Andrew: Learn the facts before you make a dumb ass post. No one has made good yet. The guy is pissed. I don't blame him. Frank

1. Slander or libel is only applicable when what you are alleging is false. Since Al verified it to be true, it is neither slander nor libel.
2. Calling him a whiner or crybaby and telling him to put his pants on, or whatever caveman comment you made, only shows your lack of objectivity here.
3. If you can have empathy for one side, why can't you have it for the other? I personally think it's unfortunate for both sides. The OP appears to be a decent guy, and we know Al is beloved.
4. If you bought a nice card or cards and they were lost, I doubt you would handle it very well. I don't know you, and won't judge you by one post, but the tone of your post belies a man who is less than understanding, and who would flip his lid were one of his precious t205s lost by a business whose job it is to sell and deliver those items.
5. Unfortunately, we live in a political climate where we are forced to take sides. A climate where you are either with us or against us. A climate where miles of gray area are overlooked for the few inches of partisan territory. It's rather sad. And it is particularly sad when it spills over into a forum of guys who all share the same passion, and should ostensibly, understand and help eachother out.

I was mistakenly sent a pair of sneakers via an ebay buy about a year ago. I received them and sent them back asap. The seller sent me some money via paypal to cover the shipping. He told me that he was stunned I returned the $150 sneakers.

Yeah Jeff, but let's be honest, if they were Big Baller Brand or even the right size.....

What are you saying Orlando? Are you saying that if the sneakers were the right size that, not only would Jeff had kept the shoes, he'd also have kept the money for the return shipping of the sneakers.... :p

You mean they're not already?! I've never consigned to an auction house and never read a consignment agreement, but there's no way I'd ever hand someone something of value without the approximate market value and clear steps to be taken and payout to be received from said AH if it "goes missing". That's just crazy to me and would think it leaves both sides open to a world of heartache.

Your wrong IMO. The OP has been made aware of what happened and as per Al there is a check mailed correct? Just because the OP has not received his check yet he came here and started to state his case that had actually been settled already but was impatient and didn't make any more calls or anything. I don't care if Al or Jesus himself admitted fault. I 110% believe that the OP should be liable for what he posted about LOTG. Plus not a single one of us knows whether or not the person that got the cards has actually received it yet anyway. Come on guys stop splitting hairs here.

As far as me and the slander or liable.... well I JDGAF. I am not going to hold my opinion back for someones feelings. Anyone that has ever met me knows this. Some people are just to sensitive. The issue here is I am practicing my "1st amendment rights". Just like burning a flag in the streets is legal and blocking off a major highway is also apparently. Just ask BLM supporters and Millennials.

BBB doesn't allow returns or exchanges.

This.

No. It's worse. I'm saying Jeff Lichtmann has the missing t206s. (And that would be an example of libel)

Your wrong IMO. The OP has been made aware of what happened and as per Al there is a check mailed correct? Just because the OP has not received his check yet he came here and started to state his case that had actually been settled already but was impatient and didn't make any more calls or anything. I don't care if Al or Jesus himself admitted fault. I 110% believe that the OP should be liable for what he posted about LOTG. Plus not a single one of us knows whether or not the person that got the cards has actually received it yet anyway. Come on guys stop splitting hairs here.

As far as me and the slander or liable.... well I JDGAF. I am not going to hold my opinion back for someones feelings. Anyone that has ever met me knows this. Some people are just to sensitive. The issue here is I am practicing my "1st amendment rights". Just like burning a flag in the streets is legal and blocking off a major highway is also apparently. Just ask BLM supporters and Millennials.


I couldn't agree more with BOTH of your posts. And your 1st amendment statement. No need to run LOTG's name through the mud because of one simple mistake IN WHICH THEY AGREED TO CORRECT IN A FAIRLY TIMELY MANNER.

They were not only not the correct size, but they were bright red. Literally circus shoes.

You must have missed the hieroglyphics I made in a post in regards to the same happening to me just above^:D. Thing is I was not pissed. I let The AH owner handle the issue and was compensated for what the card was worth. It took way longer than week or two to settle. If you PM me I would be happy to share the person and AH to contact if you need to validate my story. Problem is instead of letting it be he kept making comments about how he was done so wrong. Al isn't going to tell the OP to Piss off but I sure the f^ck can. There are not many people in this Hobby I would take a lashing for but I guarantee you the ones I would do it for is because of who they are to me.(Not related to Al BTW)

It's not settled until the OP receives cleared funds. A promise to pay does not equate payment. I sold an eBay item that ended 1/1/18 and sent the buyer an immediate invoice. A week goes by and nothing. I sent him another invoice. Nothing. On the eighth day, I sent him a message and asked if he still wanted the item. Below is his response. So by your logic, my buyer's promise to pay is the same thing as payment? I can cancel the NPB claim? Go ahead and ship the item too? :rolleyes:

I don't doubt Al sent the check when he said he did. But mail gets lost. Checks don't always clear. You get the point? When the OP has the cleared funds in his bank account, then and only then has he been made whole.

Did you get a pic? Please say yes!

Since my posts fall on deaf ears anyway, I'm just posting this one to get my 700th post.

James I do agree on your issue via eBay but we are talking about Al here. For fucks sake every person that has ever met the guy knows if he said your checks in the mail it is there. There is probably only 1 person on the board that thinks otherwise. So yes if Al called me and said my money was sent I would consider the deal done and closed! I would do the same with most guys here that I have known for a while also. Apples to Oranges comparison IMO.

Slander and libel are easily and often confused. Slander and liable? Not so much.

I'm not an attorney so to those who are please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the truth is an absolute defense to either one.

Also, the OP didn't receive what he paid for and didn't even get his money back. "The check's in the mail" is not the same as being made whole by any definition that I'm aware of.

Sorry can you repeat that:confused: I once had a EO go of to close to my head and am half deaf and brain damaged anyway.

Congrats on the 700 Club!!

Nobody is questioning Al's character. My point is that checks do get lost. If a consignment can get misplaced, why can't a check? My point is still the same. It's not settled. It's agreed upon, but it's definitely not settled - not until the OP has cleared funds in his account.

Not sure there is a guy in the hobby who has more integrity than Al. He is as honest as they come. I have complimented him many times about many aspects of his company, especially with his write ups and the overall presentation on his site and the catalogs. In a short time, and for good reason, he has become a respected auction house and with each auction being stronger than the previous, consignors know they can rely on him to get the job done. I have always looked forward to his auctions despite having an issue with a lot I won where I feel adequate disclosure was not made.

There have been two occasions where I did not get lots shipped to me that I had won and one of those times I received items that I had not won. In both instances I ended up getting what I paid for and items which did not belong to me where promptly returned to Al. I will admit I was a bit taken aback by how laid back Al was both times with regards to the shipping snafu. When I have made shipping errors to buyers on eBay I have always gone out of my way to make it right for the inconvenience my error.

I write this not in an attempt to beat up on Al but to reaffirm what Jay suggested--Al needs some help on shipping which I suspect would also help address the frequent longer than expected shipping delays. Nothing worse than winning and then having to wait weeks to take delivery.

A few things cross my mind in reading this.

1. You're likely not one of the cool kids in the schoolyard, so you have less credibility that LOTG. Unfortunately some folks have immediately jumped on you, based on LOTG's reputation (and your lack of one).

2. I bid in a lot of auctions, but I don't know if I ever have from LOTG. Therefore I don't have a lot of experience with Al. I do know LOTG is one of the cool kids, as there are plenty of positive comments about Al and the company he runs. Therefore when I opened this thread, I was somewhat intrigued as to the issue.

3. I don't think either party is a dick, but it is possible that two parties have a different expectation of what is reasonable. And that's OK. Right now we are gutting our kitchen, and I am having an issue with the cabinet guys to the tune of $500 (which is not much given the $12,000 worth of cabinets we are putting in). Neither of us are being dicks, but we are not agreeing as to the proper resolution.

4. Maybe someone else doesn't have the cards, and Al's dog ate them, or the cleaning crew stole them, or they were thrown out with a bunch of other garbage he had.

5. People, if you're gonna post legal opinions on a situation, learn the difference between "liable" and "libel". Otherwise you look like the doofus.

Paging Sgt. Hulka, Sgt. Hulka to the front of the store please.

Update...
 

I just got off of about a 20 min phone conversation with Al. Time to fall on my sword.

He has located the cards. Al even offered to (vehemently) let me keep the reimbursement check that should arrive any day. (See post #1)
I denied this request and will hold check until cards arrive, then destroy it.

I apologize to anyone that I have offended by starting this thread, especially Al.

I will post further updates if anyone feels that an update is necessary.

Frank Horvath

Glad to hear it was sorted out. Best wishes to your future endeavors. Maybe just a titch more patience. Then again you can tell me to f*** off for the grief I gave you also. Either way glad to hear it's all settled.

Andrew
 

I think you are a piece of shit.

But that is another thread for another day.

Frank Horvath.

Frank,

Very glad to hear that Al found the cards, and an incredible offer for him to let you keep the refund...also a great move on your part not to take it since the card were found.

Seller received cleared payment 12/10 and has been sitting on them for a month now. Yeah, maybe just a titch more patience. Clearly he should have waited two months. :rolleyes:

Whether you agree with the OP's methods or not, it worked. Period. I really don't think he would have received his cards if not for this thread.

That's not a knock against Al, I truly believe it was an honest mistake. But the squeaking wheel gets the grease.

well, that de-escalated in one way and re-escalated in another...........

Congrats to all in the loop who are not dicks who are now made whole..........

Well you know how to start a thread so fire away cupcake!

You gotta be ignorant. He wouldn't have got the cards if not for being outed and and drug through the mud publicly but it's not a knock against Al. Your a tool dude!

I would think that this thread shows that Al is "one of the good ones".

And Frank get's a thumbs up in my book, too.

If I had been the OP, I would change the title of the thread to :

"My sad happy experience with LOTG"

LOL! I'm ignorant? Aren't you the one who for years now has been talking about some secretive computerized card grading technology? You're so full of crap and everybody knows it. So, when can we expect to see this new technology? Don't tell me, it's a secret, right? :rolleyes:

libel? or held liable .....

A few things ....

1) I'd be upset if I did not receive the cards
2) I would have called Al - a reasonable, completely professional guy

that said, I find it humorous that the OP is getting ripped a new one. Undeserving imo

carry on

Approximately 380 more posts to surpass the infamous T206 Ty Cobb Red Background Lenox back thread!

The OP told a story that was confirmed by the person the story was about. You have to tell a lie to defame someone.

I consider Al to be scrupulously honest, trustworthy in all regards, and a good personal friend. And wouldn't it be nice if the card in question is returned to Al and the original deal successfully completed.

I should have read prior posts and delighted cards have been found. Now can we all shake hands and be friends.

You do realize cabinets are just boxes........baseball cards are just card board....now if baseball cards were cardboard boxes we would be on to something..

Not sure why he would want you to keep the reimbursement check. Some may say thats like a payoff. If didnt take that long to resolve like everyone is saying why offer that.....heck could of given a 25 dollar credit on next auction if making a normal gesture etc....hmm..

No it's never been a secret. It's not some top secret government conspiracy. Go and read the threads. There is quite a bit of detail out there about it. Ask away. Your a hobbiest and the scanner is being built around the ideas of what you all want to see. Yes it's an elaborate contraption so to speak but in the years I have been messing with stuff technology has advanced tons. Makes it easier to build more information into it. That's where most the time is spent. The scanner itself is just a high resolution scanner that takes both sides at once, has a led black light adapted for second pass scans. Then the programming takes over and gives a topographic like map of the surfaces. From there you get the screen enter the info, specify the grade, and barcode it with one of those square tool scanners. Once we enter it into the registry the card will always have its unique qualities. Crack and submit 100 times. Trim it if you want. You can't ever remove the fingerprint like data that got pulled during the scan. I also want to include those scans with the pop reports so people can pull up a card if they are suspicious. Hell switch it out with a different card. Once we confirm that it's not the correct card for the holder we delete it from the registry making the label void. Say in ten years that card comes back through we will add it back to the report as an updated card. Then you can always tell what has and hasn't been tampered with. That's the idea anyway.

1952...

That post confirms everything I've heard about you.

Slander!
Libel!
Defamation of character!

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...-slander-libel

Jesus de Christo.... WTF....

Just want to say I've got nothing but good to say about LOTG. Shit happens, it's not like LOTG planned this or even wanted this. Same goes for the OP, I'm sure he'd rather just have the cards.

So, if I were to call Leon (our gracious moderator) the king of the terds, is that slander, libel, defamation of character or something else?

What if I were to to call Leon (our gracious moderator) a violent axe murderer, (even though he isn't, well I don't think he is) is that slander, libel, defamation of character or something else?

What if I were to to call Leon (our gracious moderator) a thief that stole my collection of cards (even though he didn't), is that slander, libel, defamation of character or something else?

What if I were to to call Leon (our gracious moderator) an egotistical douchebag piece of shit and can surpass Donald Trump on the idiot scale (even though we know he's a mild mannered moderator), is that slander, libel, defamation of character or something else? In that case I'd say that's probably all of them....

Let's all lighten up a bit - this situation sucks for both LOTG and Frank. What's going to be really sad is if the check never reaches Frank because it was somehow destroyed or lost by the postal service. Sorry, I'm going to believe that LOTG sent out the check because that's just the way it sounds like Al does business.

Frank, the way it sounds, the last communication you had with Al was on 28DEC17. Is that correct? If so, that would have been 10 days before you made this post. Personally, I'd have contacted Al again before I made a post like this. If things work out the way most of us predict, then you're going to feel like a dick (oh crap, is that slander, libel or defamation). Really sorry to hear about the bad experience, for both you and Al.

In any case, congratulations to Orlando on his 700th post and hoping that this thread will soon die out so we can all get back to thinking that Leon is a gracious moderator rather than any of the things mentioned or indicated in this post.....

Oh, it's over.... that's what I get for not reading EVERY frigging post....

Finally got to the part where Frank posted about a resolution. Gotta give you props, you did the right thing with an apology to Al. Kind of sucks to be in that situation (both you and Al). Does that mean you'll be bidding in future LOTG auctions? If so, then darn it, one more person to bid against.... ;)

Only if it isn't true. :D

I get slandered. Libeled. I hear words I never heard in the Bible.

Huh?? It's pretty obvious why. Payoff?

And Al is just trying to keep the customer satisfied

before the cards are shipped out, they should be reslabbed with a Fra.nk Anth0ny Find pedigree.

Glad that it sounds like things will work out, and I admit that the OP had a legitimate gripe in being left in the dark for 8 days after being informed that the cards were in hiding. There were two postings from the OP that rubbed me the wrong way, however, after Al politely agreed with his various statements about the situation:

"I will scan a copy of the envelope and postmark to this thread when it arrives..."

"I wish you were as concerned for me receiving my winnings as you are with this thread..."

I typically stay out of posting in threads that stir things up, as I have spent decades in this hobby enjoying it at my relatively low level as a hobby and source of relaxation. But when someone that is so obviously good for the hobby, as Al has become in his capacity as an auction house owner, is being treated like he can't be trusted at his words, or that he has to prodded to make things right, well, it just stuck in my craw.

All has been made right in the universe, so carry on...may life proceed as it did in the time before best by dates on perishable items, when you had to decide on when to throw things out based upon the amount of dust on the packaging.

Brian

Shut it down. Thread over. Just perfect.

Well, I saw the first couple posts on page one. Jumped to the last page (13 at the time) to see how it turned out, and safe to say will not be reading pages 2-12.

And you’re not deserving???

This and other nefarious activity will be exposed in the soon to be released "Al Dossier" :eek:

May I recommend the sounds of silence.

Not sure why that's seems like a long time to many. 2 business days before the Christmas Holiday and 2 business days after. Good chance employees took a few days off making research difficult. Not to mention how long it may have taken to get some returned calls if he inquired with other buyers.

Let's just say after receiving a PM from the OP, he has been put on my ignore list (what a great feature)...life is too short to have to deal with a person who would suggest a certain body part of his be stuck in my craw. Eww! Gross!

Brian

Hi everyone:

This has mostly been a great discussion. I thought, now that the problem is on the fast-track to resolution, I would chime in with one last post to perhaps clarify a few things.

First and foremost, I have no issue with Frank opening this thread. I’ve been a member of this board for years, and time and again I’ve seen conflicts addressed and resolved due to discussions here. I’ve also seen many collectors get restitution simply by voicing their concerns. If I have to take a little heat, even when I am trying to do the right thing, that’s just collateral damage from a resource that is very, very helpful to this community.

Back on December 14, I received a payment from a long-time customer for his auction winnings. He included a note, asking if there was any way I could expedite his shipment so it would arrive before the holidays. In my haste to get his package out, I mistakenly put Frank’s 11 T206 cards (which had been pulled for packing as well) in with this customer’s items. I learned this today, because that customer read this thread, reviewed his shipment, and realized he had the cards. He has already shipped the cards back to me and provided a tracking number, and I should be able to turn them around and ship them to Frank by the end of the week.

It is truly unfortunate that this happened, because it is my goal to satisfy every single winning bidder with every single transaction. At the same time, over the five-year history of LOTG we’ve shipped about 15,000 different lots – and as much as I’d love to say we’re batting 1.000, it’s probably more like we’re batting .995. And while it’s true there were more slip-ups when the company was younger and we were still learning the ropes, from time to time I still make a mistake. What I CAN say, unequivocally, is that when I discover a problem, I do my best to resolve it as quickly as possible.

In this case, Frank made me aware that he had not received his winnings on December 20. After checking my records and realizing his lot was pulled but never shipped, I searched the storage area and, upon realizing the cards were no longer in our possession, attempted to piece together where I had inadvertently shipped them. I asked Frank for a couple of days to get to the root of things, knowing that the cards likely were still in transit due to holiday volume slowing USPS delivery times. After taking December 23-25 off for Christmas, I returned to the office on the 26th, hoping that the cards had arrived at their mystery destination, and whoever received them would reach out. On December 28, when that hadn’t happened, I advised Frank I would issue a full refund rather than hold his money, and apologized for my sloppy work. I cut the check on the 29th, the sixth business day after learning of the problem.

There is a second point I feel is worth addressing. During the course of this thread, a few people came to my defense – or at least attempted to offer an explanation for my mistake – by commenting that my company is a “one man show.” I am thrilled to say this is actually not the case. As many of you know, this fall Jeff Prizner joined me as consignment director, becoming the second face of LOTG (Jeff has a better face than me). But Love of the Game for quite some time has had capable behind-the-scenes help as well in the shipping room, and for scanning and photography, description-writing, and finance. I am not the only guy here!

I had a very pleasant discussion with Frank this afternoon, and I am thrilled to be able to get closer to making this right for him. It was his first experience with my company, and I messed it up. To those of you who offered kind words in this thread, I’m super appreciative. But what’s most important is that each time something like this happens, I can use it as a lesson to improve the service I provide to each of you.

Now…on to the next auction. We’ve got some FANTASTIC stuff lined up, it may well be the best auction we’ve ever had. I’d much rather be talking about that!

Warm regards,
-Al

You're a good dude, Al. If anything, this discussion has only served to show how honorable your business is.

+1

Steve

I won a nice Matty in the most recent LOTG auction. I had to wait a few days to mail my check, but did so before the deadline. When I had not heard anything, I tried to contact Al, but had to leave a message. He was finally able to catch me at home and informed me that he had, indeed, received my check...but I had forgotten to sign it :eek:

He was very understanding and patiently awaited my signed replacement check.

I call that outstanding customer service! My card arrived the day before my birthday.

Thanks Al...and Happy Birthday to Me!.

To me, good customer service is not whether a company makes mistakes, its how they deal with those mistakes. I've never dealt with LOTG but I will check out their auctions now after reading their comments here.

QUOTE: I learned this today, because that customer read this thread, reviewed his shipment, and realized he had the cards.



He must have won a fair number of lots if he had to review his invoice to see he had 11 extra T206 slabbed cards. I think that sort of thing would stand out by just opening the package and looking at the cards.

This is said very well. We all make mistakes and the measure of our character is our reaction to those mistakes.

which post there were a few. You the only one that seemed to comment on the mystery post. My posts just observations you can agree or disagree. I didnt start the thread..


It could be a great auction house but he did ship the wrong cards. Also Al (correct me if im wrong) said in his post that he was fine with the buyer starting the thread. So comments on it are natural. It it also my understanding it appears the Al had no idea where he sent the cards too until someone who read the thread told him they got the cards and Al also offered the buyer the cards for free (he offered to reimburse and buyer can still get the cards) I wonder at what price he would of allowed that too ie $700, $1000?

Anyway, im glad it got resolved and not saying any auction house is the worst or dishonest. Measures were taken to resolve everything. Thats great. Maybe what was going on behind the scenes would of been more transparent if an auction house posted here to try to find out where the cards were instead of a the buyer. It seemed the auction house was fine in just returning the money instead of tracking down the cards which is what the buyer wanted more than his money back. It did work out that way, thanks to the buyer starting the thread on net54.

Again, thats my observation. and anyone is free to correct me if i am wrong.

Not Steve but I would guess he is referring to your wondering if there was something nefarious involved with LOTG offering to essentially let the OP have his winning lot for free...

Chris is correct.

Very well said.
Al is a stand up and honest guy. Mistakes happen.

I thought the same thing too. How many cards would you have to purchase to not notice 11 extra graded t206s? 100?

Much more likely that he realized people would be keeping an eye out for these cards and he would never be able to sell them. Or he figured they were just a Christmas gift from the AH.

This is almost impossible to believe, in my opinion. Who gets 11 extra slabbed cards in an auction win and doesn't notice?

Can we learn who this lucky fellow is? Also, were all of the 11 cards returned to Al? Excuse me if this has been answered above, I can't bear to read all of it.

You would be surprised to know how many people receive winnings and don't go through them closely or even open them for weeks, some times months. There are some buyers who win dozens of lots of bulk lots and it all blends together as well.

Same with consignors who get checks and don't cash them for weeks or months.

Some folks have other things to do, or assume since they have the box/check in hand there is no rush to do further.


Scott

There were almost 200 cards in various lots that this person won. There were two weeks of holidays in-between his receipt of the package and the start of this thread. The person is a good guy, a long-time customer, who did the right thing and helped us correct a mistake that was 100% mine. He deserves a pat on the back.

-Al

Gotta be a board member, right? That's what was inferred.

Yeh, let's let it go
 

So now people want to pile on the person who mistakenly got the cards???

From time to time I have done exactly what Scott said - not opened or looked at my packages for days or even weeks because I had other things to do, or, for example, because of THE HOLIDAYS! And I've never gotten 200 cards in an auction shipment as this person did.

The resolution is forthcoming and all is well. Stand down the attack dogs ... We've all got better things to do.

My one experience consigning sports stuff, I got a copy of the sheet stuff was written down on. It was basically just a handwritten list on a form stating they'd do their best and payment should be 60 days after the auction date.

But then, I was consigning a carload of "stuff" ranging from a few probable store model bats that on ebay might have slid as potentially game used, a few autographs, boxes of cards that "used to book for something but mostly don't anymore" and loads of other random stuff.

A local antiques auction took walk in consignments. Hardly any paperwork, rough description and a number. Great place to sell stuff that wouldn't sell on Ebay. Except a big box of 88 Donruss... that didn't sell. And the auctioneer really tried.

Maybe it's different for small groups of better items? Or at bigger auction houses.

I haven’t opened up packages for several months before.

My packages are shipped to a "permanent" address which isn't my primary address. It would not be unusual at all for me to get a card, confirm it was delivered through tracking, and not lay hands on it for a few months.

Umm.... 12/10 to 1/10 is only one month.