There are huge numbers of PSA loyalists who dominate the set registry, I'd be very surprised if PSA did this just to appease a relatively small segment of SGC collectors.

Any projected date on this? I have heard about this since the acquisition.

I'd settle for SGC's Pop report making some sense. I dare you to try and figure out the population for a given T207 card. They have the set listed like 7 different ways with no indicator if any of those is a comprehensive listing. There's a radio button to click within each of these to "show old grades" whatever the hell that means. So you're looking at over a dozen different reports.

The 12th of Never.

What we need is separation from all the game cards and modern stuff – and SGC is the only thing close we vintage collectors/dealers have right now. I try and deal with both PSA and SGC, honestly, it’s hard to just pick one. PSA is taking too long to get back, so SGC benefits too and now there are delays for SGC grading cards again.

It’s just nuts sometimes and delays me from getting cards out to collectors at shows that want cards graded. I am seeing an increase in sales for raw cards now, some collectors are passing on graded altogether at some shows. Maybe it’s just the modern card effect that is changing the vintage hobby at least at local shows.

Larger shows I get the interest in more vintage graded cards!
Snowman (Travis) posted the best response! and how many of us have used
SGC for over 20 years, I am guessing it’s many many of us old timers that are members of Net54.

Happy Collecting!
Jimmy

This x 1000!

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You make a valid point. Acquisitions 101 was misplayed. In the long run, I would expect a merger. But, I would have to agree that the long term could be a long time.

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And maybe all of this talk will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A know-nothing blogger mouths off, and it injects the smallest doubt whether the brand will continue long-term, so would-be submitters send in less stuff, or at least delay sending in stuff for a few months. The monthly reports for stuff graded show that SGC grades less and less stuff each month. SGC lays off a few people, and the news gets out the SGC is laying people off. Grading times extend.

The trend snowballs, takes on a life of its own, and eventually they pull the plug. Maybe it takes a few years, but once the doubt sets in, it's hard to turn the corner.

So I guess if you love SGC, it's your obligation, nay duty, to crack all of your existing SGC stuff and re-submit it again to keep those numbers up. Or at least to find more and more raw stuff to grade each month to keep the good times rolling.

I found the Vintage YouTube community fairly interesting a year ago but man has it just become an echo chamber of the same old guys, saying the same old things, and including only the same old people.

Except Southern Collector, I like him. But he's already starting to sound like the rest of them.

But you better spend thousands of dollars on cards on a monthly basis or your collection isn't interesting and clearly you are poor.

^ this. Collectors is a parent company. A parent company that plans to further expand into the collectibles space through new launches and acquisitions.

Don't forget, content creators rely on engagement.

As a collector with a channel, I understand your perspective and really make an attempt to try and bring on different collectors on a weekly basis for collaborations. It's one way to keep things fresh and new. The livestream I do on Thursdays with my buddy Jason called Cardboard & Cold Ones bring on a different collector with a YouTube channel each week. I'm always open to feedback on how I can avoid being monotonous with my videos.

That’s a bit ridiculous, don’t you think?


That’s a little more reasonable.

Thanks, Sammy! I will check it out.

Lmaooooo

Nat Turner said it himself. Multiple times. They're working on it, but it's not the top priority. No, we're not friends.

I've also seen evidence of that being true by witnessing changes to the backend data on how certain cards are being identified to align with how PSA identifies them. One example is the 1929 Churchman's Babe Ruth. SGC used to put Ruth's name on the flip. They no longer do.

These are the key issues to watch our for. When you see these pop reports being consolidated for sets like this, you'll know they're getting closer to launching the SGC registry and/or a combined registry.

Also when you start seeing high grade vintage SGC slabs selling well above comps (SGC 9s and 10s). That will be an indicator that someone in the know is anticipating a combined registry to show up soon.

I don't know if they'll ever finish it and actually launch it. I just know Nat Turner says they're working on it and he discussed some of the challenges involved.

You and Jason are GREAT! Really down to earth, and in no way pretentious. Unlike a previous statement that was made, you guys do a commendable job featuring interesting guests with modest collections (who do not have thousands of dollars to spend). You and Jason are great at featuring inexpensive options for buying cool cards. I always enjoy watching Cardboard & Cold Ones, as well as The 4 Collectors Channel. Hopefully some of the people here will check it out! :)

I do understand the people posting here who are saying it's annoying the way some content creators will lecture you forever and take 45 minutes to rehash a stale topic that could be fully covered in 6-7 minutes. That is annoying, and who has that kind of free time, anyway?

But you guys always keep it fresh with fun conversations. Keep up the great work!

SGC Going Away?
 

After reading this, N54’ers seem just as divided as the YT’ers on the question of SGC’s possible demise.

I don’t know for certain, but I don’t believe it’s likely that anyone in the YT community (including Mike M. “Baseball Collector” who started all this hubub…) have any inside information or reason to be more in the know about Collectors and their plans than anyone here.

I do for my own personal reasons hope that SGC lives, if for no other reason than brand differentiation and above that, true competition in the marketplace is traditionally good for all different type of economies. Including the hobby.

At the end of the day, it’s probably largely a moot point as a graded card in the final analysis is just a holder to me. Should my holder of choice go out of business or otherwise fall out of favor in a matter of months or years - I’ll just start getting different holders.


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As someone who collects all PSA SGC and Beckett in modern and pre-war, i can say it’s very clear which brand gets the premium on a sale…

If there was the same card in psa 10 sgc 10 (9.5) and Beckett 9.5,
The psa sells for considerably more …. PSA is the Cadillac when buyers are concerned and PSA clearly knows this…if SGC is kept, it will be the “second fiddle” in PSAs eyes with lesser fees but less value in the same grade as PSA …

This doesn’t pertain to Old Judge….SGC is the master of this era, but as soon as you get to the monster, PSA gets more dollars for the same grade in Sgc…

It’s not close in my Pujols Rookies 2001… a PSA 10 Pujols 2001 is worth its weight in gold and SGC and Beckett are FAR behind in sale values…Thus the difficulty in psa grading and crossover: they know its worth a lot more in their slab so they have to be TOUGH..

My opinion from a collector who does it all and deals with all…

And even if you “dislike” PSA very much for whatever reason, you can’t deny final sale values…

SGC experts should become the 19th century branch of psa…that’s it

Scott

So if SGC is shut down, will SGC graded cards plummet in price?

:confused:

Plummet? Def no

There is too much value in SGC OJ for the value to “plummet”…

The majority of “old school” collectors of OJ (on this site) won’t care if SGC doesnt slab more cards…they will be content and trade their “old school” graded cards regardless of new inventory…going “defunct” does not negate the decades of expertise overnight..

Well said. I don't see why the value of SGC cards would decline. SGC would cease not because of nefarious reasons, but due to a business decision.

The obvious key will be having enough active buyers who still want stuff in SGC slabs such that prices continue to be supported. That likely will be the case for 6 months, 2 years, maybe even 5 years out. At some point, whether that’s 10 years or 20 years or more down the line, those collectors will decline due to exiting the hobby, dying off, or forgetting that they ever existed.

I think if SGC goes defunct, there will be a major movement to cross cards in their holders. Not everyone of course. And eventually, people will wonder if SGC cards that come on the market are those that would not cross, which could devalue them. I just don't see a long term robust market for a discontinued brand.

You DO realize that if PSA is left without a viable competitor, they will have absolutely no incentive to perform. Their wait times will get even longer, their prices will escalate even higher, their inconsistency will get even worse, and their dreadful customer service will become non-existent. I'd also bet that we'll see even more crumpled baggies instead of slabs that actually fit the card.

If a monopolistic company has no viable competition, there are no checks and balances to keep them honest. Not good for the hobby (errrr, business), and while it may be good for Collectors (the company), it would be a disaster for collectors of the human variety.

So this is not something that even the most diehard PSA Apologist should celebrate. Things would be worse for everyone.

Who is their competition now?

Beckett!!!

lol.

Yes, this is precisely what would happen. SGC prices would decline at a rate proportional to the probability of them crossing over to PSA slabs in the same grade. As time goes on, that probability gets lower and lower. Unfortunately though, since PSA has moved to the goal posts ~2 full grades lower for most cards, that means almost nothing crosses over these days already. So something would have to change fast to keep their prices from plummeting rather quickly. It won't take long for every youtuber to realize that they went 1 for 15 on crossovers, and that's not an exaggeration.

We're already past that point though. The reason SGC, CGC, and now MBA are all growing quickly is precisely because of how incompetent PSA has become.

I am sure favored insiders would do fine on crossovers, and maybe that is already happening. The common man though? Uh, probably not.

Does anyone even try to crossover to PSA anymore? I thought people cracked and rolled the dice if they wanted a chance at a equal or greater grade.

I'm long CGC. They have the heritage grading other things well for a long time; stable, deep pocketed ownership; and from my perspective, very competent on the technical side of grading.

Do they market themselves well, perhaps not. But if the goal is to buy a card and trust the grading, I think CGC is right there.

Risky on a valuable card unless you are an insider. So many altered cards out there in holders.

What will being long for CGC get you? The answer imho is the same as where
we are right now with SGC. They have been around for 20-25 years and we
are at a point where their future is being questioned and may be in doubt in
their current form. Because of this, the long term concern of value for the cards left in the SGC holder has the potential to slide.

CGC has been around a short time grading cards and don't have a
strong brand following for their graded cards. Their a long way from being
considered an industry option.

It's all a joke. Just buy the card and forget the rest.

i agree!

Not soon enough are they going away! I will be going away from them immediately however. Stay tuned, more to follow.

Was this CGC mystery ever solved?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...86229b048e.jpg

How many key vintage cards that look great for their conditions do we see graded in CSG Holders in the big guys Auctions? Like REA, Heritage, And Memory Lane…I can’t think of many. Once that starts happening I may take them seriously as being a viable option.

Agree. Outside of maybe one auction house, I haven't seen CSG cards in any of the major auctions.

I do see them at shows, but mainly on Pokemon and other TPG. A few vintage, but very rare.

There's no supply because there's no demand, and there's no demand because there's no supply.

Exactly Same here….

I get a ton of Pokémon popping up in my Reddit feed because I follow mostly sports card subs. That crowd only cares about what TPG is the cheapest and has the fastest turnaround. They were all about CGC until they raised prices and extended turnaround times. Then they became all about TAG until they too got overwhelmed with submissions and doubled prices and wait times. I’ve probably seen a hundred posts of people complaining that PSA ripped them off because they subbed a $5k card through GameStop for $15 and now PSA is requesting additional fees. Some of them can’t afford the additional costs and now claim PSA stole their cards. It’s crazy, it’s like the California gold rush if it were kids showing up with plastic sandcastle shovels.

These were my notes regarding CSG from a show a while back...

6. Red Headed Step-Grader
I didn’t run into too many CSG holders, but when I did, their size disparity had them situated unceremoniously in the backs of the boxes of slabs, almost entirely ignored. (Warning! Not a scientific assessment...) You get the general feeling that buyers/sellers don’t yet hold the company in high esteem (meaning, of course, as moneymakers), and I didn’t notice anyone buying the slabs, especially since dealers usually had ‘PSA-worthy prices’ attached to them. That just won’t fly at this point in time.

There was a time in the not-to-distant past when Beckett was the #1 overall grader, and PSA was #2. Thinks can change very quickly.

I don't buy many graded cards but I see plenty of them at shows, and I don't really remember ever seeing that many cards graded by Beckett compared to PSA. When was Beckett the #1 overall grader?

I can't think of a time where they completely overtook PSA in marketshare, but I would say that from around 2011-2019 they were arguably the most popular for Ultra-Modern baseball cards. Specifically this was there era where Bowman Chrome was considered the key release and BGS 9.5/10 was the key grade.

It makes sense and has for Most car companies.
Ford/Lincoln/Mecury
Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge .... /Jeep/AMC
GM with many brands.

Raleigh Bicycled bought up most large British brands and used them eventually to circumvent exclusive territories
So one city might have Raleigh/Rudge/Humber/Robin Hood/and many more.

A lot of companies also sell their products to another big company labeled as another brand but they're the same product.

As long as it's profitable, I doubt SGC is going anywhere. It probably will change for the better in some ways worse in others.

I still think they're missing out by not doing team color gaskets. Or at least a couple options for some sets that might not look as good with the black gasket like 71 Topps or 1950 Drakes. (I'm sort of odd in thinking I like the SGC holder for prewar, but the PSA holder for newer cards. )

I was never interested in Ultra-Modern or Bowman Chrome so if that was where a lot of Beckett grading was happening it would explain why I never noticed any of it. Thanks.

I cannot think of a time when PSA was not number 1 and SGC was not number 2 in the grading space.

This is correct. BGS almost universally outsold PSA in the 2010s.

SGC didn't become the #2 grader overall until the last couple of years. Maybe if you only look at pre-war, then sure, SGC has been #2 for about 20 years. That's because Beckett tried BVG and it flopped. But overall, when you include modern cards, SGC was never even close to BGS during the 2000s and 2010s. That includes both sale prices, and marketshare. It was post-covid when SGC finally overtook BGS in total cards graded per month.

recently submitted vintage to SGC
 

Received a email SGC received my order, Thank You--I have cards sent to PSA early March, still in Research, ID.==friend of mine loss 20,000 on new junk shiny cards due turnaround time--I have sold new junk cards for thousands so PSA cards do sell for substantially more $$$.--a lot of grading company I have never heard of --so is a graded 10 a 10 --??

You can still observe this if you look at cards like Jeter and Trout RCs, lots of Beckett graded examples still in the marketplace. The subgrades were very popular for a while. No longer. I don't know what happened to them, whether it was just PSA's better marketing that overtook them, they had internal issues, or both.

Beckett pretty much died with the guy getting all the 10s/Black Labels or what ever their best grade was. A least it happened at the same time as I was selling a couple silly rare kinda expensive cards in Beckett slabs. They went from getting a lot of attention to crickets. That was my experience anyway.

Thanks for the explanation. I have never paid any attention to modern or ultramodern issues so I only noticed SGC and PSA slabbed cards and I avoided vintage Beckett graded material due to their grading sheet cut cards.

Speaking for myself, I never or almost never bought a Beckett graded vintage baseball card, I figured there was probably a reason it was in that holder.

Simple answer : NASDAQ and its investors in CLCT

That is their focus with no “competitors in the market” …

Meaning they need to have a successful business model and divesting or closing units is part of being a Publicly Traded Company…

Scott

Ps: my inventions and fda devices are held by a NASDAQ company that I’m employed by as a SD so i feel the demands

Yep, and closing a successful business would not be a good idea for the shareholders.

CLCT is no longer trading. Collectors is privately owned, for now, so no shareholders.

What? Nat Turner took CLCT private in 2021. Ah, Chase just said that right before me.

Off Nasdaq listing does not mean there are no shareholders…

Being on NASDAQ is difficult and expensive…

Does it trade on pink sheets now?

Totally private i find it hard to believe… All the CLCT share holders still hold the stock on pink sheets most likely…meaning they still trade and need to have good business practices/model..

Uh, no. No need to speculate.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...ctors-Universe

A swinnnng and a miss, strike two.

What difference does it make if it's public or private? The same business principles apply. You don't kill a profitable business you own, private or public. Especially when that 2nd business is holding off the competition from gaining market traction.

My post was for accuracy since the statements made were not correct. Accuracy has always seemed to matter to you in all of the threads you have posted.

Anyway, how do we know that SGC is profitable for Collectors? I am not saying they are not but just not something that we are privy to. As long as competition cannot get SGC, absent Collectors selling it to them, it is Collectors brand to do with what they want. The net result is the same.

It isn't even a question of whether SGC is profitable. It's a question whether the overall enterprise would be more or less profitable with a single brand. And we have no idea without inside information about revenues, costs, projections, redundancies, etc. (which only Travis has LOL).

We might not have the specific numbers, but we can get a pretty good idea based on business and market knowledge. There is very little chance that SGC is not profitable, and there is very little chance that PSA would be more profitable with SGC gone and other companies getting some portion of SGC's market share, versus PSA and SGC both operating in the space. Sure, we are all speculating on the actual numbers. But I find it hard to defend the suggestion that Collectors would benefit in any way from SGC being gone.

I agree with the Lawyer

It would be dumb to kill of SGC

Agreed
Giving submitters a choice helps prevent other TPGs from gaining market share. Eliminating the choice would GUARANTEE that some percentage of collectors would look elsewhere or not at all.

I'm sure some culture moves may take place but I don't see the SGC slab becoming extinct.



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Agree with the last few posts - Eliminating SCG would benefit CGC More than it would benefit PSA

1. Always agree with Lawyers (they know stuff)

2. Over 150 posts to this thread (whowouldaguessed)