like he is trying to make amends. I give him the benefit of the doubt and wish him the best of luck. It may be a journey, but if he stays on a righteous path, he can do it.

At the end of the day we all want the same thing - fraud rooted out, forgers and their distributors put out of business and a healthy hobby for the next generation.

He has a long way to go, but his actions will speak louder than words.

[QUOTE=ibuysportsephemera;1186101]Jeff, Shelly isn't in a 'glass house'. His house is well-defined, and has been for many years. Throw out another metaphor and we'll see if it sticks.

[quote=Runscott;1186128]Scott, I don't have to answer to you or anyone else. This is between Shelly and I and I have tried to end it. I call it like I see it. I try to act like a gentleman and hope others do as well. I voiced my opinion and I don't need Shelly to tell me to stick it because I happen to agree with another poster. I don't know most of you personally, but I can see where people defend their friends whether they are right or wrong. All I said was that Mr. Frost has handled himself better then most under extreme criticism even though I am skeptical of his motivations for being here.

Jeff

WTF - through wasting my time in this thread. Jeff - knock yourself out.

[quote=Runscott;1186138]Scott, I agree..since I don't have a horse in this race, I am also done.

Jeff

[QUOTE=ibuysportsephemera;1186140]Jeff,

No offense, but you have said a lot of interesting things, but according to the rules, shouldn't your whole name appear in your posts??

Leon, am I incorrect here??

Greg

Jeff, we all have horses in this race. I stay away from most of the stuff that is easy pickings for the guys mentioned in this thread, but it's still part of our hobby. For example, the Ruth sig posted by Chris, authenticated by PAAS. Simply horrid. The sad truth is that anyone can simply declare themselves an 'expert' and start producing COA's. Sometimes I just have to tell myself that all of that bullshit doesn't affect me personally - it's only fvcking over people who blindly follow the TPA's. But somehow that still isn't very consoling.

My apologies for jumping on you, but yeah, Shelly is a friend. It's probably true that we cut our friends a little more slack than people who we consider assholes.

This one is as horrible as they come. I would very much like to hear Mike's explanation for it. My guess is gross incompetence rather than fraud.

[quote=gnaz01;1186180]
Sure...Jeff G@rf!nkel

[quote=Runscott;1186185]Thanks Scott...I really wasn't trying to cause trouble. I probably should have just minded my own business. I should just stick to posting about sports memorabilia.

Jeff

It's impossible for me to stay out of threads like this, even though my only intersection with this stuff is pre-war autographs. And I haven't even yet said what I really think of the original post - as the thread has progressed, I have felt less and less need to.

Okay, hell, I'll do it anyway: There are way too many threads started in forums by brand-new members, simply spewing venom against former business partners. To borrow from Shelly's metaphor, to me it looks like a dog with fleas complaining about other dogs who have a few more fleas, the original dog not realizing that all the other dogs are thinking "get a friggin flea collar and shut up"

I find threads like these to be educational for those of us who have not been collecting autographs for 40 years. I had never heard of PAAS before and I also had no idea that Richard Simon once worked at/for American Memorabilia. It's amazing how much venom there is between people who all seem to have the same agenda. It's a train wreck that I can't seem to avert my eyes from.

Dan, after the UCLA game I can understand why you have nothing better to do.:eek: Go Buckeyes.:):):)
s:):)

Dan - I was an autograph authenticator for American Memorabilia. That meant every time they had material for a new catalog I would fly to Las Vegas and examine autograph material for them. That was how I worked at/for them. Now it is PSA's job. I am sure they are finding it as "amusing" as I did.

Chris,
This is a legitimate PAAS cerificate. This is a big difference from the COA shown prior and now we can a honest discussion on the problems with this signature. I would like to hear your personally concerns with the signature and not just negative words being thrown around. I am hoping that your opinion would be based upon the signature and not the person that certed this item.
Thank you.

No doubt...Husker nation is in complete meltdown right now over Pelini.

Well, at least they hire legit authenticators.

I agree wholeheartedly Zip...

........


This is a thread that needs to experience a quick death

The autograph guys are having all the fun :D

Hey, at least they aren't threatening to sue Archive.

true
 

but would not you like to be the one to defend archive in court

That Babe Ruth is an ugly forgery. Looks like it came from Coach's Corner.

Second, I would never base my opinion on an autograph on the person who certed it.

I do appreciate that and I respect your opinion. This item did not come from coaches corner and I would be happy to listen to any points you can make about the signature. I am with you not against you, for some reason I feel you have the wrong impression of me and my agenda. Like I said I have been involved in this industry longer the most and I can do nothing but help the good guys in there quest to fix the hobby.
What would you say about this Ruth signature, I was asked about last week.
Attachment 114675

Authentic.

As Chris stated, it is a horrible forgery. What is alarming is that you "have been involved in this industry longer than most", but you do not recognize immediately that this is a forgery.

I have no ill-will toward you (I don't even know you), but I buy vintage autographs every now and then and hate to see this level of authentication expertise behind COA's. It's the same sort of stuff that has of ranting against PSA and JSA, only I don't think either of them would have passed this.

The irony is that I was asking about the COA, not the sig.

That Ruth was just a side note.

That being said, the Ruth is horrible.

That IS irony.

So it's a legitimate COA on a bogus autograph? :confused:

That Babe Ruth was on Ebay and it was removed.

I am not an autograph guy whatsoever and can tell that Ruth is bad, above (with the cert)..The stroke in that signature is awful, It doesn't flow... as well as the R in Ruth is grotesque....and the rest of it isn't much better. It's all bad. And before I looked at any responses I thought the one on the bill was good too :)....

Mr. Frost,

Who are the Treasurer and Sec. of Treasury on that Ruth signed dollar bill you asked about?

Great question. If you took ten seconds out I think you will find it is on a 1935 or a little after bank note. :rolleyes: He might have no idea what is real but I would give him enough credit to know if the bill would be in that time period.
Attachment 114683

Frederick Moore Vinson