I looked at the original ebay post and the seller clearly says " sharp corners" " Near mint condition"
Saying that is very VERY different than sayin GAI has graded it near mint. Seller sold this card as near mint and it came back as altered. So in the case out of the case he has no case.

Why does the OP refuse to disclose the name of this Buyer? He has been asked several times.:confused:

We can block this buyer so that we don't have it happen to us.

Yeah, that timeline makes absolutely no sense at all.

I'm thinking it's a smooth swap of an auth card for a graded one and PSA wasn't involved at all.

I have not given the buyer’s name since it is my understand to use this site I have be careful what I post. The ebay original ad has been posted by someone else and includes the winners details.

I would assume the OP would know if he got back a different card than he sold? He hasn't complained about that, only the removal from the slab.

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

That's how 90 percent of the complaint threads end up Ryan, without naming names.

And I would still like to know why, if the OP thought he had a genuine unaltered Gehrig 7, he would let it go in a GAI holder at a fraction of what it would sell for in a real holder. But I can only ask the same question so many times before I lose interest.

I see both sides on this. Buyer did not get what was advertised. Card was advertised as NMINT along with some nice keyword spamming in the auction title. Card was not NMINT, it was altered. So he's got a legit case for a return.

However, not cool to return it cracked out.

Could you PM me his ebay user name. I'd like to block him. Thanks.

This is exactly why this is the buyers fault. Assuming the OP didn’t know the card was altered (which I believe is true) the buyer took a gamble on a GAI slabbed card to turn it into a big win. We’ve all seen cards graded by low end companies thinking what the PSA or SGC grade might be and for me it’s usually a pass for this reason.

Send in the card for crossover in the slab. The buyer didn’t do this because he didn’t want the negative influence of a GAI slab/grade.

Good luck to the OP

Person that won the card has over 11K feedback with 99% Positive.... This whole thing seems just a bit odd.

Not of it's been cracked out. No longer the same item

I agree with the mentality that being in a GAI holder...the prudent collector would assume the card is authentic. By cracking out the card...the buyer can no longer return the card in as received condition and should be bound to the transaction.

Unfortunately in life today...no one accepts responsibility for their actions and everyone only expects to win...one can no longer lose...losing has become unacceptable.

^^THIS^^ times 1000.

I am saddened by all the people making excuses for the buyer. These things usually only happen when the buyer is known and is in the "IN" group of collectors. So who is the well respected honest buyer several are sticking up for?

I think they realize the error of their ways, but WON'T stop them from asking for a refund to no avail.

Mr $h3rm@n you are a glass half full guy. I figured it was a win for the buyer. Since they now know this works they will be taking advantage of others in a similar fashion in the future, that is if it isn't already a tool in their arsonal.

Well they are just passing the buck. Have the police file a report as suggested by others and the file a report with FBI internet crimes unit at https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

I would also let buyer know what you are doing just to throw the fear of god into them...

Lastly please post buyer so rest of us don't get burned...

If OP did not know card was altered (and no evidence of that is present) then yes no reason NOT to side with him...

If of course he did know, well then that's a different story...

Ryan, I always appreciate the help but that bolded rule at the top of every page has changed. I kept getting the "well, if it is a fact then it's not an opinion and I don't need my name out there." To that I call total BS so the wording changed. Here is the new rule below (been there a few months at least). It tightened up (or loosened, if you will) the rule. So if the OP mentions the name of the seller then his full name will have to be out here. I am not sure he minds. I know positively that the op is not a big techie person as I walked him through how to post before this thread, on a very pleasant phone call. That all said, now the new rule is-

If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it.
.

And my thought, regardless of what sales talk was given in the description, you crack a card you own a card. (unless both parties agree it is ok beforehand, which is not the case here.)

If the OP bought the card in a GAI slab then theoretically he is trusting GAI's opinion that the card is what it is. If the buyer buys it that way he/she should be under the same understanding. It is what it is...

I don't think that either one should "know" the card being in a GAI slab is automatically or possibly altered. What if the card was purchased as a gift by a spouse? Does that change anything?

Based on what has been presented, the buyer was looking for a PSA bump, didn't get one and has now harmed the seller's item. Buyer also seems to be a large dealer or collector based on feedback.. ebay has dropped the ball on this...

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

My point is that a rational seller would not sell a card in a GAI holder that's worth 3X in a PSA or SGC holder, unless he already had tried to cross it, or was pretty sure it was bad. None of that really has anything to do with ebay which should not permit a return in this case because the buyer cannot return the same product he purchased. On the other hand, it's hard for me to feel too bad for the OP who misrepresented, even if unintentionally, the card.

Buyer could have had a sticker from a previous submission of same card and swapped the card out... I guess OP can check that with PSA though..

This. That is the bottom line.

Cracked out
 

I once purchased a Ty Cobb Silk at the Philly Show 2 years ago that was graded by GAI 4 . After the purchase I took it directly to the SGC table in the original slab to have it re-graded by SGC.,The item came back as altered. I contacted the seller and asked for a refund . The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case. The seller took back the card and gave the full refund . I knew when I purchased the card that a lot of GAI cards come back as altered when submitted to SGC or PSA. I also knew that if the card came back in the same grade it would have been worth more $$$ in the SGC slab. But I was also aware that if I cracked it out before submitting and it came back altered the Gamble would be on me 100%
and I would not expect the seller to take any of the responsibility .
I think in this case both parties should take a part of the responsibility
The buyer took a big gamble and lost . Also hard to believe that the seller didn't think the card might have been altered when listed as Near Mint.

John P

And if PWCC said this, EVERYBODY on this site would say: "So you can try to resell the altered card as a nicely graded card to the next sucker, right?!"

If the card was altered and being misrepresented in that GAI 7 holder, the buyer did all of us, and hobbyists yet unborn, a favor. One less mis-graded card out there.

if the card was not returned in the GAI holder, it's not what was sold.

It may take a lot of effort, but items like this have to be returned in the condition in which they were sold.

Once it returned, take pictures and send them in, compared to the original pictures of how it was sold. Again, may take a while but you'll have a good chance of not having to accept the return if it's not returned as sent - and this one clearly wasn't.

However, this situation also demonstrates just how much more complicated all these altered cards are making the hobby now.

I have had a few GAI graded cards over the years...a 33 delong gehrig that DID grade out with SGC.

If you play the game...you have to accept the risks.

I pretty much side with the seller. The buyer took advantage of the current climate and played both sides of the coin. It is common knowledge that a GAI 7 has risk associated with it. I am unaware of any guarantee that is associated with a GAI card. I agree with the sentiment of You break it; you bought it and 2. Item must be returned in original condition.

My gut tells me that when the buyer is identified, the pieces of the puzzle will fall in place.

Getting a free shot at a lottery ticket SHOULD NOT be allowed. The seller isn't getting back what he sold. Not at all.

He's getting back (I presume) the same card, just without the probably incorrect slab which would make it easier for him to resell (without disclosure?) the probably altered card.

So the OP confirmed what card it is, and a good number of board members have been able to identify random altered cards sold by PWCC, so why can't someone other than the OP just identify the buyer with 11332 feedback on Ebay? There can't be all that many people card buyers with that volume of feedback.

Peter,

I disagree with the inference that the seller received his original goods back and that it is for the greater good. How would you address the argument that a card in a GAI slab, at this stage of the game, is assumed to be altered?

The slab isn't/wasn't incorrect. Someone at GAI gave the opinion that the card was Near Mint.

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

Right. The only reason the seller might care is that he can no longer mis-represent his altered card as a "7".

I don't know that it adds any value over a raw card - but shouldn't that be for the owner to decide?

when the card was removed...damage may have occurred. The card the OP is receiving may or may not be in the same condition as it was when encased.

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

If they didn't get it right the seller has a huge opportunity to try again, with them or SGC, to get it into a real holder where it will be worth several X what he was willing to sell it for.

you assume every collector/investor is interested in playing the game with the TPG'ers. Personally I am not! I will not waste/spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to keep "trying" for a better grade.

You can't assume this is every seller's motive?

I have already stated ebay should not allow the return. I have moved on to a different angle which is whether I feel badly for the seller.:eek:

The precedent this creates is startling. Just think of all the GAI-graded "unopened packs" out there....

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

I don’t think that issue is black / white.

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

Not apples to apples...

First off, PSA is anything but infallible. They are the ones who’ve mistakenly numerically graded those thousands of PWCC and other altered cards. They have made more “mistakes” and issued more false numerical grades than anyone. So why is their word the word of God? It’s amazing that despite the mountain of indisputable evidence, people are still hypnotized by them.

Secondly, the card was sold with a proper description in a GAI Holder. It was not returned in the same state. You cannot tamper with an item and then return it, when you failed to realize the desired personal gain.

Lastly, the apparent narrowing of the card towards the bottom is due to the way and the angle by which it was photographed. It is called a parallax view, and is a common phenomenon when photographing at an angle. The portion closest to the camera lens will appear larger than the portion that’s further away.

If the card was scanned in a more traditional manner, you’d see that it is symmetrical. Bottom line is that the buyer took advantage of the system, at the expense of the seller. I hope his name is disclosed, for the sake of our collecting community.

You crack, no give back.

No disclosure (of buyer), no pity.

Just a hypothetical question, If the card came back as a PSA 5 it would have been worth what the buyer paid according to the PSA pricing of the card, so if the card had come back with a grade of 5 or less would the buyer still have tried to return the card knowing he would not have made any profit on a similar or higher PSA grade for the card?

I think a lot of people here, if they want to be consistent on principle, need to revise some of their posts in the dozens of threads involving sellers peddling altered cards in high-grade TPG holders.

I am not saying the OP knew that was the case.

Now that the card is out of its holder, second, third, fourth opinions can be rendered. If it is in fact altered, then the buyer avoided being taken and that is a good thing for everybody, especially future owners of that card.

As was noted by many, in previous posts, grading/authenticating cannot be done very accurately when a card is in a holder, so cracking it out was required to reveal the true condition of the card.

Disclaimers:

1. Had PSA said it was unaltered, but low grade, I would side with the seller. Numeric grade is opinion. Altered is a different story.

2. If GAI's standards were such that an altered card could still receive a "7" grade, then I would side with the seller.

3. If it turns out the card is not conclusively determined to be altered, I would side with the seller.

Then this argument holds no water. Im sorry...you want to crossover....you keep it in the case. The seller sold a GAI graded card. He did not get a GAI graded card back. If I was on the jury, I would be on the sellers side.

Let me ask you this, John. Suppose PSA had rejected the card in the slab and the buyer returned it in the slab. Is the seller obligated to disclose that fact when he puts the card back up?

You are assuming he was trying to cross over. He may have been trying to authenticate. Whatever his motivation, he discovered the card was doctored. I'll bet there are a lot of big smiles at PWCC headquarters right now, seeing how many people think that when a buyer buys a high graded card but receives a doctored one instead, he should be stuck with it, period.

And that, when trying to determine authenticity/alterations, the card must remain in the plastic brick.

Look, I basically agree that returns must be the same item in the same condition. But when deception in the form of alteration (not on the part of the seller, but alteration nevertheless) is discovered, THAT is where it's no longer an apples to apples argument.

In a perfect world, yes, that would be the ethical thing to do. But since the prevailing sentiment is that PSA is fallible; how pertinent is that information?

I think it's still material, people can assess for themselves what it means. But without disclosure you wouldn't know.

Did PSA indicate what alteration was done? Sorry if you’ve already posted this info and I missed it.

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

How many major cards in another company's holder have you successfully crossed? How many were GAI?

Somewhere in here is a statement purportedly by Ebay that GAI is not an approved service which would imply that PSA, SGC and Beckett holders would be treated differently.

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

well said

Thank you Joe , well said

C'mon Peter, that's immaterial. Just because we think it gives us a better chance at achieving our goal doesn't mean it's ethical to do it at someone else's expense. Cracking isn't supposed to change anything, and that would be the official line you would get from any TPG, so taking it upon yourself to do so without accepting the consequences is wrong.

No

In other threads, I thought a lot of people were insisting that cards cannot be accurately assessed while in plastic holders. Viewing the edges, specifically, but also the thickness and texture of the cards cannot be determined with an entombed card.

Which brings up an interesting question: Suppose you send a card to PSA in a different holder. You tell them you don't want them to do anything unless it crosses. They decide it will cross, break it out of the old case to put into theirs, but at that point they notice the edges are newly cut. What would they do?

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer to this.

Whatever the wrong thing to do is!

Right. Exactly. And we probably mostly agree that they should not cross a card they now know is altered.

But..... suppose that happened in this case? What would be the difference if PSA was the ones who cracked the card, initially thinking it would cross, then, when able to closely inspect it, saw that they could not......

Obviously the right thing to do would be to inform the consigner of their findings and offer to slab the card A...at no charge...imo.

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

We had a member here refuse to take back a card that was outed as altered even though the buyer offered to return it in the same slab he purchased it in. It happens.

They buyer bought a GAI graded card at a discount due to the GAI holder. However, it WAS graded. Now the card is NOT in the graded holder and the seller is losing out on thousands. I'm sorry, but once the buyer cracked it out, it is his. This opens up a whole new can of worms. I would be leery of selling ANY graded card on Ebay if the outcome stands.

Exactly. And here is my opinion before my rant below. "Buyer Beware" became "Buyers Remorse"; he took a gamble and lost, and now he wants his money back after altering of the purchase. The seller is not Costco or Home Depot, where you can return almost anything.

Not sure how you can determine intent of the seller was to sell an altered card, or sell a GAI graded card.

And we all are assuming that GAI is incorrect and PSA is correct. Maybe the opposite is true. Not saying it is, I am simply taking a contrarian approach. Forgive me, but I may have read somewhere on this site about the odd mistake PSA makes.

Finally, I have to say a lot of what is going on here frustrates me about some people on this site.

A new guy with 21 previous posts comes on here, tells his story about how the product he sold that was returned altered, and in certainly less valuable state. He is reaching out to see if he is nuts, or what should be the protocol. Regardless of the holder, he sold a product.

What he gets back is (ballpark) 50% understanding him, and 50% accusing him of trying to pull a fast one. The truth is we truly don't know what his motives are, and we truly don't know what the buyers motives are (myself included). It's all conjecture. Then, after being grilled, as a new poster he is trying to play by the rules and is unsure whether he should post the buyers eBay ID. He gets crucified for that too, like he's hiding something.

Frankly some of the replies from the conspiracy theorists to the newbie are shameful. Likely nobody knows this guy at all, yet yet many of us are incredibly judgmental. If I were in his position, I'd probably go radio silent too, and not read or post here again.

I'll probably get crucified too for this post, but I am OK with my position. I'm old and comfortable with that.

So, does this mean that all the buyers of cards in PRO slabs can return them because a TPG determined that they were altered?

Question 1:Why would any card be in a GAI holder? Never really legit.

Question 2: Why would you ever try to sell a high value card in anything but PSA or SGC?

It was clearly already sent to PSA for a cross over, and failed.

I do not blame the buyer for returning it. It was known to be trimmed.

Just my two cents.

The seller is not losing out on thousands because it isn't in a GAI holder. He likely lost thousands when he, himself was duped when purchasing that doctored card in the first place.

And for the record, I do not blame the seller at all - I doubt he was the card doctor or the original submitter to GAI. He was probably the original victim here.


Suppose I sell you an unopened pack of 1962 Topps baseball cards that I bought at a show years ago and believe to be authentic. You open the pack for one of those YouTube videos, and discover that there are 5 cards in the pack, but they are all from different series (which would be impossible for a genuine unopened pack.)

Are you saying you have no recourse? If you come to me for a refund, can I just say, "Well, in order for you to have uncovered the deception, you had to open them, and now that they are open, the deception is not relevant, because it is no longer an unopened pack."

I'm relatively a newbie too and I'm with the seller on this one. He sold a GAI holdered card and did not get the same in return, period. A full refund is not warranted. There is always some risk to the buyer of buying any holdered card (buy the card not the holder, right?) but especially more risk with a holdered card graded from a defunct TPG like GAI. If the buyer did not like the slabbed card which you can see both sides of clearly and returned it intact then a full refund would be appropriate all day long.

I do think the seller should have shared the ebay name of this alleged scammer so that other sellers can be protected.

Regarding PWCC... No one should yet put toolifedave, the seller, in the same boat as PWCC at all. Not even close. Do we have proof that toolifedave knew his GAI Gehrig card was altered? The magnitude of known and suspected card alterations is in a different universe. There have been many posts on Net 54 and Blowout that illustrate the alleged collusion and alignment by PWCC with alleged card bleachers/trimmers like Moser of buying, cosigning, selling, re-buying, re-cosigning, submitting, manipulating/shilling and reselling of doctored cards to make huge bucks off of unsuspecting, trusting collectors and it still seems to be going on today and everyday as shared here and on Blowout. Thanks for the opportunity to rant. :D
B0b Zw.e.ng

Actually, not true, I Still have a few hundred GAI slabs from the early days, that I personally submitted. Why haven't I reviewed them? Cost for me is the major reason.

Look Closely... i answered your questions!

Dankz fir the 2 Pennies ~

First let me be clear I agree that the seller had every right to return the card.
If the card had graded 1 at PSA and was not altered then I would side with the seller. The key here is the card has been altered.
Let's say this was a slabbed Autograph in the $5,000.00 range like a Mathewson cut. And was in a JSA slab and sold on Ebay or in any Auction. Then buyer decides he would rather have a PSA slab sends it in he might even have a PSA auction letter. When it arrives it looks good so they crack it and then under a fold they notice a watermark or a copyright that dates it to 1930. Now PSA knows the item is NG and sends it back. Is the buyer stuck with purchase because the case was cracked? No of course not Alterd cards and counterfeit autos are fraudulent items. And buyers should not be expected to accept them.