Some people are just cynics....I get it.....He don't have to be nice to me....the hobby is big enough for all kinds of assholes :-p

Is this still true on eBay? I have been on eBay since very close to the beginning and it is definitely true about the first 10 years. Since then I only sell once in a while and have had horrible luck with $.99 starting bids the last 6-8 years. I am sure some of that is because I no longer have the great customer base I did in the beginning.

I would say it is NOT true anymore. Unless you are Probstein or PWCC and run a .99 cent auction, you run the risk of your item selling poorly, especially if there is a small window of people interested in your item. Ebay has completely bungled their format for the past 8 years due to their attempt to copy Amazon. They were not content with being Ebay.

I still don't understand being mad at pwcc for this. There are definitely reasons to dislike them, but if their hammer prices beat yours by that much, you could try, you know, having them sell your stuff.

Speaking strictly in theoretical terms, one might say the auctions set unreachable precedent for other people and when I go to the negotiating table they might point to the sale in order to support an above market pricing.

This is beyond belief...PWCC, Probstein just keep on rolling along, laughing to the bank.... There have been threads in the last 7 or 10 years about these sellers with Ebay issues and ethical flaws, with no resolve, so what's the point? Jealousy? Just saying...They keep right on rocking....Let it die or find something to do about it...

Imagine them like drunk drivers. Most have done it 100's if not 1000's of times, them bam the PoPo are there with lights o flashing. Just saying.:)

I'll give you a couple of reasons why PWCC and Probstein have a lot of
followers and high % bidders.

In the last few weeks I got emails on two cards from different sellers
that my bids had been canceled and the item was
no longer available. One of sellers has been listing 10-15 singles every
few days so when he listed the next group I sent him a message stating
that I would like to bid on some of his cards but he had canceled my
bid on the last one I had bid on. He did get back to me and said that he
had received an offer that he couldn't refuse but he has a large group
of cards that he will be listing over the next few weeks and to feel free
to bid with confidence. Since then he has listed several cards that I
would have bid on.

Yesterday a seller listed a low grade T206 with a $32.99 BIN or BO
it's a $20-$25 card so I sent him a $22 offer that he flat declined.
If he had come back with a $25 or $26 offer I would have bought
the card. I just looked up the last sale of the card in the same grade
and coincidently it was a PWCC auction and it sold for $23.73.

If more than one example of a card I'm looking for is listed at the
same time and one is in a PWCC or Probstein action that's the
one I would be bidding on every time.

Couldn't agree more on the fact they do not cancel auctions to sell directly as being a huge plus. I know I had a seller on here do that to me and I will not buy or bid on their items ever again.

I am not the hater that some are, but we're setting the bar pretty low if the fact that they don't break one particular rule while, at the very least, being complicit in allowing others to be flouted, is enough to make them your exclusive ebay shopping destination. There are hundreds if not thousands of sellers, like myself, RobertW, Buythatcard, and many more that follow and enforce ALL the rules.

My post was more about the fact I trash those 2 sellers all the time. Figured I could at least give them props for doing one thing right. It is also something I feel very strongly about.

You are correct about there being great sellers on here and eBay. I do my best to do all my business with them. I know we(Scott/myself) have done one deal for sure and it was perfect.

I think that one of the main reasons PWCC and Probstein have so many bidders that have a high percent of bids with them is because they are one of the few eBay sellers that run true auctions. Most sellers either have high BIN listings or starting bids that are higher than the card is worth.
James

I love this....I run .99 cent auctions as well.......but the mere fact that my EXACT same card sell for HUNDREDS more with them than it will with me is sickening. I always thought Ebay was supposed to level the playing field, as long as all other metrics were outstanding (ie, fast shipping time, great packaging, etc.).

PWCC probably spends 100k+ on advertising a year. How much do you spend?
And no, I am not good with retractions, but as I look around on ebay, Probstein and PWCC are not any worse than many others. I think Ebay needs to forbid more than 1-2 retractions a year. That would stop a lot of the shenanigans....Just like auction houses have very strict rules against retractions, so should ebay.

I made the same point earlier. I don't begrudge them making more then me, there are some legitimate reasons for that along with the illegitimate ones. Frankly I don't measure my success against other companies or I'd just dig a hole, hop in, and pull the dirt in over me. I measure success against myself, or my standards. Why bother looking at their results if you know it's gonna tilt you?

As for retractions I've had some interesting legal discussions on here about them. If you accept a bid you legally HAVE to accept a retraction. However if someone has retracted bids in the past you are under no obligation to continue accepting their bids. This is in the UCC and is the law of the land nationwide. You cannot contract away your UCC rights either, so even if an auction house makes you sign something saying you can't retract a bid it is non-binding. The only thing they can legally do is refuse to accept your bid in the first place.

Sellers can't stop them from retracting but they can also block them. I didn't say NO retractions, I just said that after so many, you would booted. So, in my scenario, ebay IS allowing the retraction. Then if it is your second one in a year Ebay should suspend or ban the user. I see no issue with that. Two retractions is plenty in a year (and more than most honest ebayers have in 10-15 yrs).

absolutely correct, you have to ban their bidding, not their retracting.

Scott,

Thanks for including me as one of the nice guys.
I don't let the bigger sellers out there bother me. There are enough profits out there for everyone to share. I may not make as much as the big guy but as long as I come out ahead, I am happy.
If I am not making enough profit, then I will try to find better cards to sell.
I will still start every auction at .99 and let the market speak for itself.
If someone is allowing their auctions to be shilled, then just don't bid there. Obviously, there are enough bidders out there who don't care as long as they get the card they want.

So then they create a new account and start anew with a different email address.

[QUOTE=Leon;1725111]PWCC probably spends 100k+ on advertising a year. How much do you spend?


So more Advertising leads to more eyes, more eyes lead to higher sales...
With technology the way it is today I don’t buy it. Past sales are readily available but yet a vast majority of bidders with them don’t abide by VCP cause they really want it and pay 20% over VCP....lol ok.

Maybe a lot of their customers buy from them exclusively? Maybe they aren't even looking other places for the same card for a better deal? In that case, VCP is irrelevant.

[QUOTE=CrackaJackKid;1725165]You can refuse to "buy it" all you want, but there's an entire multi billion dollar industry predicated on that very idea.

Plenty of collectors are only online to bid because the PWCC auction is ending that night. PWCC auctions are an "event". Some guys that would have bid on your Lefty Grove just weren't aware of it because you didn't have 1000s of items ending that night to catch their attention.

It's really strange to me that anyone would expect that they can run like 15 auctions ending on a Sunday night and do as well as a juggernaut auction company. And that's just common sense without taking any of the other stuff into consideration.

Maybe it's because the search function works exactly the same for ALL sellers. It finds CARDS - the search feature could care less WHO is auctioning them off....if someone is searching for caramels, they would see PWCC's but not mine?? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Maybe ...
 

It’s all about the cards they get and the amount of cards they get ?

There's so much more to it than that. Bids will be higher across the board because so many more people are online during a PWCC auction ending night than another night.

Plenty of collectors are online bidding on a PWCC auction but wouldn't be there on a different Sunday when PWCC isn't ending.

Word of mouth also has something to do with it. With auction house stuff, people get excited and send messages to their friends. "Did you see ______ in the new _____ auction? Wow!"

That stuff doesn't happen for random sellers like you and I.

....
 

You guys are making it sound like there’s a lot of collectors who ONLY do business with PWCC....

That was my thought too. The top card has a very thin border at the top.

I believe that to be true.

I will qualify by saying that I could be wrong, but I think that we are more educated than most collectors (present company excluded), and therefore, we look at the hobby through our prism. If I go back 5 years when I got back into the hobby, I saw plenty of advertisements for PWCC even before I joined this site. I then put them into my search on Ebay after seeing a couple of their auctions. As a result, I get a notification every time that their auction starts. I might not be looking for something specific, but I look at their auction every month and something might catch my fancy and I will make a bid. As time has gone on, my want list has gotten tighter and I tend to do the search by card, but at first, it was by the seller. In addition, in 2012, I had no idea what VCP was and figured if there were a lot of bids on a card, it was a good card and the price would actualize at the market rate.

My son has been doing some buying and selling of clothes and shoes on ebay while at college. Today, He called me and told me that he bought some high end jacket for $408 from a company and called me excited. I lectured him for a few minutes and he informed me that he would double his money. He then called me back 30 MINUTES LATER to tell me that he had sold it for $930 as a BIN. So, after fees, he cleared $429. I was happy for him and terrified at the same time because he will continue to do this. My point to him when I was lecturing him was "why would someone pay $930 when they could buy it themselves for $408?" His response was "Rich kids are lazy". This is probably a stretch, but I assume a perfect market and educated consumer and sometimes they just aren't.

Poor comparison one is a 6 one is a 7
 

This is not a great comparison, a bump up in grade even just one level can sometimes mean 2-3 times or even more jump in price. This complaint makes little to no sense to me.

There is something gong on with prices either way as I have see some auctions on EBay just not looking right the last few years - at least with the bidding process

Have been on eBay a long time and maybe due to the fact the eBay may not being doing their on record collecting or at least just not looking - some of the large auction sellers on eBay are having similar issues some of larger auction houses have had the last 10 years or so

Learn about what your buying - if price is too high do not bid - always other stuff to buy!

Good luck collecting

Jimmy

Usually from 8-9 I would agree with you....6 to 7?? No way.

Bobby it may depend on what card is going from a 6 to a 7. I'd wager a 1910's-20's caramel card moving from 6 to 7 is a major upswing in price

A T206 common from a PSA 6 to a PSA 7 is about PSA 6 $225- PSA 7 $600, if it's a low population common, much more....

The jump isn't always at the same level
 

Bobby it is in no way always an 8 to 9. You are sorely mistaken if you think that is always where the jump in price is. Some issues it is 6-7 some 7-8 some 8-9 and some 9-10. It is not an exact science. The older sets it tends to be lower. The jump from and 8 to a 9 in This set may be more then 3x. I wouldn't be shocked. There is no rule of when or where the jump happens. Heck it can even vary on certain cards within the same set. Your logic and this whole argument is just silly and borderline ignorant. Also anyone thinking that PWCC or any of the other mega sellers don't get more eyes on their auctions, are you stupid? Go to a mall sometime different retailers can have the same item at different levels and sometimes it will sell as well in one store with a higher price as another where its cheaper. Not everyone is always buying on price. Some buy on convenience, and with the added aspect here of online, some just want to deal with companies they know and trust will get them their purchase secure and in a timely manner. PWCC for all their flaws is excellent at this. Honestly not sure why a few of you have this for your hobby some of you do nothing but make complaints and act like children when you either don't get what you want or somebody sells something for more than you did.

This is why shill bidding is so destructive. PWCC can do all the promotion it likes but the shilling atmosphere negates it. Did the Grove sell for more because the PWCC winner was pushed closer to his max bid? Was it just different eyes on the sales? Was there some other factor at work? We don’t know.

I will say this for PWCC, Probstein, etc.: they are procedurally honest. If you win an auction and you pay the price you will get the card. I’ve also won a few auctions lately at low prices but had the seller mysteriously lose the card. No worries of that with PWCC.

agreed

PWCC and Probstein are two sellers that have a true auction format. Auctions cause more action/excitement than shopping does. Like many, I have received outbid notifications that caused a stir inside of me, and at times, I bid more than originally intended simply to be part of the action and not let the other bidder win lol. I am sure that is a part of the PWCC success.

PWCC isn't the only person who runs true auctions. I run true auctions. The Lefty Grove was a .99 cent auction at that. For an $1,100 card. That sold for $700. That got immediately flipped for $900.

Bobby,

I don't think it's really as complicated as you are making it. There is a reason guys send their stuff to PWCC rather than just auctioning it off themselves. Convenience is certainly part of it, but it's all about how many eyes are looking. It is the cornerstone of advertising. You are stuck on just the guy who is looking for a psa 6 cj Grover Alexander, but aren't taking into account the guy who may not be looking for that specifically, but spots it while glancing through PWCC's items. So while your auction will ONLY draw in the few guys who happened to search for a cj Grover Alexander that week, PWCC is being viewed by hundreds of collectors who may throw their hat in the ring. It's no different when you compare the prices that smaller AH's bring in versus REA or Heritage.

It is different IF there is shilling though. No opinion from me on whether or not there is shilling going on.

Agreed

I have never bought an item on ebay based on the seller. I buy items on ebay based on the item and the price. And I do not think it is credible to suggest that PWCC does better because people know their brands or are even treating their auctions like an event.

Doesn't everybody have their eBay saved searches emailed to them every morning?

Doesn't everybody just place snipes on those items at the time instead of manually placing a bid like it's 1998?

It's very difficult for me to believe that "stuff" is trumped by "seller" when all of the evidence almost universally points to "stuff" trumping "seller." The current proliferation of on-line auction houses dealing with pre-war cards can only exist in a world where "stuff" is driving the value. Otherwise consignors would naturally gravitate to one or two auction houses.

Instead, I believe the anonymity of ebay bidders shields shenanigans that would otherwise be eliminated by reputable auction houses.

As much as I want to believe this is false, I do think this is true.

Ok, I am stumped at how this is unclear. I will use an example: I am not specifically looking for a USC Lefty Grove, but it's a card on my list to buy if I ever find a nice one. I see that PWCC has an auction. So, I go to "view seller's other items" and scroll down the list of 1,000's of cards. Why? Because they always have a ton of cool stuff. If you don't think their auctions are an event, you are fooling yourself.

"Oh wow" I proclaim, "that's a nice Lefty Grove PSA 6! I think I shall put it on my watch list." Meanwhile, on the other side of the country, another collector does the same thing. Low and behold, he and I compete over the card and I win it for $1,120.00 because our competition drove it up. That happens with PWCC and Probstein. That DOES NOT happen with Bobfromnet54 with a feedback of 124.

As I said before, if a guy happens to be looking specifically for a USC Lefty Grove, then he will find Bobfromnet54's card and put it on his watch list. But this will only happen if he is specifically looking for that card AT THE PRECISE TIME that Bobfromnet54's auction is going on. And now, said collector will probably have less competition for the card unless someone else is looking for the precise card at the same time.

A USC Lefty Grove is a very nice card, but it's not a Goudey Ruth where dozens of people are searching for them daily. In short, all it takes at an auction is two guys who want a card. The more people who want it, the more competition. Most collectors look at PWCC's newest auctions. More eyes= more buyers= more competition= higher price sale than what Bobfromnet54 got.

I agree with Orly in that sometimes I view PWCC...or others sellers cards after viewing something that initially struck my eye...and that because of this I may end up bidding or even winning said item. BUT...shilling has been shown to be happening over...and over...and over...and over again with certain sellers.

Our beloved hobby now seems to accept shilling as de rigueur. Knowing this....bid accordingly!

The one occasion I attempted to use PWCC to make money...I lost!

I agree with all of this. I am merely giving an alternative explanation. It's just bizarre to see "the little guy" complain that the major company is making more money than him. It's like the owner of my local diner complaining that he can't get four bucks for essentially the same cup of coffee the way Starbucks across the street can. I know it isn't a precise analogy, but you get the point.

+10000000

This analysis is missing a critical fact — before anyone ever places a bid on an item on eBay — even in a PWCC auction — they also look for what the value of that item is on eBay, if for no other reason than to try to figure out what a reasonable bid at PWCC is. For this reason, PWCC actually drives business to BobfromNet54, not take it away.

Heck, I don’t place a bid at REA or Love of the Game before checking current or past prices on eBay, regardless of whether BobfromNet54 sold it.

Excellent point. And if this were apples-to-apples it would apply here. However, the person buying a dead-centered psa 7 in a new holder isn't necessarily interested in a nice 6 in an old holder. Perhaps this is more of a grade-worship issue than a pwcc-gets-more issue. A jump from 6 to 7 is huge. There is also a lower population of 7s than 6s. And guys love that new holder: it shows it is properly graded according to PSAs current standards.

I think the better question here is "why would you auction the card off yourself anyway?" Between eBay and PayPal fees you end up paying almost as much as PWCC's cut on a card in this price range. They list it, ship it, and advertise. It's worth the extra few bucks just to not have to do the work. Not to mention the fact that you may get more for the card than if you sold on your own (usually).

Bobby buys a PSA 6 U.S. Caramel Lefty Grove in Heritage Auctions -- the largest auction house in America -- for $1,020 on Oct. 15.

Bobby attempts to flip it on eBay less than a month later, starting his auction at 99 cents and offering himself no protection. Card sells for $730.

New owner of the card sells it himself (not with PWCC) on Nov. 21 as a Buy It Now -- offering himself protection -- for $895, which is still less than what the card sold for in Heritage.

And this thread was started to rant about PWCC. Because PWCC sold a PSA 7 example of the same card. For more money than what the PSA 6 sold for.

Well, yes, but PWCC does not have that nice orange packing tape that Mastro used.

I think that by merely stating the facts, you consolidated my feelings better in this post than I did in my 4 previous posts combined.

I agree this thread was started on apples to oranges. I only entered the fray because I don’t believe you would see such a discrepancy for BobfromNet54 on an apples-to-apples comparison.

LMFAO....I remember when I first got in the hobby....Mastro told me I had to be a member and send them $25 (or $50) to become a member to bid on their auctions. Like it was the norm.

And yes.....I tried to flip a card quickly....I know not everyone bids in Heritage....I thought I got it for a steal...apparently, I did not....MY auction was the ABSOLUTE STEAL. And the fact that the buyer sold it, not ONCE but TWICE immediately for $200 extra......well, that tells me all I need to know about .99 cent auctions.

remember that..

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
well since the cards at issue were under $1000 you are free to continue to auction that kind of card on your own..


I have said many nice things on the board...what i said to you isnt mean, its the truth. Your post seems not nice to me though and you are doing much worse than whatever you wrongly accusing me of...

Maybe pot calling the kettle black..

I'm not sure where you are going with this....

Shocker....Dysfunction due to Brent at PWCC.. Do you guys understand how silly this is over and over?? Brent, please tell me you're not laughing! This guy is invincible, just ask EBAY!

PWCC is what it is. I think their auctions have tailed off dramatically in high quality stuff in 2017 vs. the last few years. I don't see the $25,000, $50,000 and $100,000 cards with anywhere approaching the frequency of 2015-16. Where are the Cracker Jack 7s and 8s? Or the Gehrig rookies? They still have great volume but I think people with high end stuff have wised up. Others can (and probably will) disagree. If you are not willing to shill your auction, and many of us aren't, I think are a very risky choice.

Fair enough Steve, but I dont see it. I would love to see a decline in his business, yet to see it though...

The facts would not support your observation.

If I am not willing to shill does PWCC bring close to VCP? or what would you say are some quick & viable other options. When I sell myself I just don't get the eyes on my auctions/items.

I wish I knew the answer...I really do. Robert Edwards auctions seem to do well, but then again, look at the lot Battlfield won from REA recently and then broke up on Ebay for a whole lot more. There seems to be no exact science for who gets the best prices and what venue to utilize. It all seems to be a gamble.

Out of curiosity, what lot was that?

Impossible question to answer. Cards trade erractically. Sometimes there are a few motivated bidders who are consistently driving certain cards higher. Up, up, up. A bull market. Other times certain cards go up dramatically and come back off that pretty quickly. And in other times there is little demand at all until someone steps forward and gets it for a steal. If it is moderately priced card with good general demand among hardcore collectors I'd say PWCC probably gets an OK price in most cases even without shilling. I think they major auction houses do better with high end items as they write amazing/ridiculous write ups in slick glossy catalogs which motivate people to believe they are getting a once in a life opportunity to grab something magical. And those catalogs no doubt appeal to extremely well heeled bankers and other rich guys who aren't perusing ebay like me all day and night looking for bargains.
Long winded way of saying no one knows. Too many factors for a simple answer.

Lot #1247....there was mention of it on another thread on Net54.

Thanks. Missed that thread.