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Here is the 1965 Topps Mets Rookie Stars that has a wavy right edge that would result from the two slits being separated by a wavy hand cut which was prevalent in the 60's.
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[QUOTE=Kevvyg1026;2527284]Found one Dodgers RS with a way right edge.
The Law surmise is based on finding both Niekro and Law with a line. Checklist 7 should be there as well, based on the pattern used for every other series. I suspect that a couple of rookie star cards are also there, but I havn't found conclusive evidence yet for those. The pattern on this 5th series full sheet is 5th series checklist in the right edge column, and 6th in the 2nd column. So, wouldn't that make it in our 6th series slits the 6th series checklist as a right edge card and the 7th checklist in column 2? |
1965 Topps series 6 reconstruction
For the checklists in 1965, this is what I observed:
In series 1, col 2 had check 2, Col 11 had both checklist 1s. In series 2, col 2 had check 2, col 11 had check 3 In series 3, col 2 had check 4, col 11 had check 3 In series 4, col 2 had check 4, col 11 had check 5 In series 5, col 2 had check 6, col 11 had check 5, In series 7, col 2 had no check, col 11 had check 7 So, it appeared to me that when a checklist was repeated in the following series, it was placed in the same column as it had been in the prior series. In other words, the even-numbered checklists appeared in column 2, irrespective of which printing, while the odd-numbered checklists appeared in column 11. That is why I expect that in the Series 6 printing, col 2 will have check 6, since check 6 was in col 2 during the 5th series printing and is an even number while check 7 should be in col 11 since it is in col 11 for the 7th series printing and is an odd number. The check 6 variation in series 6 should be the one with the "full m" shown on the back near card 481. |
1965 series 6 reconstruction
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Found this mc of Nottebart, #469. Looks to me like Joe Christopher is to the right.
That gives a horizontal run of Met/Sen -Don Nottebart-Joe Christopher-George Smith on a 3x row Attachment 666990 |
Nice find, I had Nottebart as a possible 4x but this firmly makes him a 3x.
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1965 series 6 reconstruction
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In series 7, checklist 7, #508, is in Col 11 and is next to Angels RS (a light blue border card). If the 7th series slit that exists is looked at closely, that checklist appears to be the large print variation. A look at the back of that slit seems to confirm that because of the number ball positioning on the checklist. For those reasons, I believe the small print variation is the checklist 7 printed in the series 6 printing.
These two miscuts appear to support that suspicion. First, one miscut has a black border card to its left which cannot be the Angels RS card from series 7; the 2nd miscut shows the small print variation only marked up to card #522 (all in series 6 printing). And this checklist should be in Col 11. Attachment 667123 |
Right you are - the 7th series print run is definitely the larger print checklist, so this does place the series 7 checklist in the 6th series run in column 11 and the 6th series checklist in column 2.
Given patterns this would also mean both checklists are 3xs, correct? Even still, there are several A's/Cards that could be next to this checklist. |
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Just found this wavy cut of Javier - based upon earlier discussions, does this indicate his presence on the right edge column??
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1965 series 6 reconstruction
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I think that would mean that the RE cards are: Law (4x), Braves RS (Niekro 3x/4x), Dodgers RS (4x), checklist 7 (3x), Mets RS (3x), Javier (3x/4x), and a TBD. There is a black border card to the left of check 7. If Javier is a RE card, then the card adjacent to the checklist 7 can't be Javier. It also can't be Gagliano (4x, in Col 2), Harrelson (4x, has Kostro at right), Cards RS (4x, has green card at right), Washburn (LAD/CWS at right), NYY TC (4x, Stephens at right), or Stallard (Buzhardt at right), which leaves Krausse (462) or Uecker (519) as the potential candidates. Note: if the card to the right of Krausse is miscut enough to see the any part of the number ball on the Krausse card, then the brim of the hat in the cartoon on the Krausse card should be visible. |
1965 Topps series 6 reconstruction
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Can you remind me how we got Law on the RE? You mentioned a line but I couldn't see anything. Thanks.
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1965 series 6 reconstruction
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Two different miscuts. One mhas a line on the back, another seems to be cut as if an edge card.
Attachment 667153 Attachment 667154 |
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You and Cliff mentioned that the wavies are a sign of edge cards - I will defer to you as you have been doing this longer than I.
We already had Geiger next to Locke, but I found this today and I think it's safe to say we were right. Take heart! There are 131 other cards from this slit out there waiting to be found!! |
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1965 topps series 6 reconstruction
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1965 Topps series 6 reconstruction
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Earl Battey cards, #490, appear to have a recurring print defect near the trademark. It might help in identifying the card adjacent to it.
Similarly, Siebern # 455, has cartoon marks that extend closer to the edge than normal, which might also help identify the adjacent card. Attachment 667197 Attachment 667198 |
1965 series 6 reconstruction
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This miscut of Law appears to have a wavy right edge, so I suspect he is a RE card.
Attachment 667199 |
Well there you go then!
So RE seems to be: Law 4x Dodgers Rookies 4x Braves Rookies 3/4 Javier 3/4 Berra 3x Mets Rookies 3x Checklist 7 3x Based on the counts I have I'd say its still a toss up as to whether Javier and Niekro are 3x or 4x - one has to be each. With Berra in the RE, this gives us Banks and Boyer in column 10 and Freese in column 9. Does this all make sense? |
I don't think Berra is a RE card. Banks has Berra to his right and Clete Boyer above him. Boyer has Pavletich to his right, so that means Pavletich is above Berra. If Berra is a RE then Pavletich would also have to be a RE. Either that Berra was crudely cut from a sheet or is a bizarre cut flaw, the left side is very uneven too.
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Well, crap...sure enough it is.
If Berra, with the wavy cut, is clearly not an edge card, how reliable are our placements of Javier, Law, and Mets Rookies? |
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Ugh, another one of these pops up but we already know the combo, Gene Freese to the left of Ernie Banks.
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Kevin found this one, I believe it has to be Jose Azcue above Joe Christopher, I don't know which other card in the series it can be.
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Found this on eBay. Javier has an Indian or Phillie to his left. His counts put him in the "too early to tell" category as to whether he's a 3x or 4x for me. This image doesn't help clear things up because there are possible mates that are clearly 3x and others that are clearly 4x.
Are we still going with him as a RE after the Berra incident? The reverse of the Javier image just has a razor thin white line that doesn't tell us anything. |
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Probably the biggest problem with trying to solve this series is the card design itself for the year, 1965. Unlike 1966 and 1967 when you could figure out from the sliver of a miscut card if it is a Rookie Stars card or a team card next to it, you can’t with 1965. It’s going to be very difficult to finish this series.
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1965 series 6
I haven't seen or heard of that wrong back of Javier/Mathews. Do you have a scan?
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I presume that is Will's under Mathews? I wish there's a wrong back then of the matching card for Wills
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On the wrong back, does this mean that Javier is at the other end of the same row as Mathews, or does it mean he definitely isn't in Mathews' row?
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1965 Topps series 6 reconstruction
The wrong back means that if Mathews was in row 1 of one slit, then Javier would be in row 12 of the other slit. Similarly, if Mathews was in row 2, then Javier would be in row 11 of the other slit (row 3 matches row 10, row 4 matches with row 9, etc.)
It's not impossible, but highly unlikely, that Mathews and Javier are in the same row just like Howard and Niekro are probably not in the same row. In other words, it would require a very strange row pattern in the two slits for these wrong backs to be in the same row. |
Well this is disappointing - Baseball Card Emporium just dropped several hundred cards from this series, and none seem to be able to help - I looked over any that appeared to have potential by the front image. I may go back and examine all the reverses in the coming days.
But, MAN....there must be in the neighborhood of 500 samples in there and nothing stands out. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...0&_pgn=5&rt=nc |
1965 series 6 reconstruction
At least the nomenclature, "hand-cut", that they applied appears to confirm our header card (left-edge) suspicions for several cards
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Joel Horlen is above Stu Miller on at least one of the slits...
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1965 topps series 6 reconstruction
A miscut of Owens shows a similar mark, so Horlen may above both Owens and Miller somewhere on the two slits.
And there is a miscut of Priddy that looks like Owens is below Priddy. Strange row pattern!! |
165 Topps series 6 reconstruction
This is definitely a very frustrating series to attempt a reconstruction for the reasons that Cliff has already pointed out. Obviously, the individual card placements require a lot of miscuts, and there is really a dearth of those. But even the row patterns for the two slits are difficult to fathom.
For example, we know the 7 header (left edge) cards. These are: Owens, Horlen, Howard, Mathews, Priddy, Miller, and Wills. The miscuts found so far suggest: a. Horlen is above Owens b. Horlen is above Miller c. Howard is above Horlen d. Priddy is above Owens e. Owens is above Mathews f. Mathews is above Wills g. A red card is above Owens (Note: I suspect that this might simply be a color shift of Priddy). So there are at least two row changes in the slit patterns. We are certain that two of the three cards printed 4x cards across the two slits are Horlen & Owens, but the third one is TBD. Could it be Priddy? Howard? We also know that the four of the 7 trail end (last column) cards are: Dodgers RS (4x), Braves RS (Niekro), Javier, and checklist 7 (small print), and strongly suspect that the other 3 are: Law, Giants RS, Mets RS. Normally, the checklists are somewhat easy to place because they usually have some unusual features, but in this series, we have not been able to determine adjacent cards to the checklists and therefore, we can't even assign the trail cards to their appropriate header cards. I hate to give up (yes, I probably am), but unless additional miscuts turn up, or some uncut or wrong back material appears, the printing pattern for this series may be lost to posterity. |
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This is maddening - one more millimeter would do it.
But, no way to tell which Pirate or Yankee is in the same column as Aguirre... |
1965 Topps series 6 Reconstructiom
It would be nice (helpful?, lucky?) if it was Mota because then the red card to the right of Howard would be Aguirre. But, I had recorded that the Indians RS was left of Aguirre (can't find that definitive miscut, unfortunately), so, if true, then the card below Aguirre can't be be Mota.
Freese may have a black border card above him at one point, but there is a row change above the Freese-Banks row, so Freese can't be ruled out. And unfortunately, we know little about the cards surrounding Wood, Law, or Cardwell. So, this series continues to tanatalize, flummox, confound, and p*** me off. |
It’s not Law, his baseball is very close to the bio box as can be seen at the top of this page. It can’t be Elston Howard either, so that leaves Clete Boyer, Cardwell, Freese, Mota, and Wood.
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Found this Berra on eBay today - settles the question of whether he's a right edge card or not - looks like an Indian or Phillie to his right.
I ran through all Indians and Phillies, and the only ones that can't be ruled out because of the 3x/4x thing (Berra being a 3x) or already being to the right of another card are Culp, Brown, Indians Team and Phillies Rookie. Because of the slight tilt, I think the likeliest candidates are Culp and the Phillies Rookies - I think the team name on the Indians card and the headdress on Browns would show slightly. Thoughts? |
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I don't think it can be Allen - somebody check my math, but post 24 has Gagliano over Allen, and in some posts in the high 60s, it seems Gagliano is place next to Owens in the left edge. If this is accurate, then placing Allen next to Berra would be impossible as it would make Berra a LE card which we know he can't be. With Culp eliminated, I think the best bet is the Phillies Rookies, but I'm not certain enough to lock it in on my grid. |
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Yet another 'so close yet so far' - Mathews has a Phillie or Indian to his right. The reverse image has no trace of the adjacent card.
We know that Dick Allen is in column two, so that could be the card next to Mathews, but there are a few others that it could also be. Also, my numbers show Mathews as a 3x but could it be a case of artificial scarcity and he is really a 4x? |
1965 Topps series 6 reconstruction
I'm thinking it is Allen. We have Owens above Mathews in Col 1 at some point, and Gagliano above Allen at some place.
I strongly suspect that Gagliano is adjacent to Owens, which would place Allen next to Mathews. |
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Found this Pavletich today - looks like a Twin or Giant to his right.
Kostro, Haller, Mele and Priddy are unavailable because of what we know already of where they're placed. This leaves Giants Rookies, Peterson and Battey. Counts place Pavletich in the 4x (Boyer, who is on his other side, is in the 3x range, but probably due to high demand we conclude Boyer is actually a 4x?). Counts of Giants R seem to place it in the 3x, but Battey and Peterson seem to place each in the middle unsure territory - perhaps Battey is a 4x and his counts are low due to demand? I don't know why I keep checking the '65s every couple of weeks... |
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We just finalized our will, and there's a tiny little codicil in there requiring my children to continue the task even after I'm gone.
So, I posted this on another thread someplace - is there something weird with net54? I cannot see anyone's avatar images, most posted images (including the one I JUST POSTED) are also invisible to me, and they aren't even giving me that option of opening in another window. Also, in many posts little question marks in black diamonds appear in the place of some punctuation, i.e. "...it can�t be Culp..." Am I the only one with this issue? |
I also just logged out and back into net54....still no help.
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1961 topps series 6
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One useful miscut every month and we might be done in 4 to 5 years. |
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